Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: toomanyknots on March 15, 2013, 11:20:34 am
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I am tired of one person saying "hickory is horrible in compression" and another person saying "hickory is just fine in compression". This is irking me, and I would love for some input to help me make up my mind before I glue up a bunch of hickory-ed bellyed bows. :) Here is a recent quote from Ken on paleoplanet:
"First of all, hickory would be one of my last choices for 1) a belly core 2) a rounded belly, 3) a belly on a narrow bow. I'm not saying that's why it broke. Hickory will reportedly take massive set before breaking (and this coincides with my experience so far). The fact that it takes a lot of set is the reason behind all of the above."
And a recent quote from Mike Keswick:
"Hickory/ipe/hickory is about the worst possible combo of those woods. I don't know how this company gets any business....."
Here is a post from a member Uhu:
"I have been tempering the Belly of my 3 year old 39# Hickory ELB. Through the years it had reached a set of nearly 4" and it was no real fun anymore shooting it.
Everything went well so far. The set was gone, the weight went about 5# higher, and the tiller did not change. But as the bow cooled down and started to rehydrate, on three spots at the belly I saw chrysals similar to that you can see from compression when your tillering has gone wrong.
Why ist this so ? I thougt with tempering the belly is stretched and not compressed.
And how can I prevent the limbs from collapsing ? Can I do some Binding ? and with which material should I work ?
Thanks for hints"
And a reply to that post from Patb:
"Sounds like the damage was already there(with 4" of set) and it just showed up after you toasted it. Hickory isn't the best choice for an ELB (although I have seen some very nice ones) because it is weaker in compression than is necessary for that style bow. A wide flat bow would be more appropriate. "
And here is a reply to a post by Mark St.Louis:
"Actually it is not likely that Hickory will chrysal and even though I have never made a Hickory warbow I have seen the odd one posted here over the years. I have made a number of HHB and Elm warbows though with a D section and none have chrysaled. Hickory is very strong in compression so if you start at 1 1/4" thick you will have a fair amount of wood to remove."
And from Rod, I am assuming the same Rod from paleoplanet:
"A thick, square sectioned hickory longbow sure sounds like a recipe for handshock to me.
And as Marc says, hickory does not chrysal too readily unless it is very seriously overstressed in compression and I would expect a hickory self bow to be quite slender as compared to a same draw weight long bow in Yew, Ash or Elm."
And Ryoons Hickory warbow:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=25657.0
And a reply by Ryoon in that thread:
"Eric, I find that hickory is fine as long as designed well. This one was pushing the limits so some set was expected. "
Here is a recent one I made, which only took about an inch of set so far, after being pushed about 33" time and time again, without any heat treating of course:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38184.0.html
What is the deal? Is it horrible in compression, or is it ok in compression? If it is ok, how did the very widely spread and excepted idea of it being bad start, and if it is bad, how do people get (set wise) rather good looking bows out of it? :o
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It starts with people that have ZERO experience hanging on every word of a few people they trust. Then they go from site to site blah-blah'ing that same info with gusto behind because they feel like they are representing/defending those people they trust, when really they are manifesting falsehoods. I call it regurgitated info. I was guilty of it for a short while when I first started, until I formed my own thoughts from building a stupid amount of bows in a very short period of time.
One more thought. Since we cant all agree on how to measure compressed wood the amount of set is irrelevant. One guys 4" is another guys 2.5". For what its worth. I hold a new blank up to my shop wall and measure the gap bewteen the back of the handle and the wall. I call that reflex. I then build the bow and shoot it 50-60 times and take that same measurement. The difference between the two measurements is what I call set. Its the amount the wood had compacted since the first time it thought about bending. If I start with 4" reflex and end up with 2", my bow took 2" of set/compaction.
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It starts with people that have ZERO experience hanging on every word of a few people they trust. Then they go from site to site blah-blah'ing that same info with gusto behind because they feel like they are representing/defending those people they trust, when really they are manifesting falsehoods. I call it regurgitated info. I was guilty of it for a short while when I first started, until I formed my own thoughts from building a stupid amount of bows in a very short period of time.
I understand what you mean. That is why I always stick to my guns, and always base my opinions and advice when I give it on my personal experience. The thing is, I always read and see conflicting info on the internet about hickory in compression. I respect the opinion of all the bowyers I quoted above, and yet they are not all in agreement. So it leaves me kinda on the wall, not knowing what to think? I sure don't know personally either way. I am about to buy some lumber and do some glue ups sometime in the future, and I am not super sure if I am gonna shoot myself in the foot for using hickory as a belly wood, or if I should by all means possible not use hickory for any belly? One of the things that got me excited was the hickory warbows by ruddersbows. I did not think he would sell a warbow of hickory if it could not take it. My small experience has proven hickory to me to be sufficient, but I don't know what it is like after a longtime. Most bows get set after years of shooting though anyway. I really don't know what to think.
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My best advice for hickory is dont even think about working it unless the wood is bone dry and the humidty in your work area is below 50%. The best bowyers in the world cant make a good hickory bow in high humidity. I just finished a very nice hickory bow for Stringman, it took very little set for a 60# plus bow. It was bone dry and never seen humidity above 35% the whole time. Tempering and trapping helped as much as low humidity did IMO.
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the one hickory i did took 2-2.5 inches of set. I didnt heat temper the belly and its around 40 lbs at 29 inches. the belly is rounded like an elb and it is basically 1 inch wide at the narrowest point (mid limb) And the widest it is mid limb is 1 1/4(other limb) My honest opinion is that it took a large amount of set for 2 reasons. one i tillered it by holding it at draw for a few seconds. two, i think a hickory bow should be a more square cross section purely because the backing will overpower the belly if you have flat back. One way i suppose you could deal with this is to add a more oval belly and then to trap the back. i have seen a few bows on here with trapped backs and then seem to avoid set. probably because the belly wasnt overpowered. So for a hickory elb thats 1 1/8-1 1/4 inches wide i think provided you trap it a bit it would take a bit less set. and if you left the cross section more square or oval. and if you tempered it i would imagine that it would do even better. If you want you can test some bows this way. make one regular(or use a previous one) then make one with a trapped back that is as identical to the original but the rest is the way it was, then make another with a heat tempered belly nothing else different from the original. then make a square cross section one and the rest would be the same as original. so basically make a base bow. and then make one of each of the bows with the different modifications. compare them and see what changed. if there is significant change then you know what hickory responds well to.
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Yep, needs to be BONE DRY!
There's also a lot of variation between staves. Some will be extremely stiff and some will be a little on the rubbery side. You can't make any general statements about hickory except the "bone dry" thing.
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Pearl drums said it all....someone that is respected in any community can make a statement, and it becomes a unwritten law. I go through the same thing with vine maple...."because John Strunk said" blah, blah , blah! No one, can say anything other than their expirience with a given wood in their area, wood varies from place to place. Sure, there are some basic exepted ideas of what a species can, and can't do, BUT it really is what and where the wood is cut, more importantly...what a skilled bowyer can do with it. ;)
VMB
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Toomany,
First off, let me remind you that there was a whole a bunch of dead Spanish and English soliders all the way from Florida to Virginia. They were armored and the natives still killed them with crappy hickory bows and arrows with no heads. Those soliders were deathly afraid of the native bows or rather the arrows. Dont know what wood the "skrailings" use to kill armored Vikings but theyweren't big fans of the Native Americans either.
Second, You can play to any woods weaknesses and pronounce to the world that the wood sucks. Hickory is a damned fine bow wood so maybe folks ought to learn how to work it, eh? That aint opinion it's facts. The Native Americans in the southeast all the way past the Mississippi used it, had to be a reason even in their damp enviornments.
My personal experience with hickory is that it is NOT compression weak, it's just a whole lot stronger in tension.....so with a flat belly and some form of "trapped" back (either trap or crowned) it works real good. If you pick a design that is just the opposite (like an ELB with a rounded belly and flat back) and the wood fails....I dont chalk that up to bad wood just playing to it's weakness.
Don't know why the "mouths" got a problem with white woods, history will tell you that plain whitewood self bows were forminable weapons agains Spanish, French, English and American troops who were more technologically advanced. Usually they didn't get any respect untill AFTER the carnage was done.
Build your own bows, enjoy them, and pass on your experience and to hell with published opinions. Just cause it's in a book dont mean nothing except that the guy knew a publisher.
rich
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Half eye is right, it's not weak in compression it's just alot stronger in tension. I've attached an Excel Document with the numbers. See for yourself.
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that excell spread sheet helps see that compared to osage, hickory is much stronger in tension, but has a bit weaker compression. if you use osage as a base to compare the hickory to, you see that the hickory is imbalanced. Its belly is having more strain and stress on it because the hickory is so strong. A better question might be, whats the ratio of compression strength to tension strength that makes the best bow. you could think of the ratio like this. Two guys are lifting a 500+ lb box. They must lift the box as high as they can. If both of them are similar in strength then the box will be even, if one is weaker than the other by a certain amount then the box will be tilted making it harder for the weaker guy.
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No experience with hickory here, but wanted to add that hickory often refers to several different species of tree. There is a lot of variation in a single species with respect to wood properties, and much more variation when you are talking about a group of trees as broad as "hickory".
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Thats true too. Bitter nut hickory is the closest of the hickories to be equal to osage or very close. Granted thats not taking account for specific gravity
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1) have not read everything here...
2) Just make the bow unless you are planning on using an expensive wood in combination. I've made a fair few bows now. Only one hickory bow has chrysaled. Some have taken some set but .... nothing serrious in my mind. the chrysaled bow had a hinge and I got the belly wood thinner than the core wood. Chrysal happened at the hinge.
Before that I took that attitude that you had to TRY to mess up a hickory bow.
Love hickory. Have made elb's in Hickory and Ipe. both are nice. For the price I like hickory.
Have never worked in Osage but I've read that it's isn't great for the ELB design. Have no idea if this is the case or not becasue I've seen bows made from it.
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PD, measuring set and reflex is the way I do it too so you must be right. :)
Hickory is the only wood I've used with which I can take a splinter about 1/8 inch tick, try to break in half but can't. It is perhaps the toughest selfbow wood I've ever used.
Jawge
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Just a lucky guess Jawgey Poo! Right or wrong? Its the only way it makes sense in my pea brain.
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I have made a few hickory bows in the past and am making one right now. I have noticed that on my one flat bow, I got a bunch of set. It had a flat back and belly, not trapped, made from a board. I get less set when I use ax handles using the curve of the handle for the high crown on the back. With the high back crown, and a flat belly, I do get far less set. I will let you know how this one comes out if your interested...
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Sounds like it's being set straight. Like any wood, you have to design for it's properties ,and where it will be used. I've heard it's no good in humid areas, but heat treating should take care of most of that. Try one or two,and if it works for you, post the results with your thoughts. It all comes down to reading other's opinions, taking them under advisement, weeding out what works for you and being respectful if you respond. Good luck with your experiments.Imho, you wont likely set any performance record with Hickory, but if designed well ,you will have a good ,durable, long lasting bow, that probably shoots as fast as any other white wood.
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Best luck we’ve had with an all Hickory bow is to pull in as much as 4” of Perry reflex and back it with another strip of hickory .... That way, when it takes a set , and it will in our wet climate , the bow ends up perfectly straight and a good shooter... Just sayin’... we all don’t live in the desert ...
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Hickory is an excellent bow wood... I can tell you I have had certain trees that wont handle heat-treating as well as others,and the only hickory I have had problems with compression fractures was heat-treated. I believe it goes back to the bowyers adage that "all trees are not created equal".Try another one. JMHO God Bless
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As a bowyering noob this has to be one of the best threads I've read on here lately. Open minded everyone discussing point counterpoint. Kudos.
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I've made a lot of hickory bows and I don't see that its weak in compression. I think what happens more often is that its either not dry enough or the design isn't good for the wood. When the design is bad hickory will often show it in set before breaking. I've made plenty of hickory bows with no set and have had many even retain quite a bit of reflex. It's rarely the wood that's the problem...
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Ryoon, what designs have you used to get those results? I am making a semi parallel inner limb that then tapers to pyramid design right now. I have had luck with this in the past, but never without 2 inches of set, from its original straight profile.
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I've made a lot of hickory bows and I don't see that its weak in compression. I think what happens more often is that its either not dry enough or the design isn't good for the wood. When the design is bad hickory will often show it in set before breaking. I've made plenty of hickory bows with no set and have had many even retain quite a bit of reflex. It's rarely the wood that's the problem...
Yah, a few hickory bows, like a WHOLE tree's worth!
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You know, I've been thinking about something... since hickory's tension strength overpowers it's compression strength, what would happen if it was backed with something like maple?
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If anyone has a problem with the hickory they have, you can just send it to me. I love hickory, I've only broken one bow so far and it was ash. Hickory has been very good to me and I've never had a problem with compression. My flat bow was 1 1/4" wide mid limb, with some heat treating it only took 1" of set after allot allot of shooting.
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sleek, I think I've made about every kind of design from 120# warbows to 48" native american wide limb flatbows and everything in between.
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Thank you for all the input everybody, it is very much appreciated! Good point Rich! Good points all around!
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I live in the hot humid south and have made bows from hickory and it's cousin pecan and am quite pleased with it overall. I keep my bows indoors with the central air and have not had any problems with it. I trap the back and do a little heat treating and they shoot great with little to no string follow. I don't know how they would do if I left them in the truck of a car on an August afternoon..... I doubt anything would enjoy that. I believe Carson brought up the disparity within the different varieties of hickory and I agree. With that said, I have never picked up a stave of any species that wasn't just a little different from the last one. You got a make a bow out of it and form your own opinion. I'm in agreement with Halfeye about how much blood has been shed with hickory bows throughout the south for the last thousand years or so. It's good bow wood. I think if a hickory bow lets you down, it's probably more to do with the bowyer than the wood.
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I'm not really an expierienced bow but what expierience I do have is predominantly hickory.
Its some tough wood. Very versatile, Very hard to break, and a great bow wood IMO.
As others said, season it well. It tends to hang on to moisture but if you season it well and seal it after its done, you'll have a great long lasting bow.
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Ok so here is a question.
What kind of designs are best for Hickory, Osage, Mullberry and Ipe? I just make bows and hope for the best while choosing woods that help make it as fool proof as possible.
One of my favorite shooting bamboo backed hickory bows was a board is 1 1/16 wide at the fades and tapers to 1/2" for a 68" TtoT bow.
How do you tell what designs are best for a wood based on what?
My other favorite hickory bow is a 48" shortie recurve that I made for shooting from a kayak. Hasen't taken any set and I've taken it out several times for a day of shooting. Only draw to my armpit.
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Some people still seem to mistake compression strength for elasticity. A wood can be extremely strong in compression but if it's not elastic enough it will chrysal, a good example of this is Bubinga. Practically any wood will make a D section bow if you make it long enough but only the very elastic wood will make a D section bow of a practical length
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so then what your saying, is that the longer the bow, the better the wood will be in overall compression strength? I suppose that would explain why TMK can make a big huge long longbow with 80+ lbs to it and still have less set that a 60 inch with a similar design?
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Knots,
I have only made 4 bows so far, all out of hickory and 3 out of the same log. The one I am shooting now has 2.5 inches of set. I am quite sure because it was too wet. The one my niece is shooting has .25 of set. The one pyramid bow I made and gave to a friend has 1 inch of reflex (he has not shot it since I gave it to him). I am currently working on a 62# @ 27 bow that before heat treat has 1.75 of set. This bow took the set in 2 hours of being outside in 70% humidity while i worked on it. I took it into the house to check tiller and after checking tiller it took set. I don't have a hot box so I think I am not down to 8% MC like I would like to be.
All of this said the bows shoot good enough for killing deer and have a flat enough taj when I anchor at chin I can drill a target at 45 yards. Good enough for me. If you are really concerned with set just tiller really slow and careful and make sure MC is low. I look at it this way...The Indians would still be owners of this continent had we not done what we did and they were not too worried about set and didn't have all the gizmo's we have to day ;)
Build em, shoot em, enjoy em. even if they have a little set. I haven't' broke a piece of hickory yet and I really don't know what I am doing :laugh
Greg