Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Galelyan on January 08, 2013, 01:11:01 pm
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So recently me and a buddy of mine just kind of jumped into the bow making scene, but all we've really had to go on are general how to's online and other internet tips. I've kinda been just feeling my way through the dark these past couple weeks and I've hit the point where I need to ask some experienced craftspeople for advice, mostly to do with backing because I'm pretty paranoid about maiming myself with a poorly made bow :D so apologies beforehand for a massive amount of questions
1. I have a pair of knots going parallel to the grain (kind of like a pair of speed humps on a road if that clarifies things), so my carving's gotten kinda messy around those bumps, should i take a file and sand those down? or just use the file to clean up the area around them and leave the actual knots alone?
2. how thin does my rawhide need to be to back the bow properly? I'm using an unwound and flattened piece that used to be a dog chew
3.will sandpaper be enough to sand down the rawhide when it's dry to get it to the right thickness
4. how much will a backing increase my draw length? i'm still around 4 inches from my target of 28", and if there isn't a surefire answer, is it possible for me to back the bow and then tiller the bow more if the backing isn't enough to reinforce the bow for another 4 inches?
5. when i was tillering, there were a couple times where i head a sudden cracking noise, there's no visible damage, but how worried should i be? I did remove more wood from the limbs after that to get some more length
6. Can someone give me a quick explanation on how backing works? some sites said that backing could give the bow a bit of recurve, but if the hide shrinks as it drys, wouldn't it pull the wood backwards and give it a curved shape less optimal for getting a lot of force to the arrow?
I did take note of the problems in the limb bends (mostly on the limb to the viewer's right) and marked some areas i'm going to remove more wood from to normalize the bow's arc, but advice on this would still be appreciated
I know there's a lot of stuff to read and answer here, but thank's in advance for getting through all that text and any info that you guys might have
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You would probably get more of a response if one of the mods would be so kind and move it to the bow section. Looks like you have a hinge forming about six inches out from the fade on the right. The cracking could be from a splinter getting ready to pop on one of the sharp egdes. The edges of the limbs need to be rounded off. They will be less likely to pop a splinter, and that gets you going on a bad day in most cases. I prefer deer rawhide for back a bow. its already thin. Unless you stretched the dog chew out tight, it will probably take quite a bit of sanding. The majority of the deer rawhide I use is pretty much paper thin. Once you get itbacked you still need to finish the tiller out to 28 inches. Don't assume the rawhide will make it bomb proof. If you flip the tips and sinew back it, the sinew will draw up and add some recurve to the limbs. I can't say that rawhide has ever drew up that much with me. I hope some of this helps.
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alright i'm gonna thin out some of the wood farther out on the limb to fix that hinge, and once i back it, i'm gonna be taking wood from the face of the bow? Can you elaborate a bit more on the part about flipping the tips and sinew backing? I'm not sure I get it.
Thanks for the info, i'll definitely round out the edges more asap
Would it be easier to sand/scrape down the rawhide after it fully dries? right now i'm using a combination of sandpaper and scraping my knife blade against the slightly damp hide and it seems to be working, but I definitely see what you mean by a LOT of sanding
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when you say face do you mean the back of the bow? (the back face away from the shorter bellie towards the shorter). a sinew backing is a backing of pounded animal tendons it is one of the few backing that adds performance it will reflex the bow and give you more draw length Bryce dose a good job of showing how to do it in here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36617.0.html
could you give us the dimensions of your bow
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ohhhhhhh.... ok this makes SO much more sense now hahaha, ok, yeah what i was calling the "face" was the part facing away from the archer, but if that's actually the back then this clears up a lot for me.
my bow is 58" from nock to nock, each limb is about 24" long and from there it ramps upwards into the handle, i'm pretty sure the wood i'm using is cedar, but it could be whitewood (if those are the same, my bad, like i said, this is my first bow), i have a 55" string on order. Let me know if there's anymore info you need.
about the knots on the left limb, should i sand those out? i intend for it to be the bottom if that affects anything.
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Flipping the tips is done by either heating, boiling, or steaming the limbs and putting it in a form to put a little recurve in the limbs. Some people also use a combo, depending on the wood. Where did you get the wood for the bow? The grain on teh side of the bow looks a lot like some whitepine I have at the shop. As for the rawhide, I would stretch it and let it dry, them if you have one, use some 60 or 80 grit sandpaper and a sander.
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I got the wood from Lowe's it was a generic 2x4 that had a mostly straight grain and only a couple knots in it.
regarding the rawhide. I'm a college student trying to finish this bow in my dorm room so, i have no power tools or extra lumber available, just my knife, some clamps, and wood glue pretty much, oh and sand paper, 100 grit.
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if it's a plain old 2x4 it's not going to be a bow wood they should sell red oak boards and maybe maple those would be better to start on. in the mean time tell us what trees you have available to you so you can get some wood seasoning
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I got oak, cedar, maple, and ash trees in the area
how thin does this hide need to be to give a decent backing?
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I've never done a raw hide backing so can't pitch in on that. but if the ceader is juniper ( as juniper is often called ceder) those are all good bow woods, juniper is excellent as a short sinew backed bow. certain woods require special attention when reducing to a stave generally it's cut, split, debark, seal ends of stave with polyurethane,wood glue, something to keep the moisture from escaping to fast.
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alright, thanks guys.
should i be sanding out the two knots i mentioned earlier? or should i leave them alone?
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I've never made a board bow, only from staves. The advice to round the edges was good advice, I typically use a scrapper to do this. Doesn't require much more then just getting rid of that "sharp" corner using a scrapper held at a 45 degree, then sand those edges.
Those knotts would scare me since they've been violated (cut through) on the back because it's a board. Definitely would back the bow, deer hide would be much easier to get flush with the bow's back (side facing away from you when holding the bow if shooting it). The "belly" would be the surface facing you when holding for shooting. You'll probably end up with the knot section of the limb stiff, but probably need to reduce them some on the belly side...having the knots makes this a much more difficult bow to deal with for a beginner!
I don't think I would flip the tips on your bow, would put more stress on the limbs that they may not be able to handle. 58" nock to nock is fairly short when trying to achieve a 28" draw...especially when you have a couple of knots in the one limb that may not allow as much bending in that space. Can be done, but more challenging for a beginner. Not sure what kind of final draw weight you're looking for.
The "hinge" in the right limb is pretty bad considering from the picture that you're only about at brace. the stress of pulling a bow back is applied to "both" limbs, that stress is looking for the weakest spot to show up in. Trying to fix the hinge should also involve getting the left limb bending more as well which will help to relieve the hinge, in addition to removing material further out on the right limb to remove/reduce the hinge.
As I mentioned earlier, in my opinion this is a challenging piece of wood to make a bow from. It could fail, and if it does, please look at it as a positive learning process that we've all gone through! You're in the early stages of learning bow making, experts still learn something most likely from each bow they build.
You might consider coming to the Tn. Classic in May and making a bow during that time. There are many very experienced folks there to help, and you would leave with many of your questions on bow building answered. Good luck!
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when i first started i was thinking i could get maybe a 35-40 lb draw, that some pretty misplaced confidence though haha, i think i might be able to get high 20s maybe to 30, but at this point i'd just like to have a working bow so i know i have the basics down.
I've been exercising the bow after i remove wood from the limbs, will the wood get harder to carve into as i exercise the bow more? or is it just that my knife is failing on me?
if the knots have already been violated as you said, does that mean i should just sand them out to try and get a more uniform limb?
Just finished applying my rawhide to one of the limbs, but i don't think i had enough glue on there, is that a big problem?
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The knots have been violated on the "back", meaning they're cut through and opened up the grain around the knots which will allow splintering as the bow is drawn. Hopefully the backing will provide some protection from that happening. On the "belly" side, the wood is compressed when bow drawn, that is where all your material removal should take place during tillering other then sanding of the "back" to slick it up (don't sand through the grain). Again, my experience is with staves, not boards where you're looking for the parallel grain going down the limbs. I would reduce those knots some with a rasp on the belly side just if for no other reason to remove some of the physical wood weight. Still probably will end up leaving that section of the limb stiff on the final tiller due to the risk of those knots. I'm not sure what kind of wood you have there. If hickory, better chance of a finished bow outcome...if some other, maybe less depending.
Tillering is basically removing material from the belly side to evenly distribute the stress of drawing the bow. Sounds simple, but it does take experience. I typically leave the last four inches or so on the tip end stiff, and also out of the fades a little stiff earlier during tiller, then ease into getting them bending more towards the final tiller. Having a tillering tree is a big plus in that you can see your draw length and poundage at the same time...also can quickly look at the limbs to pick out where you want to make adjustments without keeping it stressed for long. Also, NEVER draw the bow beyond where you want the final poundage to be. Just puts undue stress on the limbs.
If you have voids where you didn't have enough glue, that will allow the rest of the backing the ability to start pealing off, or more likely let go suddenly when drawing the bow. We always first clean all surfaces to be glued with acetone to remove any natural oils. The Bowyers Bible Volume One is a good book to read on making a self bow if you don't already have it.
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Thought you might get more responce here. :)
Pappy
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You should take a look at the Archive section of this website, and also the buildalong section. There is a wealth of information with good pictures to go along with it. Also I'd recommend picking up at least the first volume of the Bowyer's Bible. I believe there are four volumes total, but the first one will get you started.
As for the bow you've got started you shouldn't expect much from it. A 2x4 isn't the way to go for a bow, and like others have pointed out you've got a fairly bad hinge forming, and those knots are going to be problematic even with a backing. But if you are determined to finish it out, i would sand down those knots on the belly, remove that hinge (by removing material everywhere on the limb except the weak spot), and back it with that rawhide that you have. You probably have your work cut out for you getting that rawhide down to thickness without a belt sander but if your patient it can be done.
Once you've finished up with this bow, I'd recommend that you buy a maple or oak board with as straight a grain as possible. I'd also recommend that you go out and cut down a suitable tree (if you have legal access to some) and get some staves drying. I've found self bows to be far more satisfying than board bows.
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I guess i'll do some stress tests on the backing after the glue and hide finish drying :-\
I got the leather to a bit under a 1/16" by scraping across it with my knife, so hopefully that won't work out too badly, assuming the glue holds
Definitely gonna get some better wood and leather for my next go at this, i'm not sure what the laws are about cutting down trees here, but i'll look into it
thanks for all the help everyone
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I hate to sound negative here, especially to someone starting out. Don't get discouraged by what I say , as there is always an exception to the rule.
A 2x4 or the like is probably the worst choice for what you are doing. Spruce /Fir /Pine are on the bottom of the list of bow woods to begin with. Couple that with a moisture content of 15% (approx.) and severe violation of knots and less than ideal handleing of the wood from the time it is cut as a tree, and you are setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration ( totaly the wood and not because of your skills.) I'd hate to see you give up ,thinking it's beyond you ,when I know you can do it with the proper piece of wood.
As a side note, construction grade lumber gets dipped in a chemical bath at the mill (fungicide and pesticide) that you probably don't want to expose your lungs to any more than necessary. It's recommended that you don't burn it and wear a mask when cutting it (not that that ever happens) . Just giving the info here. You do with it what you want.
The cracking sound you hear is likely from the knots. I would be amazed if any kind of backing would keep that in tact. The rawhide would only keep pieces from flying all about when this one blows.
You mentioned cutting some trees as well. This is a great way to make a bow,...................... If you know what you are doing. It's not just a matter of chopping it down and shaping it into a bow. You have to know what you are looking for in a tree. Hidden insect damage ,knots ,spiral grain, disease, etc,etc,etc, will all make a tree worth more to everyone left standing, than cut down and turned into a failed bow. Consider the amount of time a tree has taken to grow to that size and endeavor to craft something that will last at least that long . It doesn't always work out that way but it makes you think long enough that you will pass on something that doesn't really suit your needs. After you cut it(assuming you didn't incorporate any damage due to improper felling) It then needs to be split (maybe) and seasoned properly ,so it doesn't mould, crack , check etc. This could take a few months or a few years.
IMHO your best bet would be to get 1x2 board (Oak,Maple,Ash, Hickory) with nice straight grain, and check out the build along that "Bubby" has on this site or check out GeorgeTsoukala's website which can also be found through this site. A little more time on research will payoff greatly with time not wasted with the wrong board. Best of luck !Looking forward to seeing that first bow.
P.S. it never hurts to find a mentor in your area that you can talk to face to face. Saves a lot of time typing. ;)
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Duly noted :D
yeah cutting down a whole tree when i'm still on my first bow is a tad bit excessive haha, but i'll definitely take up that piece on the 1x2, had i done that in the first place this process would probably have only taken me half the time
does the draw weight of a bow and it's length-draw length ratio depend on the wood? because to get a longer draw length we remove wood from the limbs, but removing wood reduces the bow's draw weight and the strength of the limb in exchange for flexibility doesn't it? So if i choose a type of wood that isn't naturally really springy am I signing myself over to a weaker bow?
hey, just saw your comment on the other newbie posting about bows exploding from low moisture content, I'm in a dorm room so... what should my moisture level be and is there a way for me to get there somewhat accurately?
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You might want to consider the laws regarding building weapons in your dorm room as well as having the hand tools and knives you have in there as well. Weapons are a real touchy subject right now with all the gun control talk and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say bows in dorm room might be frowned on. Maybe I'm wrong though. Good luck with your bow. I'm building my first one as well so I'm no help as far as how to build it.
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yeahhhh, i really don't want to get into a discussion on weapons controls on a craftsmen's forum, but i'm keeping quiet on what im doing :-X how's your first going for you?
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Galelyan,
I recommend that you spend some time looking at the following.
George Tsoukalas http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
&
Sam Harper http://poorfolkbows.com/index.html
Make sure you understand what kind of board you are looking for (Straight Grain). Don’t expect to find good boards every time you look. If you have several hardware stores that carry hardwood look at them all. I would go no shorter than 68” for a first bow.
Keith
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Short answer :yes! Every piece of wood is different ,even within the same species. Learning what stlye ,size , weight and draw each is capable of comes with experience. The beauty of this site is you can draw on the accumulation of hundreds of lifetimes worth of experience from all over the world . Thanks again PA for providing this to all of us!
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yeahhhh, i really don't want to get into a discussion on weapons controls on a craftsmen's forum, but i'm keeping quiet on what im doing :-X how's your first going for you?
Mine is going well. I started from cutting my own osage tree and I'm to the point of shaping my handle and getting ready to start tillering. This is the part that is scary. Mistake at this point can be costly. :o