Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dan K on February 23, 2013, 10:57:31 pm
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Hi folks. Cast the oregon white oak into the wood pile and cleaned the bark of a yew stave. Laid it out today and have some questions. I followed Strunk's dimensions from TBB with a 4" asymmetrical handle, 4" fades, limbs 1 1/4" tapered to 5/8" OAL 67".
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3684_zpsd7818619.jpg)
The grain is a bit snake like so I followed it around the knots and came really close the the side in the upper limb. I'm thinking I'll be ok but would like some assurance from you all or change it if there's a better way.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3688_zpsa1687191.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3687_zps21e8fdbd.jpg)
On the lower limb, the sides fell right across a knot so I went around it. Doesn't look too bad but not sure about the integrity. It's rock solid and I'm thinking I should fill with CA and wood dust for good measure. Woud like your opinion and any options.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3689_zps9eca503f.jpg)
Now here's my real challenge, when I run a string from NTN it falls off the handle at center line. I'm a lefty so it's not as bad as most but concerned if I should laterally bend it or what?
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3694_zpsb41f944a.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3690_zps63843f86.jpg)
Any help would be great. Cheers!
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Hey Dan. Its hard to tell for sure but I might roll the whole layout toward the bit knot in the middle, or to the left looking at the second to the last pic. That would get that upper limb away from the knot and center up the other limb more into the middle of the stave. Seems like that other limb should be more centered anyway, like you snaked around that knot but didn't get back to center? Not sure (no pun).
I would try to avoid that upper knot and get away from the edge of the stave near the other knot. So, again, shift the whole thing over.
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Ok, here's what I see. If anyone thinks otherwise, please speak up these are just my first thoughts. I would avoid that knot that is close to the tip. Even if you have to angle the layout of the bow slightly so you go straight past it to one side. I know it's not ideal to angle the layout on the stave but that know will be a pain so close to the tip for a beginner and I figure yew can handle the slightly off center layout. Given that your draw length pushes 29" I'm wondering if it might not be a good idea to widen the bow a little. with 8" of non working handle/fades that leaves 57" of working limb ntn and that's not factoring for stiff tips. Your draw length might be asking too much if it's only 1 1/4" wide. Maybe 1 3/8" or even 1 1/2". Given that you're still a beginner it might be nice sacrifice a few fps to get some security and cut down on set.
Thoughts from yew experts?? Del?... *shakes bag of cat treats*
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Knots near the tips are no big deal because not much bending happens there. 4" fades seems a little excessive - I'd go 3". You will want the string to go right down the center of the handle or the bow will tend to torque when you shoot it. Use steam and a handle press to take care of that. I can show you how if you are interested.
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Thanks guys. I think if I bend it so the string falls on center I'll be able to move the layout over (thanks Steve) and probably avoid the knot in the lower limb too (thanks Weylin.) I will take you up on your offer Gordon. Can we get together tomorrow afternoon or one of you're sweet how to's!
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Dan, I'll be in my shop working on a take-down bow much of the day tomorrow. Feel free to drop by if you like.
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After shifting the layout a bit, shortening the fades to 3", I was able to get around the not in the upper limb and surprisingly enough, string lays almost on center across the handle.
I now need some feedback on the tiller.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3713_zps41d603c3.jpg)
I have one concern with two pin knots showing up on either side of the upper limb directly across from one another.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3715_zpsdde0b0a8.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3714_zpsc857e8eb.jpg)
It's 7/8" wide across the back directly above the knots. It's 7/8" thick on one side and 1" thick on the other from belly to top of knot. I'm thinking I can side tiller some and maybe get them out or at least one of them. Help here would be great.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3716_zpsad94a82a.jpg)
I'm shooting for a heavy weight 60 to 70# at 28.
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Looking pretty good. Hard to judge the tiller without seeing the unbraced profile but it looks fairly even so far. The left limb seems stiffer than the right by a little. Do you have it low braced yet or is that a long string? If you're worried about the knots, which I'm not sure you need to be, then I would just not follow the back on the little hump for now which will leave that spot stiff. If there is a void at all where the knots are you can fill them up with superglue. But honestly I think yew was born to eat knots like that for breakfast. make sure you round off the edges on the back if you haven't already just so you dont give that one knot that creeps up through the sapwood any reason to hassle you.
And 70#!? are you going elephant hunting? :o I think my 60+# bows are really messing with my accuracy and consistency not to mention what they are doing to my joints. I'm strongly considering reducing the weight on some of my heavier bows, I just don't think they're doing me any favors and all I really need is a bow strong enough to put down an elk at 20 yards. Sorry, not trying to give you a hard time just razzin' ya. ;)
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Thanks Weylin, If I shoot high and hit low then I'm good. You know I shoot 56# straight so if I end up around there I'll be happy. I'd like to just get a bow! The sap wood is about 3/8" thick in some places and I don't want to take too much off the belly which is why I'm side tillering. The right limbs about an inch deflex. Bellow is an unbraced picture.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3718_zps9756cb91.jpg)
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Those knots one the side are no prob at all. Once you are 90% done and start narrowing the last 1/3 of the limb a tad and tidying up the edges they'll all but disappear just leaving a hint of shaddow or figure.
It's lookin good to me. Just keep going slow and steady.
Once it's braced have another careful go over the sapwood checking for any minor marks, tidying up any gentle blends from one ring to the next and homing in on the final finish for the back. I always do it in stages as it would drive me nuts trying to get the back perfect before I started tillering.
I try to keep the heart/sap at least 50/50 so as you thin the tips you may need to thin the sap a tad (left limb?) I've seen some where they ended up all sap at the tip IMO that's just horrible.
If you are going to do horn nocks it's handy to leave the sap thick on the last 2-3" it can help avoid trying to get a flatish back into the round hole of the horn nock (It also allows you to angle the nock slightly towards the back of the bow... they look awful if they slope towards the archer)
The pic shows a bow I recently finished, there are 3 knots on the edge, one furthest from camea was plugged early at floor tiller and has been almost all rasped away as the belly was rounded. The one nearest camera just had superglue /dust massaged in regularly to keep it stable , the other tiny one by the plug I ignored.
You'll be pleasantly surprized how may problems end up on the floor as shavings and dust :laugh:
BTW Your draw weight sounds very sensible. I was thinking it was an ELB at this point. Personally I'd go nearer 50# than 70# on that length and keep the grip as short as pos. I'd rather go ELB or wider primitive style with Yew... but then I know zip about American style 'longbows'.
If it's an ELB it won't have fades as such and don't waste any length on a long stiff handle, it's too short for an ELB really, if it's an American 'longbow' I pass ;)
Del
(Some low viscosity superglue/dust on those pins might help stop 'em snagging the tools if you are worrying over 'em)
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Couldn't resist another pic... gotta love the domino 6 spot patern on the same bow as previous pic.
Shows another plugged pi which has been worked almost out of the limb.
Del
(BTW thanks for the cat treats)
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I think that Del's right about the weight/style thing. (and all the other things too ;)) To give you some perspective, the last yew bow I built is using the same american longbow style except i only have 2 inch fades instead of 4". It is 67" nock to nock (so 2" longer than yours giving me a total of 4" more working limb than you have.) I tillered it out to about 62# at 26" which is 2" shorter draw than you and it lost an inch of reflex during tillering and shooting in. So it effectively took an inch of set even though it now has a straight profile. My point is that my bow that is effectively 4" longer 10# lighter and is drawn 2 inches shorter took one inch of set. That should give you some idea of how much set your bow would take even if it was tillered perfectly. Either you need to make your bow wider or longer (neither of which are options, obviously) you need to make the bow bend through the handle or you need to lower your draw weight.
And as a side note, I do think there is some harm it shooting for a higher draw weight "just in case". There are basically 2 scenarios when you do that. One, The bow is designed for the higher draw weight (length, width, tips etc.) and when it comes in under weight you basically have an unnecessarily overbuilt bow or, two, You design the bow for a lower draw weight but shoot for a higher one hoping to split the difference but then your over stressing your bow through the whole tillering process (i.e. pulling what should be a 50# bow out to 70# the whole time you're tillering.) That's going to cause unnecessary stress and maybe even break your bow. It's best to figure out what weight you want and plan and design accordingly from the get-go, if you miss it, oh well, but it's a good habit to get into. I can empathize with the "aim high on the weight" strategy. I did the same thing on my first couple of bows.
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Thanks Del. I value your input. I fought out another yew last night awaiting replies and it's 70" long so I'll add a few pound to that one. I'll post some pics when I get her braced. Keep in touch.
Cheers!
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I'm still getting my head around how 2" in length, 1/4" in width and the many other attributes to a bow design effect weight. My focus is tiller and it appears I have already designed this to be in the 50# range based on your input. Thx! On a side note, I found turkey feathers.
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Finally got this braced. The first time, the string started to pull pretty hard on the grain and I was afraid it would peel the sapwood off like a banana peel! So I went ahead and put on the overlays. I think it looks pretty good.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3724_zpsa3ef6408.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3726_zps6c142261.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3725_zps23f57115.jpg)
I think I see a possible hinge in the upper limb (left) about 6 inches from the handle. Could use another set of eyes though and would appreciate your comments. If you want to see other pics let me know and I'll take and post them. I'm afraid to pull too hard by hand and believe me I'm pulling pretty hard to get the string to go this far. And yes, I'm a lefty.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3728_zps20de53a7.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3727_zps05cca1c5.jpg)
I'm back into tiller and weight territory where I have no experience so all comments are welcome. Thanks!
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Just watch that deflexed limb it's gonna look, like its bending more but it's not.
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"pull until you reach either full draw, intended draw weight, or flat spots in the tiller"
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I think it looks pretty darn good from what I can see. Remember to post an unbraced profile so we have something to compare it to. Nice tips!
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I really like the looks of that yew wood.
I would love to have a go at a yew stave.if I could get my hands on some.
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Overlays look good.
Don't cut into the sides of the tips too much, a dead straight groove on the side of the bow for the string makes no sense! The string swings up and down as the bow is drawn, also it's the onlt straight line on the whole bow.... loosen up man this is a curvy bit of wood ;D. Think of nicely rounded ladies when you work on bows.
Lookin good, really take you time now, slow and steady. Never do more than one burst of wood removal before getting it on the tiller and flexing/exercising and looking at it again.
Every now and again have another look at the back doing any final clean up of rings, finer sanding and rounding of any sharp edges.
At this stage it's twice as much lookin' and thinkin' as actual workin'.
Del
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Thanks Bryce, I'm feeling better on watching deflex.
Got it Steve, thanks! One inch at a time, flex the wood and stop if you see a problem.
There's an unbraced pic on page one Weylin. It still tells the story. If I see any set I'll post a new unbraced pic.
Great analogy Del! They're like a woman in many ways. Kinda scary when you think about it!
Cheers!
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I can't see any pictures before you braced pic. Maybe the problem is on my end.
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I can't see any pictures before you braced pic. Maybe the problem is on my end.
Nope I can't see em either
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Hmmm, not sure what's up but here's the one before I put tips on.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3718_zps53107505.jpg)
And here's the unbraced pic now after I have tillered to 50# at 25'
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3734_zps55d7e7e6.jpg)
Here it is now braced
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3735_zps69f8ca61.jpg)
And here's at 50# at 25'
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3736_zps1e99502c.jpg)
I'm thinking I'll get the last three inches of draw out of the bottom limb close to the tip. I'd like to round the bottom a bit more to match the upper limb. Am I seeing this right is is there a better way?
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Fix that right limb!
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The limb on the left is bending too much relative to the right limb - you have to weaken the right limb to balance it out. After you fix that you need to take some wood off the left inner limb - the outer limb has too much bend.
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The limb on the left is bending too much relative to the right limb - you have to weaken the right limb to balance it out. After you fix that you need to take some wood off the left inner limb - the outer limb has too much bend.
agreed
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Regarding your question, Dan: Its the other way around. The right limb has the better tiller, in and of itself. Ideally, you would change the left limb to match it, but of course you can't now. But for the sake of learning, both limbs should look more like the right.
If you look at how much each tip has moved you'll see the right started out lower, and ended up higher. You want them moving closer to the same distance.
I would not touch the left limb. I would get every square millimeter of bend out of the right that you can without violating it so that the movement of the tip is as close to the left's as possible, and call it good. It could shoot just fine like that.
Ideally I would like to see it pulled by hand with an arrow on it before I made any tiller changes, though.
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Easing off the right limb will also take some load off the left and make it look less over stressed.
DO IT SLOW !
Little at a time, plenty of pics and thinking.
Bit like the old joke... Tourist asks Irish guy "how do I get to Balleybofey" and he replies...
" Sure if I were were you I wouldn't start from here"
The art of tillering is preventing it getting out of kilter rather than fixing it, so ideally you shouldn't be starting from here!
Hope fully it will even up fine if you take it carefully... nothing much will seem toi happen at first, but don't be tempted to take too much off. Very small changes and it will slowly shift the ballance between the limbs.
Del
(Sorry if this sounds preachy :-[... I just don't want to see a good bow spoiled)
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I think I've finally got my first bow. Any final words from you folks before I seal this and put a handle on it. If you see anything I can do to optimize this any, I really appreciate your voice!
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3815_zpsb177122e.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3815_2_zpsb206e96d.jpg)
I shot it about 20 times and it's shoots straight, feels good and quick to hit the mark!
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3745_zps53d3b163.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3759_zps79ddd239.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3789_zps3f450551.jpg)
It's a gut shot I know but hey I hit the thing at 20 yards with a brand new bow and a brand new arrow (thanks Carson!) Flight of the virgins!
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Way to go Dan-o!!! That's a bow to be proud of :)
Good job on your first bow! Better than my first for sure!
Now lets go get an elk!
Now get over here so we can wrap that handle ;)
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I think that's a damn fine bow you've got there! Well done, sir. 8) I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.
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Wow, Dan, you couldn't have done a better job cleaning up that tiller. Good for you, or bad for you if you don't like addictions. That thing will kill anything in North America.
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Thanks guys. I shot it side by side with the osage you made me Weylin and you got me beet hands down. I await the day I compete with you bro! This yew is pretty quick though. I think it's got the osage on that at least.
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That bow looks pretty darn good. Congratulations!
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That means alot coming from you Gordon, thanks. Can't wait to start another one!
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Well done, you evened that out nicely.
Can't beat the feel of that first bow and to make it an ELB.
I hereby confer on you the status of an honorary English Yeoman :laugh:
Del
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Nice work Dano! Good to see those young arrows found a rightful mate!
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That means alot coming from you Gordon, thanks. Can't wait to start another one!
What's that suppose to mean!!!!? Huh!
:laugh:
p.s. what the final weight after shooting in?
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(Chanting) PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES!!!!