Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: adb on December 28, 2012, 03:10:12 pm
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Everyone keeps asking me how I do my horn nock inserts... well, here goes. Select and cut your horn pieces. I cut the nock insert slot on my bandsaw (yes, it's cheating) with the grain of the shaft. Fit each piece individually by sanding out the slot.
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Then I glue in each piece with 5 min epoxy. Clamp and let dry. Notice how I leave a bit of extra horn, so I have something to hold on to while gluing.
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After the epoxy hardens, I hit them with the belt sander and knock off the extra horn and glue. Easy-peasy.
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After that, I taper the last third of the shaft by hand on the belt sander down to 3/8". I put a pencil mark around the shaft where I want the taper to start. Keep going (gently) until you have a nice taper down to 3/8". I roll the shaft with one hand, and apply gentle pressure with the other. Change rolling direction every once in a while.
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Then I cut in the nocks with a round tile cutting hack saw blade. I usually go 1/4" to 3/8" deep.
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Last step is to round the end, and I also cut a small V groove on the edge of each nock. This is only cosmetic. I just think it looks better.
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That's it. Pretty simple, actually. I hope this helps someone!
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Excellent how-to!
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I like the added V groove, it seems to me it's practical in that it would eliminate the string pinching out of the nock. (I use a thumb draw and a super short bow)
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ADB, I don't make war arrows and when I try this method on 3/8th shafts, I have little room for error and not alot of wood on each side of the slot, and also it concerns me when I see gaps in my slot fit...I hope the glue will adequately fill the gaps..any tips?
Thanks.
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You can make the inserts thinner for smaller shafts, infact i sand all my inserts down to 2mm even for war arrows.
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You can make the inserts thinner for smaller shafts, infact i sand all my inserts down to 2mm even for war arrows.
Agreed. I make my inserts for smaller shafts much less thick. You need to be very precise in getting your slot cut straight and in the middle of the shaft. I cut the slot slightly undersize, and then fit each piece by sanding the slot.
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These horn strips at 2.mm now so I'll try to shave a few down and see.
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Nice buildalong, thank you, very helpfull!
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I have little room for error and not alot of wood on each side of the slot, and also it concerns me when I see gaps in my slot fit...I hope the glue will adequately fill the gaps..any tips?
I use a backsaw to make the cut, slowly and carefully to keep it straight. If you're using power tools you can make a simple jig to do the job. I use files and paper to get the insert to fit then clamp it shut smothered in superglue.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj7/AnLoki/ghfgh.jpg)
Horn rod inserts are a lot trickier to do, they have a nice snap on the string but they're a nightmare to make!
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj7/AnLoki/dsci0004fl0.jpg)
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This build-along is AWESOME! ;D
I've been looking for a nice, well documented build-along for horn nock inserts, and this fits the bill. I'd recommend this as a sticky topic for sure. It's going in my big book of bow-making lore.
By the way, the first belt sander image is funny - it looks like you're about to launch the arrow at high velocity. If I wasn't so busy I'd do a little Monty Python-esque animation in Flash just for fun.
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Thanks, ADB. Very instructive, very much to the point.
You make wonderfully beautiful arrows, thanks for sharing your tips and tricks.
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Thanks adb! This is a great tutorial!
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i would like to see this done with antler if anyone would like to give it a go that would be cool
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I'm assuming you could also do this with hard wood insert. Something like Ipe or cocobolo?
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I'm assuming you could also do this with hard wood insert. Something like Ipe or cocobolo?
I never thought of that before - it opens up a whole lot of interesting possibilities. Purple Heart, for instance. I assume though that you would want the lightest material due to balance issues. Would bone work?
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I dont know how it would effect balance, but would that tony if an insert make a big difference? I would think you could do a footed arrow with the same wood used for insert and foot?
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One of the guys I shoot with has used maple and ebony for inserts. The maple was from a luthier and very high grade quilted so once polished and finished it looked stunning. I've tried with leather as well, but using horn seems to give me the best results.
I was flicking through Pip Bickerstaffe's "The heritage of the longbow" recently and he outlined a horn nock insert that was wedge shaped, the wide end of the wedge at the nock end, tapering to a point 2 inches long. Apparently that was far more traditional, but I've not seen it mentioned anywhere else.
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2 inches??
That would be a heck of a groove to cut...
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As far as I know, the standard EWBS arrows all require a 2inch nock insert. That's what I've been doing anyway! It's not too bad for a straight flat piece of horn, but doing it with a wedge shape must be pretty finicky, and I can imagine losing quite a few arrows trying it.
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I'm assuming you could also do this with hard wood insert. Something like Ipe or cocobolo?
Yes, no problem. I've done it with padauk, purpleheart, cocbolo, ebony and bloodwood. Works great, looks good, and is easier than horn.
The green & white arrows have purpleheart inserts, and the red & black have cocobolo.
I normally cut my inserts 1.5" deep on arrows for target weight bows, and the standard 2" deep for warbow weight. The difference in weight between the insert material and the wood you remove to insert it is negligible. No balance issues. It's much less than the weight of a plastic nock.
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I was flicking through Pip Bickerstaffe's "The heritage of the longbow" recently and he outlined a horn nock insert that was wedge shaped, the wide end of the wedge at the nock end, tapering to a point 2 inches long. Apparently that was far more traditional, but I've not seen it mentioned anywhere else.
Be careful of quoting Pip he a lot of things he says are questionable. However the term traditional is that applied to Georgan / Victorian target ELBs not medieval style warbows and arrows. As with everything else to do with War Bows we only have limited information (generally documentary) to go on and wedge shaped reinforcing is not mentioned. While that does not mean it did not exist but only that it is not mentioned and none of the Tudor arrows found on the Mary Rose are reported to have been reinforced by wedge shaped inserts. As using wedge shaped reinforcement is both more difficult and expensive (using more horn as it does and requiring more work) but offers no performance improvements, it is highly unlikely that the crown would have paid for such arrows for use by their troops.
Craig.
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Good.
I've been racking my brains trying to figure out how on earth someone using medieval tools could ever be able to rapidly produce those wedge nocks me coming up dry. One wonders if the massive numbers of arrows used in set battles would even have had reinforcements at all. They were essentially single use weapons that might well only be unpacked the momnwt they were to be shot. Would the single use nocks really require durability added by a horn insert? Or would this be a feature only to be found in target and hunting arrows?
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The horn insert in the nock was to reinforce it so it wouldn't split under the massive pressure exerted by heavy draw weight bows used for war.
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I wrap my selfnocks tightly with linen string and put some glue on the wrapping. Up to 80 pounds I never had the slightest trouble with arrow splitting.
I don't know if this system would also work with 100+ pound warbows. Anybody tested this?
ciao,
gian-luca
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How many of us ever make an arrow knowing we'll only shoot it once?
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Has anybody had horn nocks break while shooting? I recently finished a set of 12 arrows for a 60# ELB with 2" horn inserts, cut with the grain so that the nock was at 90 degrees to the grain. Within an hour of shooting two of the arrows had broken at the nock, both the same way - the horn and adjacent wood had completely split and blown off. Surely the whole point of going through hours of work making inserts is to avoid this happening?!
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I've never had this happen, even with 100s of shots from heavy (100#) war bows. What type of nock insert are you using, what kind of glue are you using, and how precise are your horn to arrow shaft tolerances?
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... that the nock was at 90 degrees to the grain...
Sorry... I got totally the wrong end of this ... I thought we were talking bows not arrows...
But back on track, my guess would be the nock being tight on the string and it splitting like a wedge in a log.
I always go for a slight keyhole effect with the bottom of the slot well rounded and open so it's loose on the string, but with the other end of the slot just tight enough to stop the arrow falling off the string.
Arrow diameter, insert width? Pic might help.
Del
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I'll add some pics a bit later, but the arrows are 11/32, 40# spined boyton pine. The inserts are buffalo horn, the glue is 2 part epoxy and the tolerance is the best I could do without machining. They're pretty darn accurate I think.
It might be what Del mentioned I guess. I cut the string nock with a multitool saw which is almost the identical width of the string. I then use a file to smooth and widen then nock until it requires a minute effort to "click" the arrow onto the string.
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I'll add some pics a bit later, but the arrows are 11/32, 40# spined boyton pine. The inserts are buffalo horn, the glue is 2 part epoxy and the tolerance is the best I could do without machining. They're pretty darn accurate I think.
It might be what Del mentioned I guess. I cut the string nock with a multitool saw which is almost the identical width of the string. I then use a file to smooth and widen then nock until it requires a minute effort to "click" the arrow onto the string.
Maybe you need to go up in arrow diameter, I got some poplar ones about 3/8" for the 90# warbow I made from Richard Head (got points too)
I think 11/32 is maybe a tad skinny.
Del
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I've figured out that it is indeed the fact that I cut the string nocks too narrow. Just checked over every arrow, and every single one of them has a split starting from the throat of the nock. That's 24 arrows, all with horn inserts and hand-cut fletchings and bindings that I will have to scrap and re-make. Fun!
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How much room did you leave between nock and fletching? How long is the fletching?
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1.5" between nock and fletching, and the fletchings are 6.5" long.
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Room to trim the self nocks off and recut? Have a 1/2" shorter arrow?
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Possibly on some, but on others I think by the time I get down to clean unsplit wood I'll need to remove all the fletchings and such. I think I'll chop off a bit of the end, and taper them to fit plastic nocks (blasphemy!) so that they're at least shootable. I draw them to the head anyway, so losing more length would be a bit of a problem!!
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I've had a few break on me at the nock, from arrows i've made my self and from arrows made by others. I can only think it came from over use..?
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Mine were definitely down to me cutting the string nock too tightly. I'm gonna try taping three hacksaw blades together and see if I get a better fit without having to muck about filing each one until they're ok.
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I found a tile saw to be the best thing for cutting nocks.
(http://www-img.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/89399.jpg)