Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Dictionary on December 07, 2012, 02:30:28 pm
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Okay, so i just threw this old blade under the coals of a fire in the fireplace. I didnt know what to expect or really if it would have any effect. I couldnt cut it with a hacksaw so i wanted to see if the metal would soften after being heated and left overnight. Well i went to work hammering a cold chisel into it and bending it with some vice grips until i got a couple of triangles out of it.
I noticed the metal seemed very flexible after being heated. I can bend it much more easily now. Or so it seems. I don't know if the fire really did anything or not but the metal does seem a bit weaker.
A few questions:
Do you think a fireplace has enough heat to soften metal? And if so how should i go about rehardening these points?
The cold chisel i used really wasn't sharp but i still didnt have trouble denting and scoring the metal. A cold chisel doesnt need to be sharp to score metal then?
Tell me what you think......im going to try and file these down a good bit and then just file in two slots on the sides to haft it to an arrow.
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I would try 2:1 to 3:1 dimensions next time, meaning if its 1 inch wide its 2-3 inchs long. No a cold chisel isnt suppose to be sharp. If you heated up the metal until it was red hot and let it cool then the fireplace was enough to soften the metal. To reharden/anneal the points heat it up redhot again and quench in oil. To test hardness try to put an edge on them. Try to balance hardness with ease of sharpening and keeping an edge
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Managed to cut them down some and put a tang on them. I'll post some pics of how i did that shortly.
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I wanted to see if these could be made with all hand tools as i dont have power tools and well it wasnt too difficult. It really didnt take much time. Just a few whacks with the chisel and hammer to score metal then bending it.......
Thanks for the response Cherokee.
I really don't know if the metal was red hot or not when i got it out. But you are saying it must be red hot if i am to try and harden it though right?
I am wondering how the natives made metal heads. I assume by heating them in the coals as well to soften the metal to be worked with hamemrs and chisels when they had access to metal tools? idk.
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I am wondering how the natives made metal heads. I assume by heating them in the coals as well to soften the metal to be worked with hamemrs and chisels when they had access to metal tools? idk.
I'm pretty sure that they primarily traded for them, or made them from soft metals like low grade iron or copper.
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Low grade metals can be used for hunting then? I simply ask because as i said i have no power tools and i havent found much info on making them without bench grinders,dremels, or whatever else so im trying to see what can be done......in the simplest fashion.
Does anyone else here use a cold chisel without an anvil? I just pounded these on a rock.......because of course, i have no anvil.
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Once you heat and quench your heads you are going to need to temper them or they will likely be too hard to sharpen very well. after you quench them, clean all the oil ( you can quench with vegetable oil ) off them and put them in an oven at 400 F for 1- 1 1/2 hour then let then sit at room temp to cool.
The Native American tribes were pretty much a stone age culture before contact with Europeans. There were some examples of copper used as tools and weapons by the Aztecs but that was about it. For the most part they traded for steel arrow heads, knives and hatchets. They did make arrow heads from iron , copper and brass they traded for or captured. They would have worked them m much as you are with hammer, chisles and files.
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Once you heat and quench your heads you are going to need to temper them or they will likely be too hard to sharpen very well. after you quench them, clean all the oil ( you can quench with vegetable oil ) off them and put them in an oven at 400 F for 1- 1 1/2 hour then let then sit at room temp to cool.
The Native American tribes were pretty much a stone age culture before contact with Europeans. There were some examples of copper used as tools and weapons by the Aztecs but that was about it. For the most part they traded for steel arrow heads, knives and hatchets. They did make arrow heads from iron , copper and brass they traded for or captured. They would have worked them m much as you are with hammer, chisles and files.
Thanks for the response. Im going to try a head or two "as is". And try reheating and quenching the others.
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68 You forgot that I said to temper them twice in the oven.
Theres a few things you'll find out you can't do. SHORT QUICK angle heads don't pentrate to well. I use the 3 to 1 ratio. 3 Times longer that wide. I like 3 x1 or 3x 3/4.
Second your going to find out quickly you can't make the backs square or barbed. There really hard to pull back out of a target. But most of all you'll pull them off the shaft almost everytime or they'll lossen up after a shot or two. There ok if your not going to practice with them.
Your tangs need to be longer. I make mine 1/2 to 5/8's and make them 3/8's wide. Wider than the staft. And take a hacksaw and cut 16 th inch cuts down each side in them. When you wrap then the steels (shank)wider than the shaft and your wraping go in the cuts. This helps tighten the heads down and insures they don't pull of of the arrow.
If you hav'nt heated them any you do'nt have to retemper them. The tempers already in the steel. Nothing wrong with cutting them out the way you are doing it.
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Too true crookedarrow. You should round the shoulders off to more of a willow leaf shape or at least angle them forward as opposed to flat backed or barbed.
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So i do or i do not have to reheat them and quench them in oil??
As i said, i heated them at first in the fireplace and left them to cool for an hour or so before shaping them with a cold chisel. Can i use the metal as is or is it necessary to reheat them?
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If you are interested in ironworking by Plains tribes, I recommend a book by a guy I know, James A. Hanson of the Museum of the Fur Trade. The title is "Metal Weapons, Tools, and Ornaments of the Teton Dakota Indians " He has handled thousands of artifacts from pre-contact to contemporary times.
He spoke at a historical conference a few years ago and he indicated he had seen several hundred axe heads from the fur trade era and every last one of 'em had chisel marks on the flat sides and poll. An axe could be sunk in a downed tree trunk or stump and used as a portable anvil! In lists of trade goods from various trading posts and traveling traders, hammers, cold chisels and files were common items. I doubt they were for dentistry.
Items commonly traded or scavanged for turning out knives and arrowheads include barrel hoops, wagon wheel iron, buckets, pails, cook pots, spoons, and so on. They may not have done much in the way of classic blacksmithing with forges and welding, but they were absolute whizzes at stock reduction and stock removal.
And yes, there were roughed out trade point arrowheads traded in the fur trade times as well.
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Hey Dictionary
When you heated the metal and let it cool slowly you softened the steel. At this point they probably will not hold an edge well. Now you have to heat and quench to harden the steel again. However, once you do the quench phase the steel will be too hard and brittle, now you have to temper them. Tempering is really just a controled softening. You are softening them just enough to take the brittelness out and make them easy to sharpen but hard enough to hold an edge.
You can use pretty much any oil to quench with. Some use veggie oil, olive oil or even used motor oil. Sand the blade shiny and get all the oil off or it will smoke like crazy in the oven.
I would'nt finish the sharpening of the blades until You finish the tempering. Heating the points can burn the carbon out of the edge if it's sharpened too thin at that point. Leave a little meat on the bone and finish after the tempering.
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A site with a lot of info on blade smithing is
paleoplanet.net
Good job so far, keep at it.
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Thanks for all the info guys. Much appreciated. Thanks for sharing that Halverson.So after the quenching in oil, i temper by putting it in the kitchen oven for an hr and a half.
Just one last questions.
I know that the metal has been heated up enough for quenching in oil if it is bright red right?
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One point I forgot to mention. When you quench them drop a peice of hot metal in to heat the oil up first. When you quench you blade submerge it either point first or edge first. DO NOT lay it in the oil flat, this will cause the blade to warp. Do not move the peice from side ti side while it cools or it can warp as well. Once the hissing and sizzling stops check the blade, if there is some minor warping you can hammer it flat while it is still warm.
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For arrow heads bright red should be fine.
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I know exactly how you feel. Ive been Doing most of my building (bows, arrows, knives,) all without power tools. I forge the knives and have been working on forging arrow heads which is more delicate process than I had imagined. I built my first forge literally out of a tin washtub, 3 3/4 gallon, a black Iron pipe for the teier and a mixture of hard wood ash, sand and yep cat litter. (the cheapest kind that is 100% natural earthen clay) It works fine and I use hardwood charcoal for the fuel. For air you can attatch a hairdryer to an extension to the tier or an old champion blower (theyre pricey) or make a bellow. I had a lot of fun building mine and it works beautifully. Theres a picture of it here...http://primaltorch.blogspot.com
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JW where can I get a copy of your friends book.
SOUND GREAT , I collect any books like that I can get.
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Thanks for all the info guys. Much appreciated. Thanks for sharing that Halverson.So after the quenching in oil, i temper by putting it in the kitchen oven for an hr and a half.
Just one last questions.
I know that the metal has been heated up enough for quenching in oil if it is bright red right?
the best way to know if the metal is hot enough is to check it with a magnet. The idea is to bring the steel to non magnetic. Color always depends on steel, I have to bring O-1 to an orange color and quench to harden it. Also and i dont know if this matters for arrowheads but the steel wont matter how hot you heat it up and quech it if there isnt enough carbon in the steel it wont hold an edge. Being a Mechette tho I cant imagine it wouldnt have carbon in it. Best would be high carbon steel.
Hope this helps!