Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: RyanY on December 01, 2012, 07:13:41 pm
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After the other thread I was surprised to hear so many people built their bows for hunting! ;) Some of you might remember the ambush bow challenge a while back and I think we should start it again. Here's the list of requirements written by Dean Torges from his website.
1. It must be capable of staying braced for hours on end, day after hard hunting day, and not lose perceptible cast. The arrow you shoot in the early morning should strike the same mark in the late afternoon at a hunting distance.
2. It must be quiet without the use of string silencers. Since most opportunities are close quarter at animals capable of eye-blink maneuvers, it shouldn't make more noise than a walnut hitting soft ground.
3. It must be easily braced. Even if you're sitting or lying on the ground, you should be able to brace it effortlessly and positively with one throw, without the string slipping from the nock or the bow jumping from your hand.
4. It must balance in the hand so it is quick to point of aim. Also, it must be short and maneuverable so you can bend into an awkward position and shoot from brushed-in tree stands or restrictive ground blinds without bouncing the bottom limb off platform cables, branches or the ground, or waving the top limb about like a semaphore flag.
5. It must be forgiving. If you need to turn to one side on a tree stand platform and tuck the lower limb between your legs for clearance, for example, or cant the bow in some unusual position, the bow must not want to torque or twitch from such an awkward posture or the likelihood of a tortured release. In other words, the handle must provide for a repeatable grip and the limbs must be of a stable design.
6. Even though it is short, no more than 58" nock to nock, it must be smooth to a 28" draw, so that no stacking hinders reaching full draw from any kind of awkward situation—cold, stiffness, or an unbalanced posture.
7. It must pull at least 60 lbs at 28".
8. It must shoot a heavy arrow, in excess of ten grains per pound of draw weight, and at 15 yards strike pretty much where a considerably lighter arrow does.
9. It must be of dependable materials and of a reliable construction, as simple as its pursuit allows.
10. It must be pleasurable to shoot. No kick, no shock to the nervous system, nothing unorthodox to the shooting style.
I think this is a great way to show the versatility of woods if designed properly. I'll point out that simson's bow is a great example of an ambush bow. So if you guys are interested I think we could make this contest format or just for show and tell. What do you think? My bow will of course be made of poplar. :laugh:
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The bow that meets all those criteria will be wonderful indeed. The only sticking point is the draw weight of 60 lbs. Why so heavy? Are we hunting dangerous game with this?
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I agree that the 60lbs is heavy but we can change any of these rules to something we can all agree on.
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you should be able to brace it effortlessly and positively with one throw, without the string slipping from the nock or the bow jumping from your hand.
Please help me in my ignorance. What does this mean, "one throw."?
Thank you,
John
Boise
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I could easily be interested but I've got a hitch. 28 inches of draw is not real practical for myself. If you are crouching or lying down why would you need that much draw anyway?
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lying down?
haha
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I loved that challenge and did build a bow for it but never sent it in. Though I think it would have done well, I fell in love with the bow and could not stand the thought of someone pulling it to 28" when My draw is only 25" For me the rules would be better set at a specific weight no mater what draw length, or at least make it reasonable to not overstress a bow. My ambush bow has hunted many years since and still shoots excellent after thousands of shots and being strung for all day hunts.
It really was a good contest and helped spur criteria and real hunting scenario thinking when it comes to building.
I vote for 50 lbs at 26" and no longer then 58"
Lying down is quiet easy if you practice a little
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John, I think it just means one try so basically it should be easy to string.
Keenan, I think I saw the bow you made while researching the contest. I love how you never sacrifice beauty for workability.
The draw length requirement is a bit odd as we all have differing draw lengths. I think the point is that the bow should be able to handle the stress of being so short with that draw. Perhaps a ratio of length to draw length could be the standard although a stiff handle would put shorter bows at a disadvantage. Maybe the difference in draw length from 28" should be deducted from the length of the bow. Longer draw's will not have correspondingly longer bow lengths since the shortness is necessary for hunting use.
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Still have that bow so if you want to call it 26" draw then mine is already done >:D And yes it was strung while up in the tree
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_1015.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_1016.jpg)
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This should be fun.
Thanks for posting ryoon.
In my opinion some of the criteria are as some mentioned not appropriate. As far as weight and drawlength I don't think the eightshould matter. Maybe we can leave the drawlegnth at 28 inches because this will test out adeptness at making a shbort bow with a longer draw length. As far as weight 40 plus would be good. The reason for forty is because 40lbs and a sharp broadhead will pretty much kill whatever ur hunting in NA. Also one of the rules sas most shots are at close range so 40lbs is ok at these close ranges. Other than that If I'm not to busy ill make oneb to show n tell here :) if others vote to have the bows sent in id do that too.
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Keenan, I don't remember but is your bow juniper or yew? Why not make a new one from a "lesser" wood? ;D
Legionnaire, I agree that 40lbs would be a good minimum but I think my suggestion above is a good way to account for different draw lengths.
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Ryoon, that one was yew.
Legion, The only problem for is for someone with a shorter draw a 40# bow at 28" means it's only about 31 at say 25" draw. Guess I could find one of the ladies in the church archery group to give it to afterward. ;D
The other thoughts are if we are just building to aquire knowledge and test limits, then maybe say 50 lbs at 28" would be a better test. 40 lbs isn't going to really test the being strung for long periods very much.
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How about a NEW challenge - not the Ambush bow, not the recently suggested green wood bow, not the MOJam hatchet bow, not 200 fps w/ 10 grn/# .... but something entirely new? Lets brain storm and collectively come up with a fresh challenge. As the intro to Star Trek used to say, "Boldly going where no man has gone before."
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I'd be up for the challenge.
I think at least 50@28 sounds reasonable. 58" nock to nock.
In my home state 50lbs is minimum for elk and sheep.
28" is considered the 'norm' for draw lengths.
If you like to shoot 26", tiller it to 28" but make sure it is at least 45lbs at your draw.
That way I can shoot it too.
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The One Tool Bow!!!!!!!!!!! I mean, in a survival situation ( you know we all think about those ) we arent gonna be back packing a bandsaw or a large assortment of tools. We are all good with one tool and have our favorite that we know we would never leave behind, and that would probably be the one tool we would grab in a hurry. So, if the idea of a different contest is on the table, then I would suggest this one. Or we can put the OTB as an idea for a later contest and go forward with this one.
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50@28 sounds good to me... I couldn't tell ya if a bow stacked ..... heavier than that they all stack according to my shoulder ;(
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Keenan, I think it's important to make these bows ones we can personally enjoy so we should try and adjust the rules to account for differing weights and preferences. Even though 40lbs isn't going to challenge design as much it's still adequate hunting weight.
Shaun, I think there might still be enough interest in this one to go through with it but if you have an idea for something else you should start it up. :)
Sleek, that's a good idea for testing out abilities. I'm a little more interested in ones that challenge bow design a but more.
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My short R/D bend thru the handle Molly's fit ALL those descriptions to a T. They're the smoothest and most forgiving short bow designs I've shot n made,and pack a punch for being short bows. They were made and designed to be ambush bows cus I'm a ground hunter.
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MOJam hatchet bow was a "one tool" contest, not even a pencil allowed. Rules were; hatchet, B-50 and beeswax. You were allowed to sharpen the hatchet as needed.
I was thinking of something like; most artistic or most bizarre or most snaky or most whatever but still able to shoot a 10 grn / # arrow 150 fps minimum. Or maybe bow made in one day or one hour. Or bow made from wood found within 100 feet of your house, or bow made from the weirdest found object or material.
None of these is quite what I'm looking for, but if we cast around some ideas, the good ones will float to the top.
Got nothing against the ambush bow challenge except that its been done and several of us did it back then.
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how about shortest to reach 28in draw?
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how about lightest mass bow pulling at least 50lbs....actually differences in scale calibration might make that difficult. Just throwing another one out there.
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i would like to have my go at this one. If you get this contest going, i'll submit Matilda, as she meets all the criteria.
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While I am glad to see the gears turning I'd like this thread to focus on the ambush bow concept. If people aren't interested that's ok. But if you are lets get these rules down and make some bows. I know many of you have bows that would qualify already but I'd like to see us work outside of our comfortzones. See if you can make a bow that will surprise you! Not just the cookie cutter osage. ;)
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i have a plan for one that is definitely out of my comfort zone, short and curvy vs. my usual long and straight ::)
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Combine a challenge like, one tool-ambush bow?
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A 58" bow drawing 60# at 28" seems a bit of a tall order to me if you want durability too, which you surely do in an ambush bow, and to meet the other criteria it would prob' need a load of deflex or string follow.
Just the the opinion of a cat from the UK where we can't hunt, so don't shoot me.
I'd suggest throw out the draw weight and put in, 'must be made in a day', or am I confusing ambush and survival?
Del
(click... grumpy mode OFF)
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can we enter more than one bow?
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My thoughts:
max 58",
a static recurve for speed,
a deflex just after the handle so the tips are laying only 1" befor the handle - this allows heavy early drawweight and to keep the bow strung for the whole day,
and I prefer heavier drawweights - min 65#
wood: no softwood like yew or others, best choice Imo is osage
simson
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Del, that's exactly why it's a challenge. I think it's ambush in the sense of a sneak attack in the brush. Small and maneuverable.
Twilight, sure. I think to get more participation it might just be a show and tell sort of thing. Making a contest where we have to send in bows can result in lots of testing disagreements and having to ship bows may be discouraging to some.
simson, that design is expected and definitely works well but where's the challenge? ;)
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The term ambush is a bit inappropriate. Isn't pretty much every hunting bow an ambush weapon? Whether you lie in wait or spot and stalk, the point where you shoot from amounts to the same thing.
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;Simson, I agree with your thoughts except for one. Yew will do better! ;D >:D Harder wood doesn't always mean stronger. ;)
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My thoughts:
max 58",
a static recurve for speed,
a deflex just after the handle so the tips are laying only 1" befor the handle - this allows heavy early drawweight and to keep the bow strung for the whole day,
and I prefer heavier drawweights - min 65#
wood: no softwood like yew or others, best choice Imo is osage
simson
You mean something like this simson >:D....this osage stave was 56"ttt before shaping and is rawhide backed...its just waiting for me to finish tiller it out..intended specs are at least 60@28"
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2012-12-02_11-01-25_628.jpg)
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;Simson, I agree with your thoughts except for one. Yew will do better! ;D >:D Harder wood doesn't always mean stronger. ;)
Not everyone can carry a bow with "class" thru the woods like you Keenan ;) :laugh:
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since i cant do anything normal, i think im going to have to try making a warbow weight ambush bow that sticks to all of the requirements and draws 31in >:D >:D >:D >:D
(i have a feeling this will either be a very good or absolutely terrible idea)
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fishfinder401, I'm guessing that means a minimum of 80#? :laugh:
Well since this discussing is wandering back and forth I'm going to put my foot down and decide on the rules. The bow should meet the requirements specified by Dean's initial writing.
Changes:
1. The bow should be at least 40# at your draw length but if so then the bow should be reduced two inches for every 5# of draw weight. This means a 40# bow will be 54" and a 45# bow will be 56". No minimum length but a max length of 58". Minimum draw weight of 40# but no max draw weight.
2. The difference in draw length below 28" should be subtracted from the bow length. If the bow is meant to be 50#@26" then it should be 56" long max.
The two rules above combine. For example, a 40#@26" bow should be 52" long.
I think these are fair rules that will challenge the builder no matter what their desired draw weight and length.
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80 ::) im thinking more like 130 >:D
i want to be able to ambush a armored knight lol
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Are we talking self bows only or can it be backed?
Kip
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Are we talking self bows only or can it be backed?
Kip
good point
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KShip85, I think both are fine but they should be compared relative to the same style.