Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stringman on January 13, 2013, 10:55:15 pm
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Ok I want to know if anyone has tried this. I have a piece of Osage that won't work with conventional ring orientation, so I thought a out backing it on the side. It is fairly straight grained so tell me if this will work and what I need to know first.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/769315FD-631D-4F76-B1DA-8DFD20378D46-1071-0000018F3D95F8E4_zps50aceca6.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/A7C2496F-48AC-4904-B4BA-C2526FEC2C1E-1071-0000018F45D9CA9B_zpsa06fab28.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/B1BF094F-DB75-4D83-8FE4-AB5F6B71D21E-1071-0000018F4E3D6F04_zps4231c1a6.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/B2F1646C-DD2C-4778-9570-DFF9F39AC432-1071-0000018F540DEFF2_zpse9fa5cee.jpg)
Scott
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Never worked Osage but what you have there is a quarter sawn board ,but even better because it was split . JMHO, but you wouldn't likely have to back it. Unless there is some crazy thing about Osage . Like I said , it's like a board bow ,but better because it's split. Let's see what the Osage boys have to say.....................
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Yes it will work, I prefer 1/4 sawn boards for BBO bows. Get that stave tapered from 1/2 thick at the riser section to 3/8th thick at the tips, leave it about 1 1/2 wide the entire length for now. Leave the back flat and do the taper on the belly side. I make my riser section about 13 inches long by 1 1/4 wide. I hold the 1 1/4 width out about 3 more inches past the end of the riser then do a straight taper to 1/2 wide at the tips. But the way to do this is get the belly side of the boo flat and then trace out your bows profile on the flat belly side of the boo and cut that out staying a 1/16th" away from your line, then get to the line with hand tools. Taper the boo from 1/8 thick at riser to 1/16th thick at tips. Use a toothing plane to score the two flat areas you are going to glue together. I use URAC 185 but it's no longer available, Unibon800 is it's replacement. Then do the glue up and after the glue is dry, glue on a riser section and after that dries, cut the bow out to the edge of the boo. Leave your handle area wide and then you can cut it down to suit your self.
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Do It! That's perfect.
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Your orientation is just fine unless you have some pin knots to deal with, they can cause you some problems.
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Ole Roy and Eric gave you some pretty good info there. They both build extremely nice BBOs so I would take any advice they give you. ;)
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If you got at least an inch of workable width you can get a selfbow outta that....but if you got plenty of hedge and you've never made a bbo and want to then that's a good candidate and id say go for it..I don't see any issues in the stave from what I can see
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What Roy said.That's the way I've always done it.A deflexed relexed profile gives you a sweet fast bow.
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That's right BH, plenty 'O hedge. This piece doesn't appear to have enough wood to make a selfbow, and there are some tear outs that I'm hoping to cover up on the back.
Roy you have explained what I had in mind, but wanted to hear someone else say. It confirms my instincts were close. I had hoped to glue this up in reflex just not sure exactly how. Also will TBIII work or should I go with the gap filling epoxy? Another thought I had would be to heat recurves in then glue it... Just don't have enough practical experience to feel confident.
Scott
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Yep pre shaping your recurves before glue up is the way if you want recurves on her.I use smooth on wrapping it with innertube very tight so the glue line is very thin.You can hurry it up by putting it your hot box for 5 to 6 hours at 150 F. let er cool and she's ready for clean up.I put that painters trim masking tape on the bamboo to prevent squeezed out glue from getting on the bamboos back.Hold it in place on your wood with masking tape prior to wrapping with the innertube too.Also wrap it in saran wrap before you wrap it with the innertube so your innertube don't get stuck to your bow.C clamps will work too.
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Took another look at your piece of wood there.You might not have enough thickness to do a complete reflex with it.Never done that before.I'd think you would glue the handle on first then your bamboo.A D/F yes with the handle cut out to the shape of your deflex after glue's done,a foot or so long.Dry fit it till no daylight can show through.C clamp the handle to your bow.Dean Torges' forms work nice or a solid one piece form works well too.Torges forms are adjustable which is nice.
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Ok thanks, Ed.
So TBIII is out?!?
Scott
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TB3 will work just fine,but requires a better fit...aka...no gaps at all,and don't score the wood like you wood with the epoxies. The epoxies are better at a novices mistakes of getting gaps and will hold just fine,but the TB3 won't like it. You also don't wanna starve the joint and put too much pressure on em and squeeze all your glue out. Either glue you use do a dry run mock set up over the form to make sure you have a good fitting joint. I've used TB3 a few times with good success and I've also used urac(now discontinued and sold as unibond) a few times with good success as well..its all in the prep work and using whatever glue you use properly.
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Here is a video of my glue up with r/d. Note how the handle section is curved! This is why you glue on the riser section after this first part is dry. You lay the riser block on it's side and lay the bow on top of it and trace out the curve, cut it out, then glue on the riser, then cut it all out when dry. Note the blocks of boo on the back under the clamps for padding protection from the clamps. If you don't pad the boo it will get damaged at glue up and most likely splinter on you when tillering. I would spend a couple extra bucks and buy Unibond800, it's only about $15.00 and a can will make several bows. Also once your bows shape is cut out of the boo, lay the boo on your belly wood and string it to get it straight and then mark the edges so you can glue it up straight. I drill 2 small holes where they will be covered with the handle wrap and a small hole in the very end of each limb tip, then at glue up I stick toothpicks into the holes to keep it all lined up. Otherwise the boo could slide out of alignment at glue up and you end up with a crooked bow. I just flip my belly wood tips with a heat gun before glue up, I don't think you want a whole lot of recurve in the tips of a BBO bow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGXmqFxUjHU
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Perfect! That helps me to visualize the process. Thanks Roy!
Scott
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I have been looking for a peice like that for a edge grain self bow ,wish I had it !
But if your wanting a booback go for it !
Have fun !
Guy
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Your welcome, Scott. Also where you place your mid limb posts determines the deflex to reflex ratio. The closer you place the mid limb posts to the riser the more deflex and less reflex you get. The closer to the tips you place the mid limb posts the less deflex and more reflex you get. General rule is placing them at exactly mid limb measuring from the end of the tips to the flares will yield a nice slightly deflexed with a little reflexed bow profile. You can slide the mid limb posts an inch or two either way to get a different profile. I wouldn't go more than two inches from mid limb either way. The theory is a bow with more deflex works more of the limb and will shoot a heavier arrow better, and a bow with more reflex works less of the limb and will shoot a lighter arrow faster.
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Makes sense. I will probably opt for dead middle for my first D/R. I will have to get the pieces shaved down first to see if there is enough wood to go forward. Is Unibond something you can find at a Home Depot, or will I have to order that?
Buckeye - I hear ya. Not often you find a piece of hedge that straight. Wish the stave was a little larger in dimension. Woulda been a fun build as a selfbow.
Scott
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I don't know why it wouldn't make a selfbow, just a quarter sawn stave, I think halfeye posted a few of them, Bub
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Three Rivers sells it.
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Ok here's an update...
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/11969D88-43A9-4FC6-8DDC-A992909D624D-305-0000001CEA01FB9E_zps5df7082c.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/52E38272-C7F4-40E0-8CAE-FAE9F35C22BD-305-0000001CDE3ACB51_zpsbfe169d5.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/C8215022-EE8B-45B4-A106-4663F9AD16BF-305-0000001CD8971CE1_zps094db92d.jpg)
I think I'm pretty close to glue up but I have a question first. Should I do something a out these depressions?
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/73F053F0-3220-42C2-9225-96C1F024C6B7-305-0000001CD2CEB51B_zpsb0842b2f.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/6BA2B3EC-5580-41EB-B64C-03E5993013E7-305-0000001CC97093CB_zps8416f068.jpg)
I thought about mixing glue with sawdust and filling it first then sanding after it dries before I glue hem together.
Scott
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Id thin that boo down more..that's too thick...it should be somewhere around 1/8" in the middle tapering to 1/16" at the tips. ....
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Yep Stringman what Roy showed is exactly how I do it.Thanks Roy.A picture is worth a thousand words.It's just like what Dean torges form is like.Adjustable also.
The fellas who showed me to do glue ups have done hundreds if not thousands of bows that a way,and by the way blackhawk those fellas are not novices using smooth on either.Never used Unibond but I'm sure it's good stuff.Your idea of filling those gaps should work if they are'nt like 1/4" deep.Hedge can handle that thicker bamboo without crushing but it's really not the right way.You'll end up reducing your hedge quite thin for your poundage.I would'nt over reduce your nodes on your bamboo either on the back side.The natural top view taper of your bamboo takes care of your tiller mostly.Reducing your bamboo to the same thickness the whole length and Roy's right don't crush a line on the back of that bamboo with a c clamp.
You're gonna like what you'll get.The handle you can get creative with putting thin 1/8" slats in between for accents etc.bloodwood,purpleheart,the list is endless.
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Your core is tapered of course too.Boy if i remember right if you start out at 7/16" thick at the handle it'll be enough of a bow up to 70# for sure.How you get the taper done on your core is up to you just so it's done evenly the whole length.There usually is'nt much tillering to do after the glue up is done.Practically all the tillering work is done to the parts before you glue it up.
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Thanks, Ed. Yeah I plan to thin the boo up still yet, and I am trying to get both pieces tapered and matched before going forward. I would like for this bow to come in around 60-65# so the thickness isn't a problem yet. I think I'm gonna go ahead and order some Unibond but should I still fill those void first or let the epoxy do the job? Also, it looks like I might need to heat in a little reflex before glue up. Is that true?
Scott
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Will your thickness taper eliminate some of that gap?If it is'nt in the working portion of the bow you should'nt need to worry.I imagine unibond is a gap filling glue as smooth on is.I've read smooth on is good to 1/16th" gap filling capabilities.Hard to tell without looking at the wood itself here.
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Alright I got the Unibond in the mail and I'm wondering how to fill those voids. I see 3 options. Leave them and let the glue fill them. Fill with Titebond then sand smooth after it cures, or do the same with Unibond. I guess what I'm concerned about is whether the epoxy will bond with the wood glue mixed with sawdust? Any ideas?
Scott
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I wouldn't be comfortable with such a (filled) cavity between my belly and bamboo backing, UNLESS it was strengtened with an additional handle right there. Could you remove more osage? Or is it already pretty thin? You could consider adding a third core laminate to beef up the blank, which means the osage can be thinner.
How did you flatten the osage and boo? I hope you used something better than a spoke shave.
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It was split to begin with. After some minor flattening with a drawknife or spoke shave I used a planer to flatten it further. If I took it down any more I am afraid the thickness might not allow a hunting weight bow. I had hoped that this void could be filled with a glue/wood fiber mix and then covered with a backing. Actually that is my plan. My concern is that the 2 glues won't bind with each other.
Scott
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To be honest, that void scares me to death. How deep is it? I also would thin the Osage to get the void out and add a thin core lam in the glue up. Tri lam bows are sharp and good shooters. Why take the chance of having a failure by filling the void with glue?
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+2 with what Ol Man River says!!!
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Well you bring up a valid point with the Tri lam idea. And I do have some hickory lathes laying around. Grains not perfect on the hickory, though. Will that matter since its sandwiched between the boo and sage?
Scott
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It should be ok, but red cedar would be super ok:)
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Why would you use two different glues?
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I agree with Roy on this one..I would plane that indenture out completely..do no put that under your boo..it will blow...if it takes too much of your wood out to hit your weight make a tri lam...however I wouldn't use red cedar though...I think hickory would look better plus more stable...cedar is so soft...compression is good but it ain't no hickory haha...Ole Roy made one or two BBO...lol...gut
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AH what do you know Gutster? LOL There ya go Scott, the hickory will work.
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I know Roy glues up a mean BBO....
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Perfect! That's what I was looking for. Thanks guys!
Scott
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Thanks Kirk, how ya like this one?
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If I tell ya I love it will you send it to me...lol...I do love it anyway..that is sweet ...
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Well, good, bad, or ugly, I'm going forward. I have planed the Osage down to remove the indenture and have cut the hickory so that it fits the profile. I heated the Osage in to the rough R/D shape and then made sure all the parts would dry fit before mixing any glue.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/08ED2744-455F-4DA5-A00E-2A183A2126AB-7889-00000BA5B3D8BC23_zps21be07af.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/E478521D-B4FE-47ED-BE24-6B02ECDB210F-7889-00000BA5BD022DA6_zpsec1fb617.jpg)
Then I mixed the Unibond and brushed it onto all surfaces. I know I spread it a little strong, but I reckon I would rather clean up the extra than to have a weak glue joint. Now I just gotta keep the workshop near 70 for a couple more hours and leave it on the form all night. Hope I didn't miss anything.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/EB7D169D-2711-4827-8879-AA19F156A3BF-7889-00000BA5C30776DE_zps78be0901.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/EC22832F-23E4-4F20-A9FE-C2876B9CED46-7889-00000BA5C9050FB4_zps9c4f933e.jpg)
Scott
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Ah Scott, ya glued it up backwards dude.
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LMAO........
It looks very nice, Scott. Only thing I would have done is put more clamps on her and wrapped her with plastic wrap to keep the mess off the bench and clamps. I clamp every two inches. But it will be ok. I love the r/d profile you heated in, that is sharp. Let us know how the Unibond works out, how did it mix up, what color is it, any smell?
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You did make me check the pictures again.. >:( ;D
The glue was easy to mix, but I mixed way too much. Oh well, not sure what else ill use it for anyway. It had almost no smell and the color was a tan pumpkin color. Only see one spot where there might be a gap and that is right in the handle section. It is already rubbery, but the shop is staying near 80 so no reason to mess with it. Will check it in the morning.
Scott
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I have to say Roy that on page 1 you gave the most concise description of building a laminated bow that I have ever read. Well done!
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Thanks Gordon after doing it for 10 years a guy learns a little bit:)..
Scott if that glue feels the least bit soft, or if you can indent it with your thumb nail, then let the bow sit for another day. But 80 degrees otta dry her up in a day. I have left bows clamped for two days many a time.
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Scott....
Scott....
Hey Scott............
We are waiting dude, how did the bow come out?
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Ok so I pulled it off the form this am and then went to town for groceries with the wife.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/56CBA6E7-21A1-40C5-BBD2-2843E0A4286B-8390-00000CA3B0FEB8C8_zps9ef69cc9.jpg)
After getting home I started cleaning the glue up and shaping the limbs a bit. Then I scraped out the riser section and cut out the laminations that would make up the handle.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/625C7F2D-1CCD-4525-ACB5-594E5F2C3DB3-8390-00000CA3AA935C9C_zpse95d8b40.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/C80C58C4-42E1-49AD-ABB8-F996DAEAE7FD-8390-00000CA3A2AF450E_zps061c8f63.jpg)
The handle will be hickory, cherry, and mesquite. After I had them all sanded and fitted, I mixed up more glue and clamped them in place.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/C85C3341-2051-464F-AFB4-366A2B06426D-8390-00000CA39CA9BF28_zpseba4702f.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/C8C98290-B1B4-40D9-829F-7E118A0646CB-8390-00000CA395D578FF_zpsd5716cff.jpg)
And more waiting...
Scott
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That handles gonna look slick :)
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Looks good, Scott.
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That's lookin pretty sweet! I've been toying with the idea of trying a laminate or two, but that's about as far as I've gotten. Josh
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She's taking shape. I like your shop Stringman, looks cozy and shows that its a working mans den with the rough old bench.
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Ok, I mentioned that I was a little out of my league, right?!?
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/1B99C479-D192-4563-9BB2-45AE33E71CDF-9128-00000D9F71021627_zpsee39d3fc.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/51E0B49D-8DC4-4EE0-85C6-0F4E1DEDB42A-9128-00000D9F6962A592_zps8f1ad5f5.jpg)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/3ABA9663-E713-4D07-B473-960FA58E78C0-9128-00000D9F6207A4AD_zps1beb0f11.jpg)
The way I see it, this is likely a result of 1 of 2 things. Either I didn't give the glue enough time to cure before I started scraping on the belly or the 2 pieces had some oil that I failed to remove. Am I on the right track? And is there a remedy for this delamination?
Scott
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I think the problem is the fade doesn't extend into the limb so you basically have it bending all the length, pop goes the riser, at least that's how I see it, Bub
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As soon as I saw that glue up and additional riser, I knew this was bound to happen. You should have glued in a powerlam between the osage and bamboo. That would have stiffened up the handle area, preventing bend in the handle that will result in popping handles. Not much you can do about it now; it's too late to add a power lam. Your best bet is to glue up many THIN layers of wood (under 1/8") and to build up a handle like that. Still no guarantee...but the current riser must come off first.
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So the hickory between the boo and Osage didn't serve as that "power lam?"
Oh well, it was a fun build, but I think I betters stick with selfbows. Thanks for all the help guys!
Scott
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Ouch and the guys are right, the limbs are bending right to the riser and popping it off.
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I don't see a powerlam between the boo and the 'sage, I make mine about 16" long 1/8" thick and taper from the mid point to a feather edge
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Ahhh, ur right. I missed that step.
Scott
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bubby is correct.
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Hello...make your handle area, a little longer....calculate your handle, and your fades, to be arrounde 14" long...put some extra thinn strips under that handle u already have...u want themm to be 1/8 thick...and make the fade transition, verry smooth....u need aboute 4 moore strips under that handle, and make your fade much longer, thann u usuly do on a self bow...and whenn u tiller the bow, be carrefull, not to let it bend to much in the fades...:)...
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Hi there
Don't give up yet!
Take a look at this solution before you decide to give up on laminates ;)
http://gunnars-workshop.dk/gunnars-workshop.dk/Raiseren_gar_fra.html (http://gunnars-workshop.dk/gunnars-workshop.dk/Raiseren_gar_fra.html)
The text is in danish, but the pictures are pretty self-explanatory - Gunnar is really a bowyer with some great ideas.
Cheers :)