Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sharpend60 on October 25, 2012, 03:00:19 pm
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I'm working on a little brush bow at the moment.
It made from VineMaple reaction wood. A very stressed design.
So far it has takin about 1/2 set of set, which is AOK.
After leaving it strung for 2 or more hours it has about 1" of string follow. But bounces right back after a few hours.
My question to you is...
This being a young bow, is that string follow eventually gonna turn into set?
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Not if you did your job right.
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Ive drawn it within an inch of full draw easily more than 100 times.
Ive never had a bow that has such pronounced string follow before.
I'll post some pics when I get it all prettied up.
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Osage is just different from stick to stick. Some will snap right back home after unbracing and some takes an hour to get back there. As long as it gets back your doing good. The problem is when your bow doesnt go back to its original shape, thats when set continues to happen. A few things cause it. Too short, too wet, using wood that isnt respectable bow wood and a poor tiller.
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I don't think there is a wood bow around that doesn't develop at least some degree of set over it's lifetime (and I mean in addition to what it took during the tillering process). But one inch of string follow after a few hours is nothing to worry about. Heck even an inch of set is nothing to worry about. But if that's not up to your standards, just make the next one a little wider. :D
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There was a term I heard people say about certain woods used for bows when I started making bows and it was oh that's a quick wood.I always thought it was that it returned quickly back to it's original form after shooting.I mean on it's own self backed.I hav'nt worked too many different types of wood yet besides osage,hickory,coffee tree,and elm[working on cedar now though but with sinew] but of all of mine I did osage is the quickest of them all.I know that's an opinionated comment but there it is.
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I experienced the same with a highly reflexed stave. We were talking about this on here recently but cant find the thread.
I have an elm bow that eventually started to chrystal which did the same thing. The bow would have about 2 inches of reflex and after being strung for a while then unstrung it would should almost an inch of follow.
My guess is that the tension strong wood back is pulling out the string follow after time. Unfortunately the brace tension and subsequent set after stringing made the bow shoot like a dog. I think its simply a crushed belly but the back is making things look better than they are.
Either way if it shoots well it shoots well.
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That's why you'll see people post how much set the bow has after unstringing and another figure for after it has " rested " for an hour or so.High moisture will make the bow sluggish and take longer to "return" after unstringing well. If you take a fresh cut sapling you can bend it all over the place and it will want to keep the bend.Let it dry for a couple of weeks and you'll find it doesn't want to bend as easily but tries to return to straight a lot quicker.
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I understand the difference between the two terms, I was just wondering if one has a direct relationship to the other.
If string follow is an indicator of set in the future. Ive built many bows, vine maple included, that have shown ~1" of set but have little string follow.
The bow is a short draw recurve.
Ive never shot with such a short draw before. So I cannot speak to the performance...
The stave is 52" total length but only 42" working limb.
It started with 5" of reflex, I deflexed it several inches. It shows deflex unstrung, not set. I then seriously recurved last 6" of each limb. It also has a re claimed rawhide back from a failed project last spring. It gets very cold and dry here and wood get brittle...
This is a purpose built bow. I thumped a cotton tail with a blunt the other day. It did a back flip, then ran off. The brush was too heavy for me to pursue. Due to the heavy brush I could only draw my long bow 20" or so, reducing my power.
The solution is this bow. I already deflexed it a great deal, I would hate for it to take a buncha set too.
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I've seen a VM bow that was 40" long (working handle) pull a 25" draw and take zero set. But did take an hour or so to return to its reflexed state.
As you know sharp, VM is extremely tension strong. But it's a little weaker in Compression. And it sounds like the working parts are under a lot of stress.
VM takes heat tempering very nicely. I'm not sure how you want to go about that down there in the desert :) but give her some heat and I promise she'll perform.
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I was gonna heat her this afternoon. It's drawing 24" right now. It does have a working handle. Could work more though.
I know that maple doesnt like to be too dry, thus the rawhide back.
Not really the best wood for this environment but I would hate to cut down my longer hickory staves. For this project at least.
Gimme a shout if anyone wants to unload some hickory. Id like to do gull wing with the same purpose in mind...
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IMHO , I would think that if it is returning to a reasonable amount of set on it's own ,then the wood isn't permanently "damaged" or set regardless of how long it takes. Every piece of wood will be different , based on it's ratio of tension to compression.Like Bryce said , heat treating helps if you are in a high humidity area and the wood can take the extra strain. But if you are in the desert, my guess is that VM is just one of those woods that is slower to respond. The heat treating should make it quicker to return by changing the ratio.
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Be careful not to bugger up your bond with the backing while heat treating. Ive been checking with a digital thermometer while heat treating and found that to get hickory to "toast lightly" I had to get it up to around 280 deg. On 1/2" -5/8" thick , the heat transfered through to the back at around180 deg. or more. I was very conservative with the heating ,did it quick and just enough to turn colour. Good luck and let us know how it turns out . I'd like to see the pics.
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Oh crap! I forgot it was backed! Lol yeah be careful
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"String follow" and "set" are two terms for the same thing. As far as performance is concerned, its the just-unstrung profile that is important.
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I if i have to reapply the back, no biggie.
I think it's gonna be okay though, it is 40 deg and sunny out right now.
I work outside btw.
I just did one limb, I could put my finger on the back but in no way could touch the belly...
I'm not too concerned about performance but I do like to build the best bow I can.
Tom,
The way I understood string follow vs. set was set is permanent damage while follow was only temporary.
Thats why I was wondering if follow is a precursor to set.
The consensus seems to be it is not.
Thanks guys.
I'll post up some pics when it's done, hopefully with Mr.Hoppy in hand. Its getting into the 20s at night, plenty cold for safe bunny eating.
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Can't wait to see it!!!
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sharpened60...Toms' right.Sounds like you have a nice bow there.If you need hickory I've got it.I've been tellin JW for some time too since he says it's so dry in the Black Hills there.I've got the same red cedar he's got too Bryce.Might need to rough the hickory out and leave it in the house a month though.What desert you live in or by?
That hickory can take the heat.It was made for it I think.I run it up to 400 F. at times.Wood plastcizes at 350 F.they say.Gotta keep it 4 inches away though all the time.
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I'm in north central New Mexico. 7000 ft high.
Moved here last year from a rainforest!
Ive broke a ton of bows trying to adapt to the extreme conditions.
I'll be in touch regarding hickory...
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String follow and set are two totally different birds and do not mean the same thing, not even close.
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PD is right but the poor guy thinks like I do. LOL. Not so good. String follow and set are 2 different concepts which is not to say that a bow can't have both(See TBB#4 Glossary P 233). String follow refers to the situation when the bow looks like it is strung when it is not. It literally follows the string. It bends towards the archer when unstrung. A bow takes set when after tillering is done the limbs do not return to their original condition. The may or may not follow the string. Let's say you start with a stave that has 3 inches of reflex. When you are done tillering and breaking in the bow you have lost 2 inches of reflex. The bow retains 1 inch of reflex. How can it follow the string? It doesn't but it has 2 inches of set. If you start with a straight stave and the bow follows the string by 2 inches then we can also say it has 2 inches of set. 2 or so inches of set is quite acceptable...at least for me. For both, the culprit is belly wood compression.
:) Jawge
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So how does deflex fit in?
Could you also say, my bow follows the string (deflexed) in the middle then is reflexed in the tips?
And does the phenomena of the bow appearing to have taken set, then bouncing back have a name?
I always thought this was string follow.
Related to set but a much happier experience, thus prompting my question.
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String follow and set are two religious terms that nobody agrees on the definition for. They really are just opinions of arbitrary positions a bow may hold when unstrung.
People love to say set happens and that every bow simply has to have even a minute amount of set in its belly cells. That is true if the bow is even remotely pushed to any sort of reasonable bend.
Based on that the two terms are merely degrees of the same thing with the plane of the handle forming the line where one becomes the other. Of course people to argue where that line is too.
All set is string follow because it's the string that is causing it.
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My opinion, Pat nailed it! I tend to think of set as any amount of tip deflection that wasn't there before you started bending the wood. String follow is when the tips, due to set, lie behind the bows back. But it does seem that the terms are used interchangeably.
Wiki.answers.com says "
What does 'string follow' mean in archery?
Archery Questions
Answers.com > Wiki Answers > Categories > Sports > Archery
Best Answer
String follow, also known as 'set' is a term used by bowyers to describe the amount a bow stays curved after it's unbraced (unstrung). For example you have a straight limbed bow. You brace (string) the bow with a brace height (distance between the arrow rest and where you nock the arrow) of 7". When you unbrace the bow, it maintains some of the curve that it had while braced. The amount it stays curved is the amount of string follow. The term is used for wood or backed self bows. Some string follow is not bad when creating a bow as it dampens hand shock and quiets a bow, but excessive string follow will rob a bow of cast.
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In terms of the performance of the bow the only measurement that matters is what the bow looks like right after you unstring it. because that is the shape it's in when you are shooting it. But even then, what matters is how the bow shoots.
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Deflex is when the bowyer causes the limbs to bend towards him or her usually to make a sweeter shooting bow. This can be done with heat and does not involve the collapse of belly wood as does set. Jawge
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I wouldn't call modest set "collapse" of the belly cells, they are merely squeezed past their elastic limit. True collapse is when you can see the crushing as visible signs.
George, Why would you say heating and bending doesn't also put the perma-squeeze on the wood cells?
Of course deflex should be put in the handle rather than the actual limbs but even if you deflex a handle you certainly have to squash those cells down. The heat just makes them easier to squeeze and sets them in that new position. Key word being "set".
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Set: permanent deflection on the limbs, resulting from compression of belly wood beyond its elastic limit. Set and string follow are not the same.
String follow: where by set, design, or natural deflex in the stave, an unbraced bows tips rest some distance bellyward of the back. Usually the result of set.
-TBB4
Kind of restates what some have already stated. But this seems more basic to understand.
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PatM, I don't know. I can't prove it without a microscope but I don't think the heating and bending would cause cell damage if done correctly. If it did we would be breaking more bows. Also, heating and bending towards the tips really doesn't cause chrysals. Chrysalled bellies take more set. Jawge
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Well then get a microscope Jawgey poo! We need to get this riddle solved. I dont care what the TBB's say!
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LOL, PD. THat would be an interesting dissertation for pHD. :) Jawge
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Well anyone with a minimal knowledge of bending wood permanently knows that by using heat or steam we are permanently collapsing or at least compressing the wood on the concave side of the bend. Do you think those wood cells magically vanish in order to get out of the way?
Of course they have to be "damaged" in order to do that. Why would this cause more breakage? Chrysals have the potential to decrease breakage, not increase it.
Plenty of leeway to straighten wood by "damaging" it before it becomes more likely to break.
It also depends what you mean by "heating and bending towards the tips". Bending which way? Recurving or flipping? Straightening kinks so that they are flat...?
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Pat if I start tillering with 4" of reflex and end up with 2" of reflex after shoot in. Is that string follow? Or set?
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And to PD's question, I pose the opposite. If I design an R/D bow to have the tips lie 1 inch behind the handle before it's ever shot in, does that bow follow the string?
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It's called string follow because the string is the force that applies the set. I'm not sure why this degree of something is so hard to grasp.
I've often said that nobody but the builder knows the original profile of the stave so why so much agonizing over what to call it?
Technically I would say that from an original profile of 4 inches of reflex, your stave has followed the string to 2 inches of set from the original profile.
So it has either 2 inches of string follow or 2 inches of set, because they are the same thing.
Remember you're giving all the data. If you just handed someone a shot in stave with 2 inches of reflex they wouldn't be able to even discuss it's degree of set/string follow, even though it is hidden in there.
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Its not hard to grasp my friend, its hard to agree with.
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Since you do "get" it then you will soon realize it's semantics..
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PatM,
Why do people bother differentiating between string follow and set?
PearlDrums,
'String follow and set are two totally different birds and do not mean the same thing, not even close.
What are you definitions?
We all know you can build a decent bow, lets hear it.
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I really don't know why they bother. I think it's partially a need to over-complicate things.
Bottom line is how lively the bow stays when shooting, not what it does when unstrung or what it originally looked like.
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So if they are the same thing then two identical bows shot in with 1" of reflex,one starting with 1 1/2" reflex and the other that started with 6" are the same thing? Do the math. They are NOT the same. If I posted a bow that was 1" reflex and it started with 6" and I said in my post it had 5" of string follow, I would get a whole bunch of people confused saying "huh".."what".." that doesn't look like 5" of string follow to me". And by your definition this bow wood have 5" of string follow? Separating the two by different definitions clarify this.
Set and string follow are two different definitions. <----thats a period.
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And to PD's question, I pose the opposite. If I design an R/D bow to have the tips lie 1 inch behind the handle before it's ever shot in, does that bow follow the string?
Yes it does have one inch of string follow because you induced it..read the simple definition Bryce posted...
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Set and string follow are two different definitions. <----thats a period.
What are the definitions?
And where does the 'temporary set' fit ?
Btw...
Ive read the definations in TBB4. But other places in the book (s) it says something like " the bow has taken only 1/2" set and follows the sting just 1" after unstringing...."
That implies something else is happening. Not set.
I know this is a contentious subject... But this is exactly what these forums are for and how we advance our art....
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Set: permanent deflection on the limbs, resulting from compression of belly wood beyond its elastic limit. Set and string follow are not the same.
String follow: where by set, design, or natural deflex in the stave, an unbraced bows tips rest some distance bellyward of the back. Usually the result of set.
-TBB4
Kind of restates what some have already stated. But this seems more basic to understand.
Its already been stated multiple times..and Bryce stated them the easiest in layman's terms quoted from the tbb..
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Set and string follow are two different definitions. <----thats a period.
What are the definitions?
And where does the 'temporary set' fit ?
Btw...
Ive read the definations in TBB4. But other places in the book (s) it says something like " the bow has taken only 1/2" set and follows the sting just 1" after unstringing...."
That implies something else is happening. Not set.
That means that bow started out with a 1/2" string follow probably due to the natural state of the stave
I know this is a contentious subject... But this is exactly what these forums are for and how we advance our art....
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Set is more like a verb and string follow adjective, I get it.
What I really want to know... and hasnt yet been answered is...
Will my bow not bounce back?
If after unstung it follows 1 inch, is that a predictable indicator of set?
So far PD's first post has come the close but isn't nearly complete.
And what of bow that are 10 years old?
Do they still bounce back to the unstrung profile?
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Chrysals have the potential to decrease breakage, not increase it.
Chrysals are in fact broken wood. Maybe the broken spots decrease stress in the rest of the belly but the bow is broken and on its way to folding where the chrysals are.
Sharpend they're both nouns.
"Following the string" is the older term, back when people probably didn't care a whole lot about reflex or whether somebody on the internet was going to be critical of their tillering job.
Nobody on this forum is going to settle the meaning of these terms with any amount of discussion, since 99% of the bowyers out there ain't reading this. And TBB wasn't written under divine inspiration, whether Bible is part of the title or not. If you want to distinguish between subtle differences in descriptions, you might just use the words to say exactly what you mean. In the case of just-unstrung set vs what you get when the bow has time to recover, you can use those words. Its already been stated which one of those is of practical significance, and which one is cosmetic.
One more observation that speaks somewhat to the original question. Shooting a well-made wood bow leads to set. Thats why the Thompsons went through multiple bows when they shot daily. If you rarely shoot a bow it will never wear out. If you shoot an overbuilt bow it will show little set, but will be sluggish. The former is a sad result of us having stupid jobs, the latter is to be avoided.
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I dont think they are EXACTLY nouns. One is a thing that happens and the other a descriptions of things. But that is back to the semantics argument, which is not at all helpful...
I think the chrysals comment was simply meant to say that 'chryals relieve stress from the wood'. Whether that is a degradation or not. I also believe that by "decrease breakage" the poster meant wholesale failure.
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Black Hawk, I read Bryce's definition and I said in my earlier post that I agree with it personally. That matches how I define the difference. My point is simply that PatM has a valid take on this IMO. Your argument about set and the 2 bows that each started with different degrees of set back and both ended up at the same spot after shooting in at 1" of reflex "they are not the same" was your response. I simply make the same argument with my scenario. Two bows of equal length, one starting with 3 inches of back set and the other starting with 1 inch of deflex. Both settle in with 1 inch of "string follow". Are these the same bows? If not then the classic definition still falls short of explaining the difference.
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Now, boys take it easy. We are talking about wood here and not US Foreign Policy. For years, the term string follow has meant the bow appears strung when it is not. PatM, you are changing the traditional definition which is your prerogative I suppose.. Definitions have their purpose as they are intended to lessen confusion.
As for heat damaging or not damaging wood, I don't know for sure. My point on that sentence about heating and bending was that no matter how much of it I've done it has never caused chrysalling which are the ultimate of belly wood collapse. Chrysals will eventually cause a bow to fold in upon itself like a book so they will break a bow.
Jawge
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'String follow and set are two totally different birds and do not mean the same thing, not even close.
What are you definitions?
We all know you can build a decent bow, lets hear it.
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Im flattered!...........My definition means nothing. I'll just keep building decent bows and not know why! Its much easier than trying to change the world.
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Ha!
I just get the idea that the first post ya made was right on target.
Just was trying to get some clarification. Thats all.
I'm clear as could be but something else is going on here. I think that something has little to do with my original concerns.
This thread is certainly raising the blood pressure isn't it.
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This thread is certainly raising the blood pressure isn't it.
Nope..not mine..this is nothing more than a debate and discussion.. 8)
And you'll come to realize some folks just like to stir the pot...but not me >:D....riiiiiiiiiight..lol
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Good, wouldn't want anyone's well being to be at stake due to a bow building question.
High blood pressure leads to all sorts of health issues...
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No way. Not here either. It's all good.
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Okay then, I still don't think my original question as been answered.
There have been some that were close or pointed in the right direction. Answers about over built bows, cosmetics or definition of one term or another but honestly I feel like I'm talking with a politician...
Is there a direct relationship to my bow follow the string now, temporarily, to the set it will take in the future.
I know a well tillered bow take less set and overbuilt is more reliable but what of the bounce back?
Assuming the wood is well tillered and cared for, will it bounce back ten years from now or will it turn to set?
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Theres three things everyone here has in common....building bows,a hard head,and have grown thick skin. Those who don't have or learn the latter two don't end up sticking around the forums for too long.
For those who like keeping track of data,and want to learn how to build a better bow, then it helps to discern the two the way they have been defined as two separate things and a cause and effect. Especially in this day and age when a lot of guys are into building performance bows.
As far as "temporary set" , yes I still look at it as set and the bow s belly starting to break down but not fully all the way yet. Can you maybe explain more of what exactly you mean by that term? Once it starts to break down you really can't correct the cells,but you can temper it back into some reflex like some guys do and gain some of a setback in the limbs/profile back.
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Okay then, I still don't think my original question as been answered.
Assuming the wood is well tillered and cared for, will it bounce back ten years from now or will it turn to set?
Assuming it has been made and cared for properly then no it shouldn't turn into set and will still bounce back. But,that's a tall order to ask for,and a lot of variables can come into play and induce more set than the day it was made.
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Right after stringing the bow show 3/4 of set.
1 hour later it is back to how it was before stringing.
A temporary condition.
Now, I know that set is a result of damage to the cells in the wood.
Heat treating, proper exercising etc. are known methods of reducing set and we know that wood has a 'memory' so to speak.
After unstringing a percentage of the cells return to their 'undamaged state' and some 'stick' or take set.
Assuming I can tiller a bow better than the best person in history...
Is that temporary condition (3/4 string follow in this case) an indicator of set? Assuming the bow isnt over drawn, strung too long, shot after being drowned at sea etc.
I know ever piece of wood is different, no absolutes etc.
But at what piont does a bow stop bouncing back and take set? Is there a direct relationship to bouncing back and set?
Does 3/4 now, temporarily, mean 3/4 forever later down the road?
Remember I care for my bows better than The Smithsonian and can tiller like I'm from another world.
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You posted while I was typing that last long winded reply.
And, answered my question...
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I will attempt. Your question leads me to believe that you are perhaps mistaken about the definition of "string follow". That was my take when I first read the post. Maybe I have misinterpreted your question, but it sounds to me like you are thinking that the set the bow is taking and then recovering from over time is defined as "string follow". It is not. That is set, it's just not permanent set. Now to really confuse things, if that set causes the tips to rest behind the handle, then it IS "string follow" just not permanent string follow. So the "string follow turning into set" as you offered the question is in my mind, confusing, but not as confusing as my explanation. Hope that clears it up for you.
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Originally, I misinterpreted string follow. This bow does haver some string follow, temporarily.
As a good number of other folks, clearly, also have done. I am 100% sure many others have the same idea of string follow as I did...
Whenever you read a post or even the the TBB series it refers to them separately, indicating related but separate conditions.
Folks say things like, 'has 1' follow bit relaxes to less than 1 inch set' or 'followed the string a good deal but settled into 2.5" of set".
Which is misleading, I have been building bows for quite a few years but only recently started reading on the forums what not.
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If used a lot they don't last forever....grab the chain saw or axe and get another piece of wood....OK......LOL.What's the oldest bow anybody still got on this forum?I've heard of bows shot 15 to 20 thousand times.None of mine yet but a bunch a couple thousand for sure.There still fine yet knock on wood.It's not the answer to your question but it's my solution of your question.
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Your asking whether soft set like just unstrung set will lead to permanent set at same heigth.Right?
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Yep,
but Ive never heard of 'soft set' though.
But the term does make sense.
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Then yes I would say as the years go on with the same bow eventually it will slowly take on the soft set as permanent set.With even a very well tillered bow but not as soon as a poorer tillered bow. IMHO.
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Your in good company, as this thread indicates, in not fully understanding "set vs string follow". These are relatively new terms when you think about it, so we can't go back to the original Latin or Germanic phrase. Just a bunch of hairy legged boys who began to refer to it as this or that, and then the terms were put into print. Heck, I think I know less about it now than I did earlier today.
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If you want to get people disagreeing on something put it in a book and put "Bible" on the cover.
Bows tend to be pretty good at holding their shot in profile if they are routinely shot in very similar conditions over time.
The trouble can arise when it gets a bit humid and and a bow designed for a specific drawlength gets overdrawn multiple times for whatever reason.
That can happen quite easily. If you shoot a shortish bow with overly long arrows you'll find yourself more likely to overdraw it when the adrenaline rises or your buddy challenges you to a flight shoot.
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Hey, this looks like a great discussion to join in on! I wanna have fun too!!!!
I have always looked at string follow and set as two terms to described wood bent in the same direction for two different reasons. Way I see it is this...
I have a log with some beautiful reflex, 5 inches even, and its thick enough for two bows if I split it right. So I do and get a perfect split. On stave has 5 inches of reflex, the other has 5 inches deflex ( or string follow ).
Both bows are made to the same draw weight/ length. The reflex stave now has only 3 inches of reflex after unstringing, ( wow, is that a word? ) and the deflex bow has 1 inch of set to add to the original 5 inches of string follow. ( It will have very low brace height string tension and would be a great candidate for recurved tips )
That is ( in m book ( which I will put the word Bible on just for fun )) how set and string follow work. String follow is the woods fault, set is the bowyers fault. These two terms are a great way tell folks the conditions your bow was built under.
Example, The bow looks like it took a bunch of set, but it only took one inch, the stave followed the string 5 inches before I started. OR, The bow had 5 inches of deflex and lost 2 inches due to set. The terms help describe the quality of your bow.
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Sounds good to me ???
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Sleek...The hole in that theory...I have a bow that was given to me. I know nothing of it's construction. The tips lie 1.5" behind the handle. Since we don't know what caused it, we can't call it either???? To me that is 1.5" of string follow. The degree to which it might have been caused by set is not knowable...I think.
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That's what I've been saying. Only the maker really knows. You can make an educated guess as to the original profile though.
I notice sleek saying that Deflex is like string follow.
Deflex in the proper sense is making the whole limb bend towards the Archer from the handle. The limbs aren't being manipulated themselves. Their plane is just being moved through a "pivot point".
I really don't see how you can call anything in a stave string follow until you put a string on it and cause that bend with the string applying force. The two halves of the trunk are just curved pieces of wood.
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I totally understand what you are saying pat...I just don't agree with the fact you think its irrelevant to distinguish the two as two seperat definitions and that its only a moot point. Because we as bowmakers( the one who made the bow) need to distinguish the two as different to help us make a better bow. If you didn't keep track of the fact you started with 3" of reflex and ended up with 3" of string follow in a properly seasoned stave, then you wood be unaware of the fact that your design is flawed.
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You'd know because it would shoot like a dog and probably would continue to deterioriate. But I agree that the amount of set you get from tillering, is a combined measure of your design and tillering job.
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PD, I don't know if you were asking me to define the 2 terms in one of your previous posts. I already did. Way back! Like I heard a baseball announcer say on a home run call. BTW those definitions in TBB 4 did not come up all of a sudden in a vacuum. Let's just say opinions were asked.
I spent a good part of my life teaching or trying to teach teenagers chemistry. I always repeated and summarized often times several times in the same period. I always liked it when a kid finally got it and said, "Now why didn't you tell us that?"
Still waiting for that "aha" moment here. LOL.
Jawge
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I'm real hesitant to jump into this mele, however I will throw my two cents into the pot. My understanding is that there is a difference and that difference has more to do with the back of the bow than the belly. This is just my understanding of it, right or wrong. Set is the permanent deformation of both the compression side and the tension side of the bow. String follow is the more pronounced deformation of the compression side(belly) than the tension side(back). I usually have more string follow in bows made of extremely tension strong woods than I do on woods like walnut that are pretty well balanced. However walnut takes more set. I believe that is because the walnut is not only deforming the belly, but permanently stretching the back. Woods like hickory will show more string follow because the belly reaches plasticity before the tension strong back. Since the back is still in the elasticity range when the belly goes plastic, the back will pull it back into reflex even though the belly is still deformed. I hope that makes sense. Once again, that's just my take on it, right or wrong. Josh
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I agree it wood too tom...that scenario was just an extreme example to make my point. Now if you took the difference between a bow with 3" of tip deflection due to set from its original position and only 1" on another identical at rest profile,then you prob won't be really able to tell the difference from shooting alone. Some folks don't really care about building a better bow and that's fine with me,but there are plenty other people who do and realizing the two as different helps to make them make a better bow. And lots of folks like to keep data and experiment each time they make one,and separating the two helps determine what's going on specifically,and helps to record your information.
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Exactly my friend..........
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Now to finish my thought after being so rudely interrupted by work. As I understand it, string follow doesn't lead to set, it is set. It is just compression deformation as opposed to both tension and compression deformation. It is important to know the difference so that you know what aspects of the design or method need changed. I view it as an indicator of the design flaws. If I have what I consider string follow then I know that the back is overpowering the belly and adjust accordingly. If is excessive set that doesn't eventually pull back, then i know that I need to adjust width, length, moisture levels or whatever. Its just another way to listen to the wood. If you don't differentiate between the two, you're missing an important part of what the wood is telling you. Just my opinion, Josh
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Gun Doc,
Your idea seems to be inline with my initial thought but...
Where does re-action wood fall into your understanding?
In my case, the bow in question is re-action wood from a know tension string wood. It also has a high crown...
It would be interesting if some Vine Maple veterans chimed in. I, in my personal experience, I have not met a wood so reactive to tension or compression aspects in the same stave.
Even with a superbly tillered limb it will still bounce back a great deal... That being a inherent trait of the wood itself not a design flaw...
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That's a good question that i don't have a good answer for. I have long heard of the extraordinary properties of vine maple, but I have never made a bow from it. I see it all over Western Oregon when I go out that way, but after talking to Keenan about the ridiculous laws in the state, I decided that it wouldn't be worth the risk to stop and pilfer a few staves. Vine maple seems to be pretty rare in Ks as well. Just guessing, I would think that string follow would be unavoidable in a wood with such properties. Just as some sort of set is unavoidable in any wooden bow. The question is not really how to eliminate set or string follow, but rather how to minimize it. The main point I was trying to make is to minimize set, you must first determine the cause of it. That is why I think it is important to draw a distinction between string follow and set. Performance wise, there is no difference to speak of. A bow works on the principle of opposing forces (tension and compression) . To be continued......
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Stupid smart phone screen ran out of room >:( Anyway back to my point. If you have two bows, one shows three inches of deflex due to set and the other is flat before stringing, but has 3 inches of string follow after being unstrung , they will perform similarly, all else being equal. This is because the bow with the string follow, although appearing to have more reflex, is not storing any energy until the string follow is taken up. In order to store energy, it has to have compression forces opposing the tension forces. That is why you hear people say that the profile of a freshly unstrung bow is the important one. A bow with stringfollow is a bow with set , pretending that it doesn't. I hope that helps, Josh
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Like I had mentioned earlier, this is what I understood string follow to be... thus prompting the title of the thread.
Many posts throughout this thread define it somewhat differently however...
Which has raised entirely different questions.
All of which have merit... but speak to a different concept or idea all together.
My original concept has addressed but number of interesting ideas have been brought forth.
Perhaps the title has changed to...
"What is string follow and how to create it"
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Josh if you ever feel the need to pull over and hack off a piece of VM. No ones gonna care. It's a weed around here. But you seem to be a more law abiding citizen, unlike myself >:D
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That seems to be the nature of these type of debates. They sort of wonder around a bit and get temporarily side tracked here and there, but i have to agree, a lot of interesting takes on the subject. It will probably never be completely determined what the definition of string follow is, but at least we know what a few of us mean when they use the term.
Bryce-lol! I'm not above hitting the shoulder and chopping down a few saplings, but I drive a semi and most coastal states, be it east or West, will use any excuse to squeeze a driver for fines and penalties. So, its just best that I behave when in hostile environments. That being said, I still have to fight the urge to hit the shoulder and whack a few down. >:D. Josh
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Well if your ever in the neighborhood let me know ;)
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Well if your ever in the neighborhood let me know ;)
I will do that! Just to be sure, what part of the state is your neighborhood? Most of my travels out there take me along the Columbia or across US-20 . Josh
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I live right off the Columbia river hwy 30. 45 mins west of Portland. :D