Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: nineworlds9 on January 20, 2013, 11:37:34 pm
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I recently acquired a beautiful self Pacific yew English longbow, 72" unstrung, 68" strung at fistmele, draws 64# @ 28". The maker described the bow as having "a couple inches of stringfollow/just the right amount"...I got it and it seemed good to go, shot it several sessions, always unstrung and stored properly. The maker only lives 3 hours away so climate is not an issue. The bow seems to have nice cast and shoots quietly. Anyway, after shooting it for a week I decided to measure the stringfollow myself, as the bow had a decent curve to it unstrung, drawing a straight line from nock to nock and then measuring from that line to the belly of the grip- 3.5-3.75"... I've heard 3" is about max desired. I need some expert advice. The bow came with a fastflight string which is supposed to be ok for selfbows so I've heard. I love the bow and it shoots nicely, just wonder if the 3.5-3.75" set is an issue. Someone suggested I strap the bow in a form and heat it to take some of the set out.
***UPDATE: the maker got back to me and laid my concerns to rest, I'm quite satisfied with what I learned. This is the type of person it's nice to do business with. Scroll to end of thread to read what he had to say!
On the floor, measured 3.5" floor to belly of grip:
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s631/nineworlds9/Wes%20Martin%20yew%20ELB/photo2-1.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s631/nineworlds9/Wes%20Martin%20yew%20ELB/photo.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s631/nineworlds9/Wes%20Martin%20yew%20ELB/photo15.jpg)
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First off, welcome! ;D. I'm not a yew expert or elb expert ( or any other kind of expert), but if you like the way the bow shoots, how much stringfollow it has really isn't much of an issue. Providing that it doesn't continually get worse that is. I wouldn't recommend trying to heat out the set on a broke in bow. Some folks have had some marginal success at it, but chances are that you ruin a good bow attempting it. Basically what I'm trying to say is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Josh
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leave it alone, if it bothers you enough take it back to the maker to heat out the set
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Thanks glad to be here. My main stomping ground has been tradgang. Cool beans. I re-measured it and its right at 3.5". The set seems to come in right about mid limb..the handle/riser section are relatively straight. I'd think that'd be good right? When I lay the bow on its back on the floor and measure floor to nock I get 4" bottom limb/ 4.5" top limb and if you subtract the handle thickness of 1 3/8" you get 2 5/8" and 3 1/8" bottom vs top respectively. Yeah Im gonna leave it alone, it shoots nice. I'm just spoiled cause my other ELB is a John Strunk :)
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I agree with what's been said above in that if it works then don't mess with it. I think as far as excessive set goes, in my opinion if it's above 1.5" then its too much unless the bow is much longer. You want enough set to tell you that the bow is stressed but not enough to hurt performance drastically. If the set is uneven as you say it is then that means the outer limbs are far more stressed than the rest of the bow.
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It does bend in the handle some when shooting. Yeah Im gonna just enjoy it. I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to do much about it.
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First I agree with everyone else. If you like it and it shoots well then ignore it.
Measuring it can be deceptive... it depends how you measure.
What i do is put it up against a straight edge say a wall with the string off and the belly towards the wall.
How many fingers can you slip between the wall and the grip?
1 is great 2 is ok, IMO 3 is is getting a bit poor and 4 is bad.
I wouldn't want to try heat treating out the set it could well be a waste of effort.
A little set gives a smooth shooting bow and is inevitable, just about the only way to get no set is to start with an inch or so of reflex.
Del
(BTW there may be some confusion between set and stringfollow in thei thread. IMO 'set' is permanent and is there even if you haven't shot the bow for a week. Stringfollow is the icreased set immediately after shooting which will recover after say half and hour)
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When referring to this bow I'm definitely talking about SET...as far as after shooting, the set does not change by more than .25, from 3.5" grip to straightedge to about 3.75" after shooting.
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I think poundage and length can make a difference too. On a 40# @ 28" bow, 3 1/2" set is gonna be a killer, and string tension at brace height will most likely be quite poor. But on a 70# bow, string tension my be fine. If a bow is shorter, the brace height will typically be lower too, so that the limbs will be stressed less before being braced, even if it is a little bit. So a shorter bows brace height may be comfortably 5 1/2", while a longer bows brace can be 6 1/4". I fine set has a bigger effect on shorter and lighter weight bows, while longer and heavier weight bows can get away with a little more.
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Yeah, I weighed the bow, my pull scale isn't super accurate but I got something like 62-65 @28, so it's definitely pulling right around what the maker rated it at- 64 @28. Who knows, maybe it was an even heavier bow when he first made it and now it's 'set'tled down to 64ish pounds from whatever it was when it was straighter?
Also, string angle at the tips seems fine if you look at the pic, it's less than 90 at full draw and it was also less than 90 when I scaled it...
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I recently went to my local Archery shop and had chance to handle all of their Trad Longbows. Bickerstaff and a few others all laminates mainly boo backed. All of the bows were new and most of them had around 2 inches of set, one had over 3.
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I recently went to my local Archery shop and had chance to handle all of their Trad Longbows. Bickerstaff and a few others all laminates mainly boo backed. All of the bows were new and most of them had around 2 inches of set, one had over 3.
Hmm. Interesting, that's food for thought. I may have to email one of the overseas English makers for an opinion..
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whats your draw length? you appear to have long arms, compared to the door that is. If it continues to get worse, theres a problem. If not leave it or a mild tip flip.
It just looks to me as if your over drawing it. that being said thats a place to start. I'm sure someone w/more insight will have more.
Beautiful bow, could have also started out deflexed, I built one like that once. man what shooter.
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whats your draw length? you appear to have long arms, compared to the door that is. If it continues to get worse, theres a problem. If not leave it or a mild tip flip.
It just looks to me as if your over drawing it. that being said thats a place to start. I'm sure someone w/more insight will have more.
Beautiful bow, could have also started out deflexed, I built one like that once. man what shooter.
I'm 6'2'', my draw is right between 28 and 29 depending on how much I straighten my arm. I may have stretched out a bit more than if I were actually shooting, as I was trying to get a good pic to study the string angle and tiller at max draw. How shoot depends on the bow and brace height, though I'm usually within a 1/2". My other ELB, a Strunk, is only tillered to 27", so I have to short draw that one, which funny enough helps me get a nice sight picture, I'm actually dang accurate with that bow. Some bows I keep a little more bend in my arm. This bow is rated for 28, so it should be ok hopefully. Going to keep shooting it and keep measuring it the day after for a while to see if it is stable.
Could I achieve a tip flip just from some judicious heating and bending at the tips?...
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My big old Yew self bow has about that much set and it still shoots fine, I've overdrawn it to 31" which hasn't helped.
I would seriously urge you not to mess with a bow you didn't make yourself.
You could very easilly do more harm than good.
If the wood is near it's limits all you will achieve is slight recurve at the tips and more set elsewhere.
Personally I'd leave it well alone, it seems to have plenty of character, and that set may well be the price you pay for it.
Please don't mess with it. If you are actually unhappy with it contact the bowyer.
If someone was complaining about a bow I'd made, my attitude would be, let me see it and I'll advise what is required, if there's a problem I'll fix it. If someone tried to 'fix' one of my bows I'd give 'em short shrift.
Del
Note:- I was slightly confused when you said you measured to the 'back' of the grip, that's why I gave my 'fingers' explanation. I think you mean the belly of the grip. (I know 'back' sounds right... but it isn't)
BYW I'm an 'Overseas English maker' ;D!
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Thanks Del. Those words make me feel better about it. For the type of bow it is, self Pac yew, I really did get it for lunch money, so I shouldn't complain, haha. If it continues to perform the way it has, all the better. I won't $^$% with it. Reading the TBB vol.1-3 series just has me thinking a lot about bow design lately, and getting more hands on. I'm actually inspired to try and make one myself at this point. The main reason I have not contacted the bowyer about the bow at this point is our prior communications left something to be desired, it was kind of a 'sale, and wham bam thank ya mam' probably stemming from the fact that the bow was won for so little. I have avoided further contact because I'd rather not have any negative communications back and forth and just feel ok about the bow with what I know on my own. I don't want him to end up telling me "oh yeah, by the way it's a dud, sorry." or some such. She's just gonna have to stay her gnarly old sweet shooting self for now and I'll like it.
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Del, yes I meant the belly of the grip..the 'rear' of the grip indeed.
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Couldnt help but chime in here. I would say it all depends how much you payed for it. If it was expensive I would have expected something better. It isnt too difficult for a good bowyer to make a bow of that design with half that set. It clearly isnt made that well. But if you didnt pay too much and it shoots arrows make the best of it.. Personnaly I'd be dissapointed , which you obviously are or you wouldnt have asked on this forum...sounds like you know this really anyway? complain to the maker and see what he says...nothing lost by doing that.
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Couldnt help but chime in here. I would say it all depends how much you payed for it. If it was expensive I would have expected something better. It isnt too difficult for a good bowyer to make a bow of that design with half that set. It clearly isnt made that well. But if you didnt pay too much and it shoots arrows make the best of it.. Personnaly I'd be dissapointed , which you obviously are or you wouldnt have asked on this forum...sounds like you know this really anyway? complain to the maker and see what he says...nothing lost by doing that.
I'm not bashful. $300. From what I've seen a self yew by a true master should be 3 times that so I think I did 'ok.' I imagine the stave probably cost at least $75.
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I dont know about USA prices, but a good self yew bow over here would be easily double that...yew is hard to get here. Yeah so looks like you'll just have to accept the set, not much is perfect in this world. Just to own any self yew bow is a privilege...I dont have one...the main thing with any bow is how it shoots, thats the real judge of quality, the performance
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I dont know about USA prices, but a good self yew bow over here would be easily double that...yew is hard to get here. Yeah so looks like you'll just have to accept the set, not much is perfect in this world. Just to own any self yew bow is a privilege...I dont have one...the main thing with any bow is how it shoots, thats the real judge of quality, the performance
Yeah I bet. You know, concerns or not, you're right, I do feel privelaged to own this crooked %ss bow, haha. Other than my Strunk its the only other bow I've owned/shot that feels 'alive'. I have quite a few other bows, but they are all glass laminated and honestly feel like dead things compared to bows like this one and the Strunk. I'll have to give her a weird/messed up name to go with her weird 'self' self
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no man....give her a posotive name....
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Yes positive, you're right...but weird ;D
Originally I was thinking something like 'Hecate', but maybe something like 'Luna' would be better
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Maybe this was mentioned already but.... to have any idea how much set there is in that bow you'de have to know the form of the stave before tillering started. Was it perfectly straight or was it naturally deflexed?
If the stave was naturally deflexed by 3 inches, than you've only got 0.5 inches of set.
I believe there is a difference in performance between a deflexed stave(one that grew or dried that way) and a stave where set has been induced do to stress from tillering and shooting. Just my .02. String follow and set are two different beasts.
Gabe
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Maybe this was mentioned already but.... to have any idea how much set there is in that bow you'de have to know the form of the stave before tillering started. Was it perfectly straight or was it naturally deflexed?
If the stave was naturally deflexed by 3 inches, than you've only got 0.5 inches of set.
I believe there is a difference in performance between a deflexed stave(one that grew or dried that way) and a stave where set has been induced do to stress from tillering and shooting. Just my .02. String follow and set are two different beasts.
Gabe
Gabe, I had not even thought of that, while not a novice to archery, definitely a novice to bowyering. You make an interesting point. It is true, as I mentioned, I have not noticed more than a 0.25 inch variation in the bows measurement of 3.5", flat plane to belly of the grip...max I've seen after shooting it over multiple long sessions is 0.25". It would be really neat if your theory was right and the bow had 3" of NATURAL deflex and was in fact only following 0.25-0.5" under stress. I'm waiting to hear back from the maker, perhaps he can shed more light on the stave he started with...
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This is what I learned from the maker. My concerns are laid to rest and I'm going to quit being so dang scientific and just enjoy the dang bow!:
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"Personally I'd not worry much about the set. It did take what I consider more set than usual but I still like the way it shoots so didn't try to correct it. some of it is natural deflex too..it started out with 1.5" or so of deflex...yew is so hard for me to get every piece is special so I normally don't like to do a lot of heating and reflexing on it. I can take it out with heat but the draw weight will go up drastically and it will need to be retillered . I would advise against that since there would not be a drastic performance gain. I just built one this week that's only 67"s long and pulls about 70#s....haven't scaled it yet... and it has zero set so far but I've only shot it 30-40 times. It doesn't shoot any better than your bow though.
I read your post on primitive archer. I don't want you to think it was just a sale. I take pride in my bows and if I didn't communicate enough I'm sorry. I just didn't really have anything more I knew to say..all I really know to say is it's made of yew, horn nocks ELB tiller and the specs..I bought the stave so don't have any history on it. I was happy with the sale price too so that's not an issue. If you're unhappy with it I'd be happy to buy it back for what you paid...I'll pay your shipping too."
Also:
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I wanted to revise what I said about the natural deflex...I said 1.5 inches I notice you're measuring and calling it 3.75 inches. From your pic and what I remember about the stave not much of that is set really...or crushing of the belly fibers...a lot of that is natural which really does make a big difference if you have handled a bow with with that much actual set it wouldn't have as much early string tension as that bow. so by your measurement you can say 3"s of that is natural. One thing also to get a spot on accurate measurement of "set" run a string from the middle of the nock to the middle of the other nock and measure the distance the string lies from the belly. That thing has bulbous horn nocks so they're making it sit off the floor quite a bit more than a bow with self nocks. I'm not really trying to influence your opinion of the bow or defend it I guess you'd say.... it just sounds like you're wanting to know if it's gonna perform on par with other ELBs. I know how stuff like that can be..you enjoy the bow but every time you unstring it you keep staring at it again I'd be happy to buy it back if it bothers you."
Well that settles it! The type of person I want to always do business with if I can help it. "Luna" is going to be shot and enjoyed and with any luck is going to take some game!