Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: iowabow on March 04, 2013, 02:06:26 pm
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Is a well tillered bow more actuate? I know this is a shooting question but it mostly related to building a bow and tillering. I don't know the answer to this question so thought I would ask for you guys to give your opinion.
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The bow is not accurate, the archer is. But a well tillered bow is more comfortable to shoot.
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Yes, without question.
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In my opinion, tillering effects the things that lead to accuracy. Poor tiller can cause hand shock because one limb resumes brace quicker than the other. This would have a tendency to throw off your shot and since the shooter is not as comfortable, accuracy could suffer. However, with practice, most of this could be overcome. More importantly, poor tiller can lead to poor performance and/or bow failure.
For myself, I have noticed over the years that as my bows have gotten better, my shooting has improved with them. I'm sure this is more than just coincidence.
Scott
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Wot they said +1
Del
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No. Good tiller is too subjective a term to have any bearing on the accuracy of a bow.
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How about proper tiller rather?
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I'm inclined to say proper tiller has more of an effect on the life of a bow than it's ability to accurately cast an arrow. But with that said I agree with the others on the fact that a well tillered bow has less hand shock and in effect is more well tuned giving the archer a better chance to be as accurate as possible. But I'd bet ol' Byron Ferguson could still amaze folks with his feats of shooting with the crudest of bows. Though he might complain a little... ;) just my 2 cents. :) :) :)
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A poorly tillered bow, so long as it shoots consistently can be accurate. Accuracy is calibrated by the archer. However, a poorly tillered bow is, by my definition, unevenly stressed within a limb or between the bows limbs, and will therefore become less consistent over time as areas with greater stress begin to degrade.
Gabe
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So when we look at properly tillered bows and say, "wow, I bet that shoots sweet", we arent talking about tilllers effecting shootabiltiy?
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Probably not. It's just the token nice thing to say. :) So many more things to sweet shooting than tiller. Arrow weight, string type, set up of brace height and nocking point, bow holding point, tip mass etc.
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I disagree Pat.
Accuracy and cast are different things. A well tillered bow will shoot sweet, smooth, no stacking, fast etc... things things I think you can see with the tiller. But I've seen people shoot cluncky horrible bows accurately. No fun to shoot, but they can hit a target.
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This is a Devils Advocvate question. I firmly believe we all know the right answer, admittedly or not.
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No ! but yes !
More no than yes !
Why do we like like subjects without proof ?!!
Have fun with this one !
Guy
Stringman
By the way no one has yet to explained to me how one limb can come to brace before the other when the are tied together with a string !
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More accurate? No, because accuracy is in the archer. What I think we mean to be talking about is precision, and I think that a properly tillered bow will be more precise, but not more accurate. The concepts of accuracy and precision are closely related, but not the same.
I believe it should make a difference for the same reason that has been stated above. Proper tiller will make the bow more consistent over time, and will reduce things like hand-shock. All of those little things that it contributes too should make a properly tillered bow more precise.
All that said, I don't believe that the beginner or even the intermediate archer would notice the difference in precision because it would be too small and would fall well within their own margin of error. But for the expert shooter, who is already consistently accurate, that small difference in the precision of their bow will make a difference because their margin of error is so small that these minor issues can make significant differences.
If you are shooting a 12 inch group, proper tiller may only make a difference of a 1/4 inch, which means nothing to that group in practical terms. But if you are shooting a 2 inch group, then all of a sudden a 1/4 inch matters a whole lot.
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absouttely no bearing on accuracy if everything is the same ,, the arrow has to hit the same spot,,,,the arrow does not know if the bow is well tillered or not,,other wise I would have never hit anything, don't know if I ever made a well tillered bow,, may be we can test this theory out I will bring a badly tillered bow to the classic and shoot it with anyone,,sounds like fun :laugh:
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WOW great conversation. Thanks for not fighting and keep the opinions coming.
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Strap two bows in shooting machines, one "perfectly tillered" and the other "hingy and poorly timed" and I would bet that they consistently launch the same arrow repeatedly into the same sized circle.
A bow repeatedly works exactly the same way on each shot if the archer points it in the right direction. >:D
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Pat have you ever shot/made a poorly tillered bow that didn't balance in your hand due to one strong limb? I have and it seems each time I release the torque caused can make that arrow jump in 10 directions upon release. That's what I'm basing my opinion from. I'm actually floored by the subjectivity this topic raised, I didn't see that coming.
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it's a combination of all factors, great bow proper arrows, release, practice ect......., Bub
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Let's turn it on it's head.
If a poorly tillered bow shot more accurately than a 'well tillered' one we'd all surely tiller 'em that way and thus they'd be considered 'well tillered'!
Reductio ad abusurdum.
Not sure what the heck I just proved, but sure impressed the heck out of me :laugh:
Del
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That might be true, the problem being we are not machines so our technique (and consequently, accuracy) is directly related to our ability to shoot said bow well. Back to my original point. It effects our ability to shoot. But I also agree with the argument that a poorly tiller bow can be less consistent. And consistency leads to accuracy no question.
@ buckeye I think what I was trying to say is that poorly tillered limbs can return to their resting place at different times (an argument I am paraphrasing from previous reading) and this lack of unison creates the hand shock.
Scott
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I think arrows have more of an affect on accuracy than the bow but certain bows are without a doubt easier to shoot accurately than others.
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Strap two bows in shooting machines, one "perfectly tillered" and the other "hingy and poorly timed" and I would bet that they consistently launch the same arrow repeatedly into the same sized circle.
A bow repeatedly works exactly the same way on each shot if the archer points it in the right direction. >:D
Do that and shoot the bows every day for six months. I bet the well tillered bow will hit the same target for six months and the poorly tillered bow will start to stray as stress degrades the limbs and the bow transfers less energy into the arrow over time. If it doesn't break before 6 months are up.
Gabe
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In science class we'd be looking at precision vs accuracy. Just about any bow with any tiller is accurate.... it sends each arrow in the direction it is loosed. I DO believe quality of tiller affects precision ... that is the REPEATABILITY aspect of shooting. It seems that a poorly tillered bow will continue to change (even if minutely, as it creeps ultimately toward failure) with each shot, therefore removing any possibility of the archer having consistent results. It seems to follow that better tiller = less change w/in the bow = more consistent shooting (provided the archer of course does his part).
My 1.5 cents ;)
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I'm pretty much with scott. In addition to hand shock and the things that make bows uncomfortable to shoot, greater velocity means flatter trajectories over longer distance which will make shooting at unknown distances a little easier.
Jessie raises a solid point too. A bit of stiffness mid limb is nothing compared to have a crooked arrow.
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From my experiences an improperly tiller bow that twists in the limbs when drawn can be less accurate and lead to inconstancy. In my case the only bows that are more inaccurate when shooting that are not properly tillered are those that tend to have some limb twist when pulled. I have tested a few of my bows from the past that seem to have some slight limb twist and found that they are inconsitent, but only those that seem to have the twist when drawn. My logic as to explaining this is, that any inconsistancy in the draw even by 1/8 inch over or under draw has an effect on the twist of the limb therefore will magnify the accuracy issue greatly and lead to wobbling arrows or just plain scattered arrows as compared to a well tillered non twisting bow.
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I dont have answers only questions so....if a test was conducted would the test need to reflect how a hand holds a bow or would you just clamp it to a ridge structure.
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that'sit, i'm gonna start making crappy bows, uh I just looked, never mind ;D
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I think a well tuned arrow and/or the archer are where accuracy comes from. Take a well tillered bow and an untuned arrow and/or a crappy archer and the set up will be inaccurate but take a poorly tillered bow with the appropriate arrow and a good archer and the archer can shoot accurately. IMO the bow is the least important part of the 3 components.
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My first successfull bow was definitely not well tillered. But i have killed more deer with it than any other i have made, so i would say it is accurate.
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idk, it seems like whenever i shoot a bow that isn't done being tillered it has a lot of torque, so much it can throw of my shots... i think tiller has a lot to do with accuracy besides just making the bow more comfortable to shoot.
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I can't think of any reason that the tiller of a bow will directly affect accuracy. But it will certainly the cast and durability of a bow.
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;D ;D Me, Imathinkin, proper arrow in a screwed up bow with bad tiller not really a huge problem
but if you could tiller it properly that would be a +.
We all know that arrow spine is the most important equation to accuracy ( I think we do ) .
Proper release is #2 and the bent stick is #3.
So the finer we make the stick and learn lesson #1 and #2?
I'm trying for a little bit better bow.
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The way I shoot...NEITHER!
But I feel more confident with a well tillered bow, ergo I am more accurate. All the rest is just good for keeping a conversation animated around the campfire. Something for us to think about, though!
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The tremendous power of the human mind !
That is the one area I can affirm to make a difference in accuracy coming from tiller !
As far as any other way , maybe I just have not done a poor enough job at tillering yet !!
Have fun !!
Guy
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If you boys would put a sight on your bow then the tiller wouldn't matter... :) :P >:D
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But I feel more confident with a well tillered bow, ergo I am more accurate.
Well you do make a good point. It's a challenge to shoot accurately when you are worried about the bow coming apart at full draw.
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But I feel more confident with a well tillered bow, ergo I am more accurate.
Well you do make a good point. It's a challenge to shoot accurately when you are worried about the bow coming apart at full draw.
Finally! Gordon, you are a genius! All these years I have been trying to figure out why I am such a crappy shooter. With one small comment you have solved everything for me!
Guess that bars me from every making myself another bow! Oh, but I feel bad for the poor suckers that trade bows with me.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! I'm sorta hoping I might be the recipient of some of your talent someday. What exactly are you implying?!? ???
Scott
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Pray Scott. Like you have never prayed before! Hehehe!
Your stave is roughed out and stalled out all at once. I just got off the phone with Mr. Bybee and was telling him I am dragging it down to Tennessee so we can get some collaboration on it's tillering. And of course, he had to give me a few more teasers about the bow he is doing for me. The way he was talking to me about this bow I bet I am gonna see a $5.99 a minute charge on my phone bill next month!
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Easier to shoot good,yes,more actuate no,they will all hit where you point ,as Pat say a with a well tuned arrow. Lasting /sweeter and smoother to shoot is the main thing with a nicely tillered bow. :) JMO. ;)
Pappy
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I've made plenty of crap tillered bows and there is no way I can agree they shoot just as accurate as my well tillered bows, no way. I cant see how tons of handle torque, or one limb being 5-8# heavier than the other cant affect a shot? The poorly tillered bow would have to match limb to limb to shoot as accurate as a well tillered, balanced bow does. A bad tiller can mean a million things that can and do directly affect accuracy.
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Any one who has ever shot compounds knows that the finer you tune up the limb timing, the tighter the groups. I believe the same to be true without the wheels.
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This is a question I have heard many many times, no one says they shoot as well
or as easy to shoot,but they will hit where you point no matter how hard they are to handle, how shocky they are or how much torquey they have ,it's up to you to point to the same spot each time. :) Now you being able to do that the same each time is another question. :) :) This is another one of the many subjects with selfbows that everyone is never going to agree on. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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I agree with your last sentence pappy... cus everyone is different in how they shoot...some folks never get away from there compound shooting and just yank it back quickly to there anchor and will hold for a few seconds while they adjust for aiming...and some others are fast instinctively snap shooters....and everything in between...Me?....I am aiming before I even start drawing back,and as I draw back I hold steady on that one spot..I hit anchor and a half a second hold I'm letting her rip...so for me if a bow is imbalanced from poor tiller it is going to be hard to pull back smoothly staying on my one spot as I draw it because one limb will be wanting to tilt up or down...so for me the answer is yes...as to how much is obviously up for debate.
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Wow good stuff guys. There is certainly a lot of things happening as a bow is being pulled. There is a lot of bone to bone alignment as well. If a bow was not well tillered maybe the body would have to adjust to compensate for poor tiller so that the bow could hit the same spot. So I guess that having a goal of good tiller on your bows would allow you to shoot each with a similar hold and technique. Maybe having 5 bows tillered differently would cause you to adjust with each. the need to adjust must be do to the mechanics of ones body. If we all agree on the above then tiller does not effect the "bows" accuracy but effects our ability to be constantly accurate as we switch from bow to bow. Just a thought from all of the post.
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I agree that a well tillered bow is easier to shoot ,but the question is on accuracy of the bow not the shooter,if you put a bad tillered bow in a machine that will hold and shoot it the very same every time it will hit the same spot every time with the same arrow, that is all I am saying. So the answer to the question ask for me is No. ;) :) :) Man this is a fun way to spend the morning. ;) ??? :-\
Pappy
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I agree that a well tillered bow is easier to shoot ,but the question is on accuracy of the bow not the shooter,if you put a bad tillered bow in a machine that will hold and shoot it the very same every time it will hit the same spot every time with the same arrow, that is all I am saying. So the answer to the question ask for me is No. ;) :) :) Man this is a fun way to spend the morning. ;) ??? :-\
Pappy
I guess this was my point exactly! The human factor can not be removed. Therefore proper tiller is a benifical quality to the "archer's" accuracy.
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And you are correct as well because the " bow" will hit the spot not the archer. I think we are agreeing Pappy.
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My opinion; If you have a poorly tillered bow with the limbs out of time, it won't send an arrow to the same place consistently unless you have it set up in a shooting machine with perfectly matched arrows.
Bows don't shoot themselves so you can't take the archer out of the equation. It has been my experience from some of my early bows that poorly tillered bows are very difficult to shoot as well as match arrows to. You can adapt to a bows shortcomings over time but why, when correcting the tiller makes it a joy to shoot.
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Yup..beneficial to us as an archer....cus we don't shoot our bows with machines...our bodies are not static like a shooting machine is and to me the point of bringing up the shooting machine is moot and irrelevant because we shoot with our bodies..not some contraception to hold it staticly and 100% steady n stable....so does proper tiller make a bow more accurately in a shooting machine..no....will it "help" an archer be more accurate.in most cases..yes....its black n white to me....if y'all disagree then go ahead and make poorly tillered bows and don't worry about your tiller...cus if it doesn't affect you then why even try to get perfect tiller
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@ buckeye I think what I was trying to say is that poorly tillered limbs can return to their resting place at different times (an argument I am paraphrasing from previous reading) and this lack of unison creates the hand shock.
Scott
Since this was brought up and it's something I hear a lot, I'd also like to learn more about how one limb can come to rest before the other or be out of time with the other. The string tied between the limbs is what will stop their movement......they will both move until the string gets tight and stops the two at the same time, right?. Even if one limb is longer..shorter...stronger...weaker....the string between the two is still what should stop their travel simultaneously......at least that's the way it works in my pea sized brain. If there wasn't a string to stop their movement and the limbs were pulled back and just let loose to stop on their own then I can see how one could stop at a different time than the other, but being pre-stressed and connected by the string I just can't see how that could happen. Am I thinking of this wrong or is this one of those things we hear often that really isn't true?
If you think that the string stops each limb in the same place because it is tied to the end of the limbs then string up a bow, clamp it string up in a vice by the handle and pull a little on one of the limb tips (simulating it being stronger). Notice the other tip move.....
The bows tiller is what makes a balanced, well behaved bow that is easier to shoot accurately.
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so does proper tiller make a bow more accurately in a shooting machine..no.... you answered the question. :) And by the way no one wants a poorly tillered bow,and everyone knows that a good tillered bow is easier for the shooter to shoot accurate and more of a pleasure to shoot. :) But that wasn't the question. ;) :)
Pappy
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Ok this answered my question and make my want to get even better at tillering.
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But your question was so vague that there is no right answer ...next time be more specific and we won't have to open up a can of worms again...lol :laugh:
What amuses me is that 95% of the people that responded to this thread tiller a bow well..and we all basically believe its best for "us" to tiller a bow well.....yet not everyone agrees because everyone takes and views the question differently because it was so vague.
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John next time why don't you bring up Osage over yew/Instinctive over point of aim/ fast flight verse b50 /tilleringstick verse tiller tree/ what is really primitive /or what is a selfbow, Copper verse Abo/ I could go on and on. ;) :)You know something anything a little less contraversal. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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It'd be boring if we didnt get a splash of gas tossed on the fire once in a while!
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Be sure and add to that list tiller profile and front view shape. :)
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Yep. How did I forget that. ??? >:D :)
Pappy
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N how could u forget TB vs. Hide glue for sinew :laugh:
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Shelf v off the hand.
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And Self vs Sinew ;)
So the real question is, who preffers well tillered bows? :P
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All the bow does is propell the arrow and even a stick that bends and a string will do that. With the proper arrow and good shooting form and a clean release even a bent stick and string will put the arrow in the target. Of the three components I think it would be arrow, shooter, bow in order of importance. That should get the conversation started again. ;D
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I aint bitin' Brennan!
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Me nither,cause I agree. ;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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Curses, foiled again! >:(
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All the bow does is propell the arrow and even a stick that bends and a string will do that. With the proper arrow and good shooting form and a clean release even a bent stick and string will put the arrow in the target. Of the three components I think it would be arrow, shooter, bow in order of importance.
Ok Pat, but will that arrow get good penetration on a dead cow test? LOL
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Roy, it depends on how long the cow has been dead! ;)
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LOL.... :)