Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Cameroo on October 21, 2012, 05:51:22 pm
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I was going to try making some rawhide out of a deer hide, but I am having a hard time finding the "hydrated lime" required to help get the hair to slip faster. I have checked a few places, from farm stores to hardware stores, but can't find it. Does anyone know of a specific store (in Canada) that sells it? Or something else easily available that will do the same job? Thanks in advance.
I think I may be dealing with a divorce in the near future, after mentioning soaking a deer hide in the basement bathroom... maybe it's best if I don't find it... ;)
Edit: One more question - considering the potential divorce - would the hair even slip if it was soaked in near-freezing water outside in the garage? I can handle waiting longer, but I don't want to leave it for weeks only to find that it's not going to slip at all.
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Here you go:
"Pickling lime is powdered calcium hydroxide, and is also known as slaked lime. It should not be confused with industrial quick lime, burnt lime or agricultural lime, which are toxic. Pickling lime can still be found in grocery stores in the pickling section, but is readily available from online vendors."
Just make sure to keep it away from aluminum, it eats it up pretty badly. Go invest in a cheap plastic garbage can to do your hides outdoors. Assume for the sake of home and harmony that Mrs. Cam is always right!
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Try ashes and water.
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I've read that the lye in hardwood ashes will work too Eddie, but I don't have a woodstove and I cleaned out the fire pit earlier this year, so I'd have to have a bonfire to get enough ashes. I just figured going to the store would be easier.
I have already admitted defeat J-Dub, I'll be working outside. You gotta pick your battles, and this one just ain't worth winning :) But the fact that she's questioning my sanity just shows how society has lost touch with our ancestors' way of life. I guess this type of thing just doesn't seem unusual to a farm kid living in the city.
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other substitute besides wood ashes is potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide (red devil lye). 10 gal water + 4 oz lye.
i use wood ashes
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Try Halford hides there in Edmonton and Calgary. They sell tanning supplies and their mail order is good. Water will work by it's self but it'll take time in this cold climate. Find a flowing stream or section or river weigh down the hide with rocks. Check every coupla days move rocks around. Take about 2-3 weeks check by pulling hair. NOTE: wear warm rubber boots
Thanks Leroy
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You can also dry scrape the hair off of the hide. That's how Pappy does it when he's making brain tanned.
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Hard wood ashes work good, two or three days in the lye bath and the hair slips right off. Then rinse w/ a little vinegar and stretch it. Someone near you has a wood stove and ashes they are willing to part with. Good luck, dpg
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Thanks for the advice guys. I want to get this done as soon as I can since winter is coming and a frozen hide likely won't dry out that well :) I think I'll try the sodium hydroxide AKA lye AKA caustic soda AKA drain cleaner. I just don't want to mix it too strong and ruin the hide. I'll try your proportions Aaron and see how that works out.
Thanks again
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I always stretch and dry scrape the hair off. Lots faster and it doesnt smell.
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Wouldn't that be a lot harder to dry scrape the hair off than to have it basically wipe off with your hand?
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Here's a link to some hydrated lime sold in Canada. You might want to check the garden section of the local hardware store or go where farmers get their chemicals and feeds.
Hydrated lime is used in many applications including water and waste treatment, soil stabilization, agricultural applications, asphalt modification and flue gas desulfurization.
---http://ca.brockwhite.com/0p46i870/graymont-hydrated-lime/
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I rack the hide and dry scrape also,not sure on where to get the lime,I know a lot do it that way ,just never tried it. I was told early on that to slip the hair you had to ALMOST spoil the hide[I would say that is right] and you would get better quality rawhide/brain tanned leather by scraping so that is how I have always done it. :)
Pappy
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Wouldn't that be a lot harder to dry scrape the hair off than to have it basically wipe off with your hand?
Yes it is harder but only takes one day in good weather to get hide dry, and maybe an hour to scrape it. lots faster than letting it soak for a week first.
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I'm with you turtle,a little more labor intense but much faster and not much mess if you are scraping it right and getting the membrane with the hair,it comes of on sheets. :)
Pappy
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As per Jackcrafty's link I bought that kind of lime to treat the soil under my spruce trees. Check Co-op or UFA ifin I remember correctly it was about $12 for 20lbs.
Pappy..I've seen you and the guys doing this at twin oaks. Could it be possible for you to post a pic of your scraper? I'd rather not use chemicals it's the disposal of the stuff that bothers me.
Thanks Leroy
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Well that's good to know guys. I've already got this one soaking, but I might try to dry scrape the next one that I do. Pappy, I don't suppose you could post a picture of the tool that you use to scrape with?
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Just FYI - Last night I mixed about 5.5 oz of drain cleaner (AKA sodium hydroxide, or lye) into 15 gallons of warm water in a large plastic garbage can. There was a bit of green stuff floating on the surface of the water, probably from other ingredients in the drain cleaner (Draino brand). It looked like green soap scum. Anyway, I dropped the hide in and let it sit overnight. I gave it a stir this morning, and again at lunch. I just went out and checked it (after soaking now for about 24 hours) and the hair is already starting to slip. It seems that the cold temperature (there's snow on the ground now) did not slow down the reaction with the lye.
So, now I'm going to gently scrape the hide, rinse it, soak it twice it a baking soda solution (double handful per 5 gallons of water), and then a 3rd time in a vinegar solution (1/2 cup per 5 gallons water) to get the pH close to neutral. Then I guess I have to quick throw together a 2x4 frame to stretch and dry the hide.
Wish me luck!
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Good luck and wear gloves. ;) ;D ;D I will try and post some pictures of the tool
as so as I get to the cabing and take some. :)
Pappy
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So, now I'm going to gently scrape the hide, rinse it, soak it twice it a baking soda solution (double handful per 5 gallons of water), and then a 3rd time in a vinegar solution (1/2 cup per 5 gallons water) to get the pH close to neutral. Then I guess I have to quick throw together a 2x4 frame to stretch and dry the hide.
Wish me luck!
Just asking...Never used this method...It's been over 30 years since chem class. What would the reason for the baking soda? Ifin I remember baking soda is the cautic and vineger is the acid and they neutralize each other. Wouldn't just adding vineger to the solution be just as good. Being a former raiser of african cicilades I used to test the water with litnous paper to find my ph. Good luck hope it turns out well.
Thanks Leroy
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Hey Leroy. It's been a while since I've hit the chemistry books too :) I'm just basing this on a thread I read a while ago on paleoplanet. A gentleman on there who makes rawhide on a regular basis went into a good amount of detail on his process. You are right, baking soda is slightly caustic, but it's very close to neutral (with a pH of 8 ), and way less caustic than drain cleaner (lye is about as caustic as it gets, with a pH of 14). I guess the idea is to use the baking soda to bring the pH closer to 7 (neutral), and then a quick rinse in the weak vinegar solution to get it even closer to neutral. Why you can't just use a stronger vinegar solution is a mystery to me. All I know is this guy has a lot more experience than I do, so I'm just taking his word for it.
My thinking is a lot like yours - I'd like to stay away from chemicals as well. I think I'll try dry scraping next time.
Just a quick update - I started scraping the hide around 9:00 last night. My intention was to just go out and give it a stir, but I noticed that the hair was slipping so I went to work because I didn't know how long was too long to be in the lye solution. After about 90 minutes of scraping I was not even half done. I couldn't finish and had already dumped the lye mixture, so I just put some water in the garbage can and returned the unfinished hide. I'm hoping that the hide stays swollen until this evening when I can get back to finish the job. Since some guys just soak the hide in plain water until the hair slips, I'm assuming it will be ok. My understanding is the swelling of the hide won't go down until the pH gets back to neutral, so in theory, the hair should still slip just as well tonight. I'll let you guys know how that goes.
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Interesting on the baking soda maybe a buffering agent. Your hide will survive. I've done the water soak in a garbage can changing the water everyday. That's the way I was taught to do it. I like the dry scrape method less chance of lossing the hide and faster.
To do this right we might have to go to twin oaks for a hands on lesson. Purely research and developement we'll promise not to have any fun while we're there >:D
Leroy
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Sounds good, we'll split the gas next spring :)
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I left a hide in water for three days and found a bucket of jello and hair. But then, it's warmer down here.
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I left a hide in water for three days and found a bucket of jello and hair. But then, it's warmer down here.
Warm hair flavored jello. You southerners eat some straaaaaange foods. I'll stick to my lutefisk.
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Diddo what turtle and pappy said.Dry scraping stretched in the frame taking the epidermis off too makes for the best rawhide backing especially if it's a yearling deer.It might seem like a little bit of an undertaking I guess if you've never done it before but once you do it a few times it's nothing really.Then you're left with a nice flat sheet of rawhide.If you fool with that red devil lye you better wear some rubber gloves.It'll eat the skin right off your hand.Stir the hide with a wooden paddle or stick too.
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Oh sorry you've got it done already.Nevermind......LOL.
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Like I said I never tried the soaking method but it was my understanding that when it was ready you could almost wipe the hair off or spray it off with a water hose, It it take that long to get the hair off after soaking ,I am sure I will stay with the dry scrape method.We will be getting started as soon as the weather cools a bit, I have 8 hides to rack and scrape and 5 or 6 that are rolled up and ready for the brain tanning,we only keep the best and biggest for tanning and the others are just left as rawhide. Yours should be fine,I have heard of folks just soaking them in water or a creek till the hair slips,just really curious as to why yours is so much trouble to get the hair off. I thought it was supposed to be easier,a little messier but easier. ??? :o :)
Pappy
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Pappy - could be I didn't leave it in the lye quite long enough. I thought it would be better to go too little than too long, because I didn't want the hide to start breaking down. I guess there's a bit of a learning curve to this. When I started, the hair would come out if I pinched it and pulled with a bit of pressure. It didn't just wipe of, so maybe it needed more time.
Life got in the way and I wasn't able to work on it last night, so maybe the extra 2 days soaking in plain water will help loosen it up some more.
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I left a hide in water for three days and found a bucket of jello and hair. But then, it's warmer down here.
I've lost a few hides doing this in the early season when it's warm out. Gets me thinking dry is the way to go.
Thanks Leroy
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Just out of curiosity..Was your hide fully submerged? Pappy's comment got me thinking why some came and others didn't. Had this problem with the first hide I did. Figured out I had to make a disc out of plywood drilled bunch of holes it and place it on top of the hide with a cinder block to hold the hide down. Just a Thought
Thanks Leroy
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Cameroo,
I wet scrapped a few hides a few years ago just by soaking them in water for a few days. It was in my basement during winter, so temp was probably around 14C or so for the soak. Plus the hides were frozen when they went into the water. Overall, they didn't scrap overly easy though, especially the buck necks. That said, they didn't take longer than what yours seem to be taking to scrap with the lye. The hides were swollen so I think they soaked long enough.
Also, the water was quite...pleasant by the time they were finished soaking. Didn't have the nasty chemicals but I imagine the bacteria were having a hayday...probably should have wore gloves, now that I think about it. :)
After seeing people dry scrap, it looked much cleaner and just as quick. If I ever do another, that might be the way I go.
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Well, I got back to it tonight, and definitely learned a few things. There were some spots where the hairs almost fell off, and other spots where I had to put quite a bit of pressure on and ended up gouging the epidermis. I ended up leaving those spots and put the hide back in the water to see if soaking for another day helps it at all. I will probably end up having to do a dry scrape anyway, because there are spots where the finer undercoat hairs would not scrape off.
Lessons learned so far:
-I should have left it in the lye solution at least another day (which would have been 48 hours rather than 24). You shouldn't have to tug the hair off, it should come off with hardly any pressure at all.
-I should have stirred it more to ensure the whole hide was absorbing the same amount of lye (I stirred it 4 times over the first 24 hours, but didn't stir it at all over the following 2 days that it was soaking in plain water). It probably would have helped to weigh the hide down to keep it submerged (as Leroy seems to have also learned the hard way :) )
-Cold weather (unheated garage with snow on the ground) doesn't seem to hinder the action of the lye (although it sure makes your fingers numb when scraping a wet hide with rubber gloves on ::) )
A couple questions I've been pondering - is there any benefit to removing the epidermis? Or is that just a side effect of dry-scraping?
Also, I've read that if you leave the hide a little looser on the drying rack, you will end up with a more transparent hide. Can anyone confirm this?
...It was in my basement during winter...Also, the water was quite...pleasant by the time they were finished soaking.
ha ha :) I'm not sure that would go over very well at my house. I ran it by the lady of the house and she almost barfed just thinking about it! I figure she was just too sheltered as a child...
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For raw hide maybe not on the epidermis,not sure but if you are going to hake leather[brain tan] it is a must or it will have stiff spots where it is left on,won't get soft. Never tried intentionally to leave one loose,the ones I have had that wasn't tight in the rack just came out rinkled,so I try and get them as tight as possible,usuall go around the rack at least 3 times tightening while it is still wet,
never noticed the skin be more transparent on the ones that were loose. :) I would guess yours needed more time in the soak. :)
Pappy
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Well, I got back to it tonight, and definitely learned a few things. There were some spots where the hairs almost fell off, and other spots where I had to put quite a bit of pressure on and ended up gouging the epidermis. I ended up leaving those spots and put the hide back in the water to see if soaking for another day helps it at all. I will probably end up having to do a dry scrape anyway, because there are spots where the finer undercoat hairs would not scrape off.
Lessons learned so far:
It probably would have helped to weigh the hide down to keep it submerged (as Leroy seems to have also learned the hard way :) )
My Dad says "Once a mistake twice a fool. That's how we learn." He always encouraged us to try things.
A couple questions I've been pondering - is there any benefit to removing the epidermis? Or is that just a side effect of dry-scraping?
I was told by a freind that you had to scrape off the epidermis to get the folicles off. After i removed the hair I racked it and than took a skinning knife and scraped the hide.
Also, I've read that if you leave the hide a little looser on the drying rack, you will end up with a more transparent hide. Can anyone confirm this.
Tighter the better
ha ha :) I'm not sure that would go over very well at my house. I ran it by the lady of the house and she almost barfed just thinking about it! I figure she was just too sheltered as a child...
[/quote]
RULE 1- Mama happy everybody happy
RULE 2- Any questions see rule 1
More of Dad's wisdom
Ms Kerrie likes my hobbies as long they do not enter the home until fully finished for veiwing.
Thanks Leroy
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I finally got this hide on the stretching rack the other day, and I learned something else. I had the hide draped over a 3 inch diameter PVC pipe when I was fleshing and dehairing it. The pipe was leaning up against the fence as I scrapped. I should have rounded the edges of the pipe and leaned it against something softer, because there are a few places where the pipe wore through the grain layer of the hide. Probably not a big deal, but it sure doesn't look very professional :) Anyway, here are a few pics. I used hog ring staples to attach the hide to the cord. This worked pretty good because I didn't have to feed 50 feet of cord through each hole in the hide. Also, if the hide was loose in a certain spot, I just had to add another staple. I found I had to crimp the ends a bit with pliers so that they didn't just bend open when I put tension on them. The last pic is a scraper I slapped together from and old file.
I think this might end up being freeze-dried rawhide - I should have got my deer earlier in the season I guess ;D
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/cbergerman/640/Rawhide/P1160172s.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/cbergerman/640/Rawhide/P1160175s.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/cbergerman/640/Rawhide/P1160177s.jpg)
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Is that a 45 degree angle you have on the handle?
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I didn't measure, but it's probably closer to 60 or 65. I didn't want it to be too aggressive because I'd already made a mess of hide ;) I should have mentioned that I only used this tool after it was on the rack, for cleaning it up and scraping off a few remaining bits of membrane on the flesh side. I used a dull drawknife over a 3" PVC pipe originally to flesh it, and a piece of wood with a crisp 90 edge on it to remove the hair (also on the 3" pipe) Sorry I didn't take pictures of that part, but my hands were a bit messy :)
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That is looking good,the scraper looks a lot like the one I use.Be careful when it dries,where the holes are it will rip like a sheet of paper very easily. :)
Pappy
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Looks good Cam. I like your hog ring idea that would be a time saver. Boomstick season opens in a week have to get a hide. Between work and funerals haven't been out in a month. That's the problem with work it cuts into your free time.
Thanks Leroy
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Thanks Leroy. Sorry to hear that. I guess it makes you appreciate your time out in the bush that much more though. Good luck harvesting a deer.
I'll be carefull around the holes Pappy, thanks for the tip. I was actually surprised by how tough the hide was around the holes, but that was while it was wet.
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Dont worry about the temperature. Alot of folks "freeze dry" their hides. The biggest concern is airflow. Keep them dry and keep the air flowing and they will dry frozen or not.
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Just an update - I took the hide off the rack this evening, it seems to have turned out ok. Next time things should go smoother, I learned a lot from this first go around. The lighting is horrible, but here's a picture of how it turned out.
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/cbergerman/640/Rawhide/P1160184s.jpg)