Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: nineworlds9 on January 21, 2013, 10:44:16 am
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About a month ago I got ahold of a Rudderbows EWB...76" rated 90-100@33" (I scaled it and it pulls about 75@28") The seller described it as yew belly,ipe core, hickory back and at the time I went along with that because I was not so familiar with yew.
Well, I have become more familiar with yew and its characteristics and coloration. I have since theorized that the belly couldn't possibly be yew, unless it was sapwood, it is a creamy color, not the characteristic orangey red. The core is definitely ipe and the back looks just like hickory.
The belly has similar ringyness and grain as yew, but like I said is creamy beige, almost as light as the hickory back (which has dead straight grain)
Could the belly be lemonwood or maple?
Anyway, the bow has a 20 strand black Dacron string and let me just say it is a DOG...cast sucks. The bow only has about 1.5" of set, so that part is ok, but I really think the "rope-like" string has GOT to go, I really think it's too stretchy and heavy, and is slowing the bow way down. I've commissioned a 14 strand D-10 fastflight for it and I am really hoping this will make a huge difference in the cast.
Another thing related to the cast issue aside from the B50 string is likely my current use of weighted carbon arrows...I weight them with plastic coated wire clothesline, but honestly they're still too light I believe for this bow when pulling 28" or more on the draw. From a physics standpoint I'm sure they're not absorbing enough of the bows energy, which in part besides the mega crap 20 strand string is likely causing the crappy cast. I have proper heavy warbow arrows on the way from a fletcher friend...hoping those help.
Thoughts on the wood?- would yew used for a belly on a warbow be creamy like the sapwood??? Or is it likely lemonwood/maple and the seller was gravely mistaken?
Thankfully I got a deal on the bow. Can't wait to try it with the D10 string and warbow arrows.
Scroll toward end of thread to view some of the pics I have. They are photos from the ad when I bought it, all I have on my phone right now. Promise to upload some better ones that I take myself tomorrow when I get home.
****BETTER PICS UPLOADED, SEE 2ND PAGE OF THREAD.
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post some pics, within a day or two we will have it identified
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Ok I'll post some pics ASAP
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I'm certainly no expert, but for what it's worth, I have a heavy warbow (90#) with a 20 strand Dacron B50 string which I made myself (in fact it was one of the first bowstrings I ever made, so it's not exactly perfect) and the cast is superb. I can only just draw it to my full 29" draw to rattle off a shot or two, but in the hands of more experienced archers it flicks arrows out like a machine. I would be very surprised if changing the string would affect the cast that much. It's far more likely an inherent issue within the bow itself, not the string.
Also, I've made (and broken!) quite a few yew longbows with very pale heartwood. I'm sure most bowyers on here who have worked with more than a few pieces of yew will have found the mysterious "not-sure-what-I-am" heartwood / sapwood, where nothing is quite what it seems to be!
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Perhaps some of the cast issue lies in my having only used the bow for target shooting as of yet..and only drawing it to 28-29"...it pulls around 75 at this draw length, but maybe the limbs aren't working enough at that point? Maybe it really does need to be drawn to 33" as it is rated. The warbow arrows and new string will be here soon so those should help answer some questions for me.
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thats something ive noticed, if you short draw a HEAVY bow, you will often find that it gets a bit sluggish, plus if you dont have 800-1000 grain arrows, then your cast isnt going to go as far.
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thats something ive noticed, if you short draw a HEAVY bow, you will often find that it gets a bit sluggish, plus if you dont have 800-1000 grain arrows, then your cast isnt going to go as far.
Sounds like I'm on the right track then. The new warbow arrows on the way are 34" with 190g points. The silly carbons I've been shooting to tide me over are only 29.5" with 175g up front and clothesline inside, probably barely 550-600g total.
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to me, if you can get arrows close to 10grains per pound of draw, then your cast will be optimal, thats what ive seemed to have noticed, granted the spine will probably be nice too, and that counts for accuracy, but the weight should help transfer energy into the arrow and allow it to travel with more energy, which should translate to a better cast.
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Here are three pics showing the layers of the bow and the belly in question. They are photos from the ad when I bought it, all I have on my phone right now. I promise to actually take some better ones myself tomorrow. Perhaps we can at least get the ball rolling on the wood ID process. Still having trouble believing the belly is yew, but who knows...
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i agree with you, all the yew ive seen has a LARGE number of rings, this one has so few. also, it just doesnt look like it. it could be maple, beech, or something like that.
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it looks like mine.it is bamboo over ipe with a hickory belly.i may be wrong but my rudder bow has this combo of woods.
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it looks like mine.it is bamboo over ipe with a hickory belly.i may be wrong but my rudder bow has this combo of woods.
Thanks for chiming in. I know it may look like it in those photos, but the back is definitely not bamboo. The back is hickory, I am certain of it. The grain,texture, and color of the back is consistent with hickory, with no knots or bumps of any kind. Yes, core is ipe. The wood in question is the belly. I have learned that Jim Boswell did not always use the same combo of woods when he built these bows. The seller who sold me this bow indicated he bought it from another guy who bought it direct from Jim some time ago, so it is not one of the offerings from say 3Rivers or Kustom King.
Tomorrow I will upload better closeup pics that I've actually taken myself, promise.
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Yeah you can get pale yew, but that ain't yew. Could it also be hickory on the belly?
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Will, the thought of double hickory had occurred to me. I was hesitant to say yes because while the back's grain is almost dead straight, the belly's is very wavy/irregular and a different shade of cream. Stay tuned for more pics.
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i bought my bow direct from Jim.it is probably double hickory.Jim makes bows at a reasonable price.i don't think he would include yew unless the buyer wanted a custom bow.yew is very expensive and hickory is one of Jims main bow woods.i ordered mine with a bamboo backing instead of hickory.
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Looks like hickory to me.
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Here are better quality pics of the belly. Hickory? Lemonwood? Etc? Definitely not yew in my opinion. I wish I had known what I know about yew now. Either way I paid a great price, just isn't as much as a 'find' to me now.
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Some more.
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i am sure you will have fun shooting it.i like shooting mine alot.you said that you got if for a good price,so have fun and shoot the heck out of it. ;)
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Hickory 100%, not a bad belly wood though it's not Yew so you could get your money back if you wanted.
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Yeah, it must be hickory indeed. So it's a hickory, ipe, hickory bow. No problem, I'm glad I didn't pay more at the time of sale or I'd be disappointed and upset. The seller claimed the bow was "around 400 new". Thankfully I paid FAR less than that for it. I dunno, 3Rivers sells the bamboo backed ones for 394 so maybe the seller at least wasn't BSing the new price. I'm just gonna enjoy it for what it is, I've got some proper warbow arrows coming by end of next week. Thanks for the help guys.
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Did Jim say it was yew, or did the guy you bought it from say it was yew? As soon as some people hear 'warbow', they automatically think 'yew.' The belly wood on that bow is definitely not yew. I doubt it's lemonwood either, as it's very difficult to get in the US. Probably hick/ipe/hick, which is fine. Good thing you didn't pay yew prices for it! Shoot the hell out of it!
Oh yah... for heavy bows (over 60#), I use nothing but FF. B50 is just too stretchy. I can't even brace my warbows with B50.
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Yeah, I found out today the new arrows are finished and on the way. String should also be done soon. Can't wait.
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Just my opinion as I don't do laminates...but
It sounds like a daft combination of woods to me. The core does relatively little work and thus can be a light stable wood. So why is the core a heavy wood that's good in compression? Hickory Maple Ipe would prob be much quicker.
Maybe open it up and laminate some lead sheeting in the middle, that might speed it up >:D
If I had to guess the belly wood I'd say Lemonwood
Del
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Lol. I agree...I've been learning about these things and Im also not sure why they'd use ipe in the middle of this bow. You know based on pics I studied it does look a lot like lemonwood, but I think it's not likely. There are quite a few bows sold in the UK that I found online that are "lemonwood belly, purple/greenheart core, hickory backed" that look very similar to mine. Dunno. Hmmm.
How come UK makers like Bickerstaffe etc. use purpleheart or greenheart as a core? Aren't those woods very similar to ipe?
Haha, on 3Riversarchery.com where they sell the bamboo backed version of this bow, the ad is quoted as "ipe center lamination for added speed"...Del you'd probably call bollocks on that eh?
Here's what I found on greenmanlongbows.co.uk:
"Another effective and popular configuration in laminated longbows uses a third strip, (known as the core) between the back and belly. Cores are generally no more than 1/4 of an inch thick and often taper towards the bows tips. Cores experience mostly compressive forces and as such can be made from all the woods used for belly's. They can also be made from woods that are characterised by their stiffness and stability such as purpleheart, greenheart, IPE, or osage."
"The reported advantages of using a core strip can be that they act as a buffer between the back and belly, increasing their effectiveness and helping to spread the loads and forces in the finished bow. They also give an amount of stiffness and stability to the bow and in certain cases can reduce the development of string follow. Using multiple cores will impart a higher degree of stiffness to the bow."
Here are two pics of lemonwood and hickory. Gosh studying this bow its so hard for me to tell. To me at least, it looks like lemonwood based on the pics I've studied, but as you all have been saying chances are its hickory. I emailed Jim Boswell directly, maybe he can help.
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Just my opinion as I don't do laminates...but
It sounds like a daft combination of woods to me. The core does relatively little work and thus can be a light stable wood. So why is the core a heavy wood that's good in compression? Hickory Maple Ipe would prob be much quicker.
Maybe open it up and laminate some lead sheeting in the middle, that might speed it up >:D
If I had to guess the belly wood I'd say Lemonwood
Del
Sorry, Del... but you're mistaken. This is a common misconception. The core wood does do work. Similar to the belly wood. A compression weak core wood will in fact make a bow weaker, with more set. Essentially, the two woods become compression belly wood, but there is an additional glue line. Basically, two proper glue lines are stronger than one. The concern with using a dense core wood (like ipe) is making sure the limbs (especially the outer limbs) don't carry too much mass. All else being equal, my tri lam bows are faster (by about 10-15%) than my backed or self bows.
Perhaps think of it this way... two pieces of wood glued together will be stronger than a single piece of the same thickness, and three will be stronger than two.
I have used ipe as a core wood more than once, and it makes a fantastic bow. My latest is this: maple back, ipe core, osage belly. 70" ntn, 1 1/8" wide at the grip, tapering to 3/8" nocks. 53#@28" and shoots 175 fps. Very fast, no hand shock, bow weighs 600 grams, 1/2" of set.
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Fair enough, I bow to your experience.
But please note I didn't say it doesn't work. I said 'relatively little' and of course the work it does will be proportional to it's thickness and position relative to the neutral axis.
Del
BTW, Nice bow :)
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Very handsome bow adb! Soon as I get my new fastflight flemish installed on the warbow I will post pics
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Well, I was able to email with Jim Boswell himself and he set things straight! He says his warbows are only made with two belly woods: hickory or osage.
Per Jim, my bow is indeed HICKORY-IPE-HICKORY and was made in October of 2011. That lays that to rest once and for all. Cool! Just glad to finally know what I got.
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I wonder if the dense core is used to keep the hickory from crushing that soft maple belly !! Have fun with it !
Guy
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thats not yew,and look at signature their hoping for forgiveness
chuck
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LOL, yes it has been established that the bow is hickory/ipe/hickory. It was not the maker that claimed it was yew, but the seller I purchased it from second hand. I am wood wiser now of course. And as stated, thank the Gods I didn't pay a yew price ;)
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that yellow tint make me think it could be osage. Rudder was selling Argentine Osage which is supposed to be straighter than the northern stuff. However most of the bows Rudder sells are hickory or Ipe.
I like the looks of it. Honestly it's good looking bow and Ipe adds performace to a bo in my opinion. Unless you are set on Yew you can get a great performing multilam bow for MUCH less than Yew and not wory about deforresting an increasingly rare tree. ::)
You could make that belly look like yew with a little thinned out cherry stain.
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Cool idea!