Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: CedrikG on December 25, 2012, 09:48:32 am
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Hey guy's! first of all merry Christmas to everyone!
I really do not want to start a debate here, especially in this beautiful snowy 25 december morning. I just want to share my opinion which is why forum are ...While 99% of the thing I dont agree with I keep for me, this something that I truly believe is unacceptable and could'nt hold myself to tell. Actually it is the only thing that I dont agree with that I share, and probably the last one to. Also I want to make sure you understand I am not going to answer any argumentation, as I said this is not a debate. You will not see any reply from me on this thread, but you can always share your opinion on my opinion ;) Which will never, ever change my thinking on the subject, just to many people tried in the past without any chance of success. That said I also know that I have no chance of changing your mind neither
I always been a big... BIG lover of animals ... and I truly believe it is an enormous tragedy to kill thousand of snake each year just to put a skin on its bow. It almost is a genocide to me. It is for these kind of act that I really always hated human race ... Only human is dumb enough to kill just to remove skin ... horn just to decorate. I believe it is that destructive behavior that will lead the human to its end. Please do not confuse killing for eating, and killing for decoration. I am a huge carnivore.
People will say : They are everywhere here.
This sound as stupid as a juicy fart to my ear. Do we have to wait until there are no more to react, thats what human do for everything, wait until the very end to react. Anyway it is not the snake that are everywhere, its the human race that is invasive
Just wanted to share my opinion. Anyway ... a snake skin back is extremely ugly in my opinion, it really ruin a bow that was superb at the beginning.
This forum is amazing, actually the best I found, so much knowledge is showed ... and amazing people with incredible skill. That said, maybe it is not my place because of the way I think.
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Merry Christmas as well :) everyone is entitled to their own opinion ;) personally I love animals! They taste great!!!
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Very few of my bows get skins on them..only the ones deserving of such an honor get them...and I believe plants,animals,minerals,n natural materials were given to us for us to use in a "resourceful" way. And while we may not agree with all of ones state fish n game laws(which are usually petty grievances),they do and are protecting any one species from being over harvested here in the united states. That's my two cents
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Here's my opinion, for what its worth...
I breed and keep snakes and lizards. They're pets to me and I think they're awesome animals. However I have no problem at all with people using snake skin backings. In some parts of the world they ARE pests. Take the Burmese python invasion for instance. Evolution has shaped them into perfect predators, which is fine and naturally balanced in their original environment but when introduced as an alien species they become a problem!
As an animal lover and snake obsessive I'd much rather see them culled and used for backings which display their natural beauty than thrown away.
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tho i am not as attracted to snake skins on bows as many are, that just a personal preference, nothing more or less.
as for the killing of snakes, i would guess many of the skins you see, the snakes get eaten too.
often venomous snakes are killed cuz folks have children, pets and loved ones who may be harmed or killed if bitten.
if i find a venomous snake close to the house(you would be amazed how many copperheads live in the city), its gotta go
in the southeastern usa, non-native snakes have become a serious problem.
and have begun to have a major impact on the native birds and small animals.
Happiest of Holidays to each and everyone on PA!
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Animals are put on earth for the use of man. We have and do use them for work, pets, recreation and food and clothing etc. I feel if you kill an animal it better be for a good reason and it should be eatin or destroyed if diseased. I see no reason why we should not use every part of an animal that we kill. But killing for "sport" and not using the meat is wrong. The way things are set-up now its up to the hunters to keep the animals in check so as to prevent any disease or starvation to run wild in their habitat and snakes come in here too. Snakes released on an island ( forget the name ) have destroyed all the birds on the island, we now have non native snakes in the USA, in the swamps, they need to be removed. Snakes come as canned meat too so the skins should be used for something as well as the meat. I think skins as bow decorations are beautiful.
Just my 2 cents. ;)
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Hey guy's! first of all merry Christmas
Well back at ya!
I always been a big... BIG lover of animals ... and I truly believe it is an enormous tragedy to kill thousand of snake each year just to put a skin on its bow. It almost is a genocide to me.
Just askin butttttttt..... what would the trees think about your bows!!! If your going to hug snakes you should also hug trees. Before you judge me for this statement just remember I have a registered treefarm to replace the wood I use do you?
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Merry X-mas Cedrik.
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My Opinion: I think it must be a human quirk that we all have favorite animals and birds and therefore think of them differently than the others. For some time for example I hated feral cats because they killed birds. And as I have gotten much older now I have become much more of a philosopher, it has occurred to me as has always been, there is a food chain and it has always evolved. Working on a ranch just outside of Yellowstone years ago we found the native rattlers to be a problem as they would bite the livestock and kill the cattle dogs. Therefore we killed them and I made bow backings and hat bands out of the skins. We must not have destroyed the resource as there are as many of them now as back then and they are still a threat! My local source for skins is from the propane delivery man who picks the dead ones off the road. The many bows I have that are skin backed are that way for the purpose of non reflective camo. Not sure where the stats came from about how many snakes we primitive folks kill and use for backings? Also not to sure I understand making statements about others that use skins here and then not being willing to continue the thought provoking process. Hope I haven't offended anyone. A/Ho Joe
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Nothing wrong with giving your opinion, or in having different one's from others regarding animals or backings, especially if it is well informed.
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A quote I discovered on a web search. I could not find who wrote it so no source is given.
“Closed-minded means that you believe that all theories except your own are nonsense, even if you haven't studied those theories. A good example would be a physicist saying that quantum entanglement is nonsense, even if he has just studied classical Newtonian mechanics.
An open-minded person would think that maybe quantum entanglement is possible, even if he is unable to comprehend how it is possible with his current understanding of physics.”
You put forth: “I really do not want to start a debate here, especially in this beautiful snowy 25 december morning. I just want to share my opinion which is why forum are …”
No, not really. Forums exist for so much more, they allow each of us to share our experiences, talents, and indeed even opinions.
You continue: “You will not see any reply from me on this thread, but you can always share your opinion on my opinion Which will never, ever change my thinking on the subject, just to many people tried in the past without any chance of success.”
To say never, ever is to be somewhat close minded.
You conclude: "Just wanted to share my opinion. Anyway ... a snake skin back is extremely ugly in my opinion, it really ruin a bow that was superb at the beginning."
Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder. :)
Merry Christmas to you also!
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:)
Thanks for your opinion guy's, and thanks for keeping it cool even tought it is a ''hot'' topic.
Iowabow : I appreciate your implication. If you did a little researsh on me you would realise I been studying trees for years, that they are my main interest, the reason why I love making bow so much. You would also realised I planted hundred of thousand of trees and plant, and that the only living tree I ever cutted in over 5 years is last summer, a black ash that was going to be cut few weeks later because of new house planting.
I used every inch of that tree, and made a fantastic bow from it.
that said I really share your point and thanks for caring about it.
Did I really reply ... I promised I would not. But please take in consideration that if i seem so ... affected by the subject, I probably take the precaution to not fall into the same trap.
_Jon_ : Thanks for opening my mind :)
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Hey guy's! first of all merry Christmas to everyone!
I always been a big... BIG lover of animals ... and I truly believe it is an enormous tragedy to kill thousand of snake each year just to put a skin on its bow. It almost is a genocide to me.
I don't want a snakeskin on any of my bows. I don't set out to kill snakes, but would kill any poisonous one that crossed my path.
But the important thing here to me is that YOU HORRIBLY CHEAPEN THE MEANING OF THE WORD GENOCIDE by applying it to the killing of snakes.
Jim Davis
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:)
Thanks for your opinion guy's, and thanks for keeping it cool even tought it is a ''hot'' topic.
Iowabow : I appreciate your implication. If you did a little researsh on me you would realise I been studying trees for years, that they are my main interest, the reason why I love making bow so much. You would also realised I planted hundred of thousand of trees and plant, and that the only living tree I ever cutted in over 5 years is last summer, a black ash that was going to be cut few weeks later because of new house planting.
I used every inch of that tree, and made a fantastic bow from it.
that said I really share your point and thanks for caring about it.
Did I really reply ... I promised I would not. But please take in consideration that if i seem so ... affected by the subject, I probably take the precaution to not fall into the same trap.
_Jon_ : Thanks for opening my mind :)
I am glad you understood my point because many people in here practice conservation on the land they own and also recycle snakes dead on the road. I feel you threw them under the bus with this post.
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iowabow : Maybe due to my lack of english. I tried to be clear on the fact that I was talking about those killing FOR the skin.
I'm off trekking in the wood with the familly for X-MAS, please dont let me ruin your morning, enjoy your day !
Just wanted to talk about something that was really to hard to hold, I really never make hot topic usually but I believe I woke up on the wrong foot this morning
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Interesting thing I just discovered while surfing the web in connection to this topic. People actually have business farms that raise snakes for numerous things, such as skins, venom, and scientific study.
Learn something every day. :)
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Ok I cant let this go so here it is.... good forestry requires trees to be cut. This process provides better lumber, better food for animals, and diversity. So you do not need to cut dead trees. The fact is cutting dead trees removes habitat for snakes as well as other animals and birds. I can send you information on conservation if you would like.
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Merry X-mas Cedrik.
X2
To me it's kind of the Cow Horse argument when someone singles out one resource over another. Why is it OK to eat a Cow and not a Horse? These decisions fall within personal guide lines and though I don't eat horse I've got no grievance with those that do? I think the responsible use of all resources it right for those who wish to use them as Long as it is within the law. Peoples use of fur for garment is controversial, California has laws that not only prohibit hunting lions but it is illeagle to bring any part of a legally killed lion into the state that probably has one of the largest populations in the country!!!! I site this example because its shows what can happen when personal feelings and beliefs over rule science, logic and conservation practices.
Time to put the bird in the oven (it's huge!!!!)....
Merry Christmas Everybody!!!!
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I'm also not a fan of the snake backings. That being said I did give it a chance. Turned out to be one of the bows I gave away.
I use sturgeon skin now and not only is it attractive but the fish was caught with the intent of eating, not just its skin, I also keep the jaw, and bladder for making glue. Hardly any waste.
Breaks my heart deer or elk hunting to come across a gut pile with all this good stuff laying there rotting. The heart, liver, gut, intestines, ect. All have a use in my book. Not just the hind quarters and antlers.....
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I've seen pictures of some Cougars that look good enough to eat:)
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I love snake skin backed bows ;)
Merry Christmas
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I have never backed a bow with snake skin. Think I'll give it a try. Beyond that, its kind of hard to have any rational discourse with some of the same species that hates the human race.
Robby
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Hey I'm totally with you.. Shame shame on a person that would skin a dead snakes just to put it on a bow!! SHAME!! >:(
A most horrid sin.. Not to mention the ethics of it... Shameful behavior >:(
Cipriano
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I've seen pictures of some Cougars that look good enough to eat:)
They are really good!
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I've seen pictures of some Cougars that look good enough to eat:)
They are really good!
I don't know about cougars, but I ate a bear once. Rather tasty..
Cipriano
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I personally see no difference in harvesting any species, on the other hand if there are no laws to hovern a "reasonable" harvest I thiink there should be for whatever species. Snake or not....I do like snake skin backing, but think I will be trying synthetic in the near future.
VMB
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The whole thing, Cipriano? ;D
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I've seen pictures of some Cougars that look good enough to eat:)
They are really good!
I don't know about cougars, but I ate a bear once. Rather tasty..
Cipriano
Iam a consumer of black bear. Any other type of bear that I've tried just wasn't that good or really greasy.
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Pat almost.. I spit the claws out ;D
PC it was a very lean black bear
Cipriano
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Oooooooh that sounds nice :)
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I love snake skin backed bows ;)
Merry Christmas
Same here. If I had enough I'd do all mine with snake skin backing. I'm gonna try Sturgeon on my Yew. :)
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Come on Jon.
I'm a fish lover, all the fish in my aquarium just rolled over:)
Cedrik, are you a vegetarian?
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Hey I'm totally with you.. Shame shame on a person that would skin a dead snakes just to put it on a bow!! SHAME!! >:(
A most horrid sin.. Not to mention the ethics of it... Shameful behavior >:(
Cipriano
Umm, maybe this isn't the right place... But do you have anymore, uhh. Never mind, I'll just call ya.
Scott
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Come on Jon.
I'm a fish lover, all the fish in my aquarium just rolled over:)
Cedrik, are you a vegetarian?
Any of them fish in your aquarium neon tetras? Always wanted a matched set of them to back a bow.
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It makes me sad to think of all those snakes dying out there with their skins never used for anything. What a waste. That's what I believe and nothing will change my mind. :'(
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Patrick you are a sick man.. You need sum serious help >:D But a darn fine craftsman :laugh:
Cipriano
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>:D
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I must admit, I do think the snake skin thing is a bit overdone and yes I'm guilty of skinning a few bows here and there. But that's usually done to cover my atrocious looking sinew jobs. I most generally save the skins from any snakes I kill, but I don't kill the snakes just for the skin. I kill snakes because they're snakes! The skins are just a bonus. Josh
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I've seen pictures of some Cougars that look good enough to eat:)
Me to >:D >:D >:D ;) you scallywag
And to answer your question he said he is a carnivore
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I must admit, I do think the snake skin thing is a bit overdone and yes I'm guilty of skinning a few bows here and there. But that's usually done to cover my atrocious looking sinew jobs. I most generally save the skins from any snakes I kill, but I don't kill the snakes just for the skin. I kill snakes because they're snakes! The skins are just a bonus. Josh
USMC talk!!!! Hey Josh I got that stave from Scott.
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I dont agree with killing an animal just for it's skin. I do agree that one can not allow poisonous snakes to go unchecked in areas where they may threaten a fellows kids and animals. I also agree that invasive species need to be culled so they dont totally screw up the natural ecosystem. Ranch raised and road kill , no problem. I would have no problem using any of these skins. What I disaree with is going out into the woods , deset etc and smacking some poor snake on the head just for it's skin.
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Nothing wrong with an opinion, but it's kinda like telling a coroner's joke at a funeral... You should pick ur audience. ;)
If it were true that this small community of bow builders could wipe out the vast population of snakes across the world by applying them to bow backs, I might seriously consider bow building full time! >:D In truth, I would argue that this group of people is some of the most conservation minded bunch of guys and gals you will ever run into (yourself included, Cedric.) I enjoy animals and their parts for a lot of different reasons, some parts I eat, some parts I look at.
Merry Christmas!
Scott
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I found it ironic this morning, after reading this thread, that I went outside and found a little rat snake that evidently didn't anticipate the cold weather that came this weekend.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8313619487_21c482d456_z.jpg)
I love snakes, always have. However, it bothers me not a bit to kill a snake and put it's skin on a bow. I would never kill a snake for no reason, but adorning/sealing/camo-ing a bow is a reason. For the same reason it bothers me not at all to kill a coyote for its hide, or trap a beaver. Using the skin/hide is a valid reason to take an animal in my book. I have often let rat and bull snakes go when I could have killed them because I'd rather have them eating rodents, but if one shows up as I'm finishing a bow it won't go well for it. And to be honest, normally the neighbors kill enough snakes because of their phobia's and I find enough road kill that I usually don't need to kill very many. Unfortunately, if my wife finds out I let one live around the house it doesn't go very well for me.
George
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Never lost any sleep for killing a snake for any reason. I use them on my bows for camo and beauty. For the meat...well the buzzards and coyotes gotta eat too. Just sharing my opinion of coarse.
Don
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Like my youngest son once said after I found a dying timber rattler on the road, "I like rattle snake meat." I've still got the skin and the bones too. dpg
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The thing that aways gets me in this kind of a dialogue is the "guy" has a car that burns gas or batteries that go to a landfill or shoes or clothes made from petroleum products. These are not renewable resources. Roads are made with oil and lots of it, these guys drive on these roads everyday. Trapping however works in harmony with nature if the laws are followed. If you want to be hippie green you need to wake up and look at what your signing onto. How much gas does it take to get a "green" pair of shoes to your house when you order them? I think it makes people feel good that they are green but many are just taken advantage of by advertising. I guess what I am saying is if it is renewable then it is green and that is a good thing in my book. A snake covered quiver is better for the environment than one made from plastic.
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John makes a good point. And I am a greenie!
What is more environmentally friendly...a pair of plastic crocs, made from irreplaceable and finite petrochemicals, brought out of the ground in a country where they steadfastly refuse environmental regulation because it cuts into oil revenue.
Or a pair of leather boots/shoes, made of cowhide grown on a cow that has been fed corn raised in huge monoculture agri-wasteland, fertilized with tons of artificial nutrient (again, petrochemical based), sprayed with pesticides (whoa, petrochemical based again) that contaminates water sources and have an unintended by-kill of good insects estimated 8-10x greater than the "bad" insects?
Needless to say, there is no perfect answer. As for me, I have found several really nice bullsnakes in the last few years. I immediately caught them up, looked 'em over for flaws in the hides...and then turned them loose because I cannot make myself kill one of these sweethearts. I'll pick up a roadkill though!
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John makes a good point. And I am a greenie!
What is more environmentally friendly...a pair of plastic crocs, made from irreplaceable and finite petrochemicals, brought out of the ground in a country where they steadfastly refuse environmental regulation because it cuts into oil revenue.
Or a pair of leather boots/shoes, made of cowhide grown on a cow that has been fed corn raised in huge monoculture agri-wasteland, fertilized with tons of artificial nutrient (again, petrochemical based), sprayed with pesticides (whoa, petrochemical based again) that contaminates water sources and have an unintended by-kill of good insects estimated 8-10x greater than the "bad" insects?
Needless to say, there is no perfect answer. As for me, I have found several really nice bullsnakes in the last few years. I immediately caught them up, looked 'em over for flaws in the hides...and then turned them loose because I cannot make myself kill one of these sweethearts. I'll pick up a roadkill though!
Well!!! much better said than I ever could! I dont back my bows with snakes. If I only killed snakes for skins where do you think the meat and bones would go....BACK TO NATURE and that benefits just another part of nature. OIL products don't they create a poor environment for nature. The whole idea of AP is a "back to nature" concept and being connected to nature. I agree with Scott that this community has a much greater respect for nature because of our connection to it than most people. We walk on rocks, touch trees/plants, and look at animals with a very different insight because we "are" informed.
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I guess my real point was, whatever you use in this life....use it up, mend it, use it some more, mend it again and again until there ain't nothing left to mend, then use it for patches on the next. THAT is the greenest thing you can do. Starve the landfill, save the planet.
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I for one could be better at that for sure jw!
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I do the green thing too. After drinking a few beers, I run down to the food plot and take a piss. Even pissed on a couple of snakes once. >:D
Just sharing my opinion guys. :)
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Hey guy's! first of all merry Christmas to everyone!
But the important thing here to me is that YOU HORRIBLY CHEAPEN THE MEANING OF THE WORD GENOCIDE by applying it to the killing of snakes.
Jim Davis
Why is that Jim. Genocide is the wiping out of a particualr gene pool. The destruction of a species is as legitamate a case of genocide as the destruction of a particular race or ethnicity. We are only one species in the circle . He obviously feels very strongly about the subject. You can disagree with him but dont accuse the guy of trying to cheapen anything.
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Of all creatures on earth, snakes are the among the LAST thing I would have trouble killing. :)
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I have a very unhealthy fear of snake that in its self for me is a reason to help one stop breathing. to each their own but this forum is probably not the place to go all save the snakes on..... Just Sayin.
Matt
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let's just put it this way i hate snakes, i let bullsnakes and non-dangerous snakes go unless it has a nice pattern and is really big then i put it on a bow mostly because it is to my thinking the perfect camo as well as rain protection for my sinew backed bows. i kill all rattle snake no matter if it's 6" or 5 1/2' i've been struck at by rattlers while fixing fence and i also have fang marks on my antelope decoy where a rattler struck while hunting antelope.
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Love skins on bows,Way to keep it civil, ;) ;D This place amazes me, :o anywhere else you might go this would have got ugly,Have a great New Year. ;D ;D Got to go, putting sealer over some Copper Head skins on an Osage bow right now. >:D ;)
Pappy
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Dang it pappy, I need two copperheads. Want to trade? ;D