Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Wooden Spring on December 20, 2012, 05:46:32 pm
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OK, as I look around on the forums (yes, I'm new to bowmaking) I see folks making bows out of trees that they've carefully split and followed the grain... Then I see bows that are made from store bought boards where the manufacturer may or may not have cut a decent board...
Is there a significant difference in the finished product assuming all else is the same? (considering bow design, wood choice, etc. are all equal) I'm not talking about aesthetics, I'm talking about "meat on the table-or not" differences...
I'm just curious since my bowmaking endeavors so far have been strictly limited to what I call "decent" boards that I pick up from my local hardwoods supplier. For instance - My ipe comes from decking boards 12' long... My hickory comes from 4/4 sawn planks of varrying lengths... Am I shooting myself in the foot here by not getting staves?
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Nope, no fletchings sticking out of your foot. ;)
It may be true that, for example, a hickory stave will have better integrity and could yield a higher safe draw weight than a hickory board, but you're talking about a difference that exists way above most people's draw weight. An 80# hickory board bow would be fine, but some would prefer to use a stave for draw weights much higher than that. At normal weights i would say it's purely aesthetics. Of course you do have to be more picky choosing boards than staves.
Some people make classy bows from boards and never use staves. Depends on what's available.
BTW, some would say a board is no different from a decrowned stave (excepting the kiln drying).
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some will say staves are better[blackhawk], but i build alot of board bows and they are great shooters, working a board may not have the same sense of accomplishment than working a gnarly twisted stave, but if you just want to build a bow to shoot boards are fine, Bub
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I don't see a lot of differences other than most times you end up with a stave that is full of knots. At least with boards they are dry and you can pick through the pile to find the best piece. I got one from Home Repo a while back, it broke. It broke in an obvious spot because the wood looked somewhat punky. I could not see that it was inside.
At any rate you can end up with a decrowned stave and a board piece that are identical in grain structure. ;)
I agree there is a relationship between the bowyer and a stave with the final product that is pride in workmanship. On the other hand you have the chemical laminated bows, one piece units selling for $1000.00.
My bow may not shoot as well nor outlast it, but at least it is a bow I built for very little cost..... ;D
There is an old saying it's not the Tool That Makes The Man, but it's knowing what to do with the tool that you have...... :laugh:
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I agree with bubby!!! Way too many people think board bows are insufficiant. When it comes to puttin meat in the freezer, which is all I'm worried about. Board bows work just fine!!!
Tattoo Dave
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Way to single me out Bubby....you'll get no comment from me...ill leave all you trim board lovers alone so you all can have your own "praise" party for boards..lmao :laugh:
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No doubt you can make an effective bow with a board that will put meat on your table. As evidenced by the countless board bows shown on this site. For me it is a matter of aesthetics. I really enjoy the process of working a stave and I just dont get that same excitement about a board. Plus I get to go out in the woods with friends and cut my own wood. That adds to the enjoyment. I like going in the woods a lot more than shopping in a big box store. Plus, staves are free.
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no comment from blackhawk? he must be sick
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Hey..is this the "praise" party for board bow lovers... :laugh:
I love boards..they can be deadly,last as long as a stave,shoot just as fast or faster than a stave can,and also can be aestically pleasing...;).....here's a great example ;)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,33782.0.html
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Its about what your after as an experinece more than what performs better, lasts longer or looks better. My passion lies strictly in stave bows.
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Its about what your after as an experinece more than what performs better, lasts longer or looks better. My passion lies strictly in stave bows.
I also prefer staves... Never built a bow from a board.
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Posts: 2392
Re: Where to Find Wood
« Reply #11 on: Today at 05:40:34 am »QuoteQuote from: lesken2011 on December 19, 2012, 09:15:13 pm
I didn't know you had something against boards, blackhawk. They never did anything to you, did they?
Simply said: A stave is better than a board ....when first learning always use the best wood available to you. A hickory,elm,or white oak sapling or small tree will tolerate a novices hands better than a board.
not singleing you out blackbird, you did ;D
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Its about what your after as an experinece more than what performs better, lasts longer or looks better. My passion lies strictly in stave bows.
some will say staves are better[blackhawk], but i build alot of board bows and they are great shooters, working a board may not have the same sense of accomplishment than working a gnarly twisted stave, but if you just want to build a bow to shoot boards are fine, Bub
i'm with ya, working a stave is much more satisfying, Bub
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Pickin' on bubs boards is liking picking on his family.......You best be careful!
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Its about what your after as an experinece more than what performs better, lasts longer or looks better. My passion lies strictly in stave bows.
I also prefer staves... Never built a bow from a board.
How do you know if ya never tried one pinenut ;)
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Posts: 2392
Re: Where to Find Wood
« Reply #11 on: Today at 05:40:34 am »QuoteQuote from: lesken2011 on December 19, 2012, 09:15:13 pm
I didn't know you had something against boards, blackhawk. They never did anything to you, did they?
Simply said: A stave is better than a board ....when first learning always use the best wood available to you. A hickory,elm,or white oak sapling or small tree will tolerate a novices hands better than a board.
not singleing you out blackbird, you did ;D
In that case its a true statement ;) ...all he had was red oak boards he could find when he lives in the eastern woodlands and is surrounded by a plethora of better wood available than a red oak board. ;)
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Pickin' on bubs boards is liking picking on his family.......You best be careful!
amen brother, i have a hackberry, an ocean spray and two, count'em TWO osage staves, actually 1 stave and two billets that i'm trying to do myself proud on,but i'm not buried in great wood so i take my time and enjoy them,
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i hear ya blackhawk, if i lived there i'd have staves coming out my ears, Bub
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I've seen some very nice board bows posted. I don't have anything against them. I even tried a piece of red oak 1x2 once. I got it almost all the way tillered out and just lost interest in it. I threw it in the corner for a couple years and ended up cutting it up to make spacers. It just didn't have any soul. It was straight, square, and smooth. I love working a stave. Following the grain, the humps, bumps, and knots lets me get to know the wood. By the time I'm done with a bow I know every inch of it like the back of my hand. That is why I prefer staves over boards.
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Although they overlap, the skill set is a bit different for each. If you want the best chance at success early on, staves are the better option IMO.
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I got both.....cuttin a tree and splittin out some 1/4's etc. is a whole bunch easier than knockin down the tree, gettin it to the saw mill with a pee-vee, cuttin out the quartersawn boards (rollin that damned tree around at least 8 times), then seal the ends and rick it all up for at least a year, then mill it flat to identify the grain, then resaw to get perfectly straight grain, etc etc. Yep, them board bows is a piece of cake and no challenge at all >:D
rich
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Its kind of like trying to compare oranges to apples. A stave will give headaches, challenges, unforseen and unimagineable problems, inconsistant material, but if you can pull it off... ;D .
"Its all about the experience", thats a great way to separate the two.
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It's all good. Been making boards into bows since '94. Been making stave bows since '89.
There's some sentimental value attached to some of the boards I've made into bows and some of the same for my log bows. Let's just leave it at that.
Merry Christmas!
Jawge
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I, for one, started with boards due to availability and budget. There is a lot to learn for beginners about different woods, designs, and tillering without adding the complexity of knots and curves. I think the early successes I had encouraged me enough to keep learning. I might have had success starting with a stave, but I doubt it, since I had no one to mentor me in person. While I fully intend to broaden my horizons and work some staves, I doubt I will ever stop working with boards.
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I've made exactly 1 board bow, of hard maple, and did a terrible job. It took a lot of set. Since then it's been all stave bows. I now have ipe, osage and birch board laminates in various stages of getting started so I'm working up the energy to try the boards again. I hope to do a little better this time.
George
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I like both and both have there challenges. I don't see a difference in level of skill needed to make one or the other its just a different type of work.
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i would say that board bows are easier to see the flaws in the tiller, where as, a bow with a section that is deflexed or something would be harder to tell for sure, its basically a bit more deceptive.
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Its about what your after as an experinece more than what performs better, lasts longer or looks better. My passion lies strictly in stave bows.
I also prefer staves... Never built a bow from a board.
How do you know if ya never tried one pinenut ;)
Very true. I have some lemonwood that's sort of in board form.
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I enjoy making both and lately have been itching to try a few board bows. What keeps me from making board bows more often is having to go out and buy them when I have good staves at home. But now that I have a steady income that may change.
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I prefer staves over boards but some of my best, fastest bows have been made from boards...hickory backed osage and ipe. Both make great backed board bows.
I prefer staves because I like the idea of working the stave to one growth ring on the back and working the bow out of that piece of wood. No glue, no clamps just take off everything that doesn't look like a bow.
Boards are ideal for the first time builder. They are relatively cheap and available and with thoughtful reduction you can make a nice bow. If you fail you haven't lost much...maybe a little pride but I'm sure we all have plenty of that to sacrifice a little bit. ;)
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Never build a board bow,not because their is anything wrong with them,just never had the need. I have seen some really beautiful board bows and may give it a try one day. :-\ Go with what you have and yes boards will make a meat maker for sure. :) :) Merry Christmas.
Pappy
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Well by golly someone send pappy a board..he don't know what he's missing :laugh:
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;D ;D ;D O I got a board. ;) ;D I usually build more bow shed space with mine. ;) ;D :D
Pappy
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Well then...sounds like you know how to use a board for its real intended purpose :laugh:
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when I lived in the northwest finding logs was a "clearmyheadwoodscouting" therapy. Like really needed a reason to go to Gods country. Gifford Pinchot what a happy place, oh wait it is it is a real place. Haaaaaa
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I always thought that a lumber yard challenge would be cool. Hunting equipment made completely from stuff at the lumber yard, bow, arrows, broadheads, etc., complete with pics of a successful hunt (whitetail preferable). It would be the opposite of using the woods for your resources. Almost an urban survival thing. I get what I want and need from the woods, but it's fun to change it up a little. Hell, even Ishi used some modern stuff just because it was available and worked for what he needed. So anybody out there, keep this in mind: A "Home Depot Hunt". I know it's silly but it would be fun.
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I, for one, started with boards due to availability and budget. There is a lot to learn for beginners about different woods, designs, and tillering without adding the complexity of knots and curves. I think the early successes I had encouraged me enough to keep learning. I might have had success starting with a stave, but I doubt it, since I had no one to mentor me in person. While I fully intend to broaden my horizons and work some staves, I doubt I will ever stop working with boards.
See, and that's exactly my case - I'm a beginner... ULTRA novice if you will - I feel more like I'm in uncharted waters than I was the first day that I decided that I liked girls... I'VE GOT NO CLUE WHAT I'M DOING! I figure that if I can make all of the mistakes that I can (I'm on my 5th ELB now - all board bows) then when I'm ready, I can take what I've learned to a great stave. Until then its just trial by fire...
And another thing... You know all those people who post pictures of their "first bows" and it's a beautiful, functional work of art? Well, great for them, but I'm sure they're not learning a dern thing. I've learned more about what can go WRONG with a bow build that I could write a book. Seriously, can you imagine how horrible it would be if EVERYTHING we ever did in life we got right on the first try? Seriously, if that were the case, then I would have married my high school sweetheart.... Eeeeeeeeeewwww.... OK, I'm going to need to see a pig getting slaughtered to get THAT image out of my head...
OK, back to the wood shavings...
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I am still a beginner. I have 2 working bows, one I hunt with. Just finishing a 3rd--all with boards, never a stave...yet. I've read exenstively about reading grain on suitable boards for bows, but experience is the true teacher. I thought I had a great piece of White Oak, then, when I pushed her to over 50#, she exploded. I studied the break and finally made the connection about bad grain and grain "running off the edges". The worst part, is that the bad grain was always there and I was naive evough to think other aspects of the board would save it. Nope--when it comes to boards, grain is king.
TBB2, I think, has the board bow section and it's extraodinarily helpful, so I'd study that section. The bent stick advice about boards is helpful as well. And the single best place for advice is right here in this forum.
Good luck!
-Bri
One good thing though--all my 9 mistakes so far cost me less than $70...try that with staves! (I can't get my own--large city livin here).
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I am still a beginner. I have 2 working bows, one I hunt with. Just finishing a 3rd--all with boards, never a stave...yet. I've read exenstively about reading grain on suitable boards for bows, but experience is the true teacher. I thought I had a great piece of White Oak, then, when I pushed her to over 50#, she exploded. I studied the break and finally made the connection about bad grain and grain "running off the edges". The worst part, is that the bad grain was always there and I was naive evough to think other aspects of the board would save it. Nope--when it comes to boards, grain is king.
TBB2, I think, has the board bow section and it's extraodinarily helpful, so I'd study that section. The bent stick advice about boards is helpful as well. And the single best place for advice is right here in this forum.
Good luck!
-Bri
One good thing though--all my 9 mistakes so far cost me less than $70...try that with staves! (I can't get my own--large city livin here).
I did the same thing with a nice rift sawn White Oak board but I believe mine was too dry. It was actually a little crumbly at the break.
Grady
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it's all in the design boards or staves one is no better than the other at normal draw waights 80# or so and less above 80# the staves will come out on top
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The only things I didn't see mentioned was the fact that you can never be sure how wood was treated after felling (or if it was a less than desirable specimen before felling) with a board .So there is always that element of risk. With a stave you cut, you know everything about it. I just broke a board bow (oak) .It was a tried and tested design. slightly overbuilt for durability. But I rushed it and should have taken more off the back(my lumber is bought rough) Faint trace of stickerstain where the crack developed. On the other hand, a board bow will be easier for a newcomer to judge the tiller on,as it starts out perfectly straight and is easy to see any problems with tiller. It is also easier to layout on a board. Both will work just fine. Not too long ago (just before the fibreglass revolution), most of the bows made commercially in North America were made by small companies using lemon wood(Degame) That was the thing to do at the time.