Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kegan on September 28, 2007, 07:04:30 pm
-
Well, for this past month, and on the opener tomarrow, I'm shooting in a way most of us has tried to avoid. Using well overspined arrows on wide handled bows. Most of us know you can use overspined arrows with anrrow handles, or normal spined arrows with wide handles, but why use them together?
Well, I have discovered an amazingly accurate, and easily made primitive method, that works really, really well. Simply turning your hand, and shooting the arrow "straight", has given me an accuracy that I couldn't acheive with cedar arrows and narrow flatbows. The bows, arrows, and matching, is made much easier. This method works great for close-up andat a distance. Arrows need meet only three requirements: straight, well aligned broadheads, and good fletchings :).
Anyone who wants to try something "easier", should give it a try. Below is a picture courtesy of my very brave brother, showing how the bow is moved out of the way, and one siply aims the arrow(my left closed, but actual whooting would be done, of course, with both eyes open).
What's everyone think?
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Simply turning your hand, and shooting the arrow "straight", has given me an accuracy that I couldn't acheive with cedar arrows and narrow flatbows.
Below is a picture courtesy of my very brave brother, showing how the bow is moved out of the way, and one siply aims the arrow
Are you referring to turning the bow hand so the top of the bow moves out of the sight picture? Then you can sight right down the arrow. ??? Justin
-
You mean turning the bow till its parallel with the ground? Still will be dealing with archers paradox though. One other way is to build the bow so the sting does not go down the center of the bow but off to the left so the arrow does not need to bend arround the bow handle.
David T
-
Hi, It;'s great that you found a shooting/ aiming style that works for you. I've read through your description several times and, though I may be misunderstanding, it doesn't seem that unusual. Most western styles emphasize anchoring in a way that allows a sight picture straight down the arrow ( as illustrated in your brother's photo.) Regardless of hand position on the bow, the nock end of the arrow is still going to be moved toward the centerline of the bow causing the arrow to deal with archer's paradox. Ron
-
Justin- No, though I still cant it. What I mean is, the bow is off to the side. INstead of pointing the center of the bow toward the target, I push the knuckle of my index finger.As you can see in the picture, the bow is off to the side, where as the arrow is pointed straight and the bow is pointed off ot the side.
D.Tiller- No, the bow isn't parallel to the ground. The arrows are just spined much higher than the bow (the arrows are spined at somewhere between 80-100+# for a 57# bow. Any arrow that is stiffer than the bow seems to work well). I don't know how setting the string off center would affect this method, though I would surely like to try/hear about it.
Ron- That's something I've thought about when making arrows. It seems alot easier to make an arrow really sittf and just change your shooting style than to try and perfectly match arrows. And the affects of the paradox aren't experinced quite as much, due to the extreme stiffness in the arrows.
Below is a diagram of the two methods, the normal way to the left and my shooting method to the right.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Like Ron said, I don't see in the picture or the description how it differs from the way mos of us shoot. Archers paradox will still apply. It don't matter where the arrow points, the bow arrow and string are all doing the same thing. It seems you may be trying to adjust for too stiff a spine and the arrow moving left because of it. Justin
-
I think the paradox will apply if the arrow is matched to the bow. But if it's way overspined it will go straight out without bending, commonly at an angle, but if you put bow back at an angle then it will go straight forward. That's how I get it, but I am no expert.
-
I think I see what your saying. Istead of putting the arrow right next to the bow you are away from the bow and resting your arrow on the knuckle of your hand. This will get most of the arrow to avoid the handle but the tail end will still be slapping into the handle of the bow. Your just avoiding about half the ammout of paradox you usually deal with when its up against the bow. Same priciple of barrell tapering the shaft. Try that too and I think you will see the same results.
David T
-
I think I see what your saying. Istead of putting the arrow right next to the bow you are away from the bow and resting your arrow on the knuckle of your hand. This will get most of the arrow to avoid the handle but the tail end will still be slapping into the handle of the bow. Your just avoiding about half the ammout of paradox you usually deal with when its up against the bow. Same priciple of barrell tapering the shaft. Try that too and I think you will see the same results.
David T
It is still resting on the bow. By moving it out, you are farther from center shot and the paradox would be worse. Justin
-
Being shooting that way for 50 years now, my young friend, LOL ;D ;D
-
I'm still lost on this one ??? ??? ??? Someone care to explain it so a caveman can understand? ;)
-
I'm still lost on this one ??? ??? ??? Someone care to explain it so a caveman can understand? ;)
The way I see it, an overspined arrow will naturally shoot left. He has learned to compensate for this by aiming farther right. Justin
-
Thats what I was thinking. By turning the wrist you are point the arrow to the right compensating for the left flight of an overspined arrow as justin just said. My son has been doing it with his bow since his 24 inch 5/16 shafts are way overspined for his 25 pound bow.....don't worry Dad is making his boy some longer matched arrows so the guy can experience some better accuracy
-
kegan i do sort of the same thing. have for a long time. only problem with this is you need a clean loose so the nock doesnt slap the side of the bow and make too much noise for hunting.
-
kegan, the fact that you aim initially with one eye closed may mean you are left eye dominant. When I close my left eye and point at an object and then open it (no matter in what order) my finger still points at the object. Also, that diagram just does not make sense. When you shoot the arrow way off to the left of the bow you are increasing the angle rather than decreasing it like you showed it. Having said all of the above, this method may be working because you are keeping the stiffer arrow from whacking into the bow on release. Some judicious sanding and scraping in the middle of the arrow will bring the spine to the right place for your bow. Just my opinion. Jawge
-
I'm still lost on this one ??? ??? ??? Someone care to explain it so a caveman can understand? ;)
The way I see it, an overspined arrow will naturally shoot left. He has learned to compensate for this by aiming farther right. Justin
Bingo, and canting the bow so that the arrow lies in the nice little "V" of your hand and the bow, so you don't aim to the left so much. more, upward than to the right. It makes it alot easier to make "primitive" arrows. I believe someone told me to "shoot the heaviest spined arrows you can out of a longbow, and to cant the bow to help keep it straight". Hence "straight shooting". Turns any sapplig that is as big as your pinky into a potential arrow, and lets me use wide handled bows without having to get a perfectly spined arrows (as you can probably tell, I am way about doing things easy... even if they are obsurdly complicated). These arrows are also alot heavier, which I like alot :). I had so much trouble getting my sourwood arrows spined to the bows, and most of the time they never shot well even then.
-
I foound that a little cant helps me can!
-
I think most everybody cants the bow at least a little. Canting the bow helps with sight picture and with keeping the arrow on the bow/riser. I would really recommend you get the correct spine arrows. You still have to have them all evenly spined or they will not hit the same spot. Heavier spined arrows will still go farther left than others that are overspined but not as heavily spined. This style will also make it more difficult to switch bows. Because you are doing all the adjusting, a slightly wider or narrower riser than you are used to, will really throw your accuracy off.
-
Justin- That's what I thought, but it doesn't seem so. Most have a deflection on my homemade spine tester from anywhere between 18 degrees and 11 (from 80-100+#). All shoot well, even out to 40 yards or so- with broadheads. I don't have any explanation to why this works, but it does (anyone who uses this method could probably tell you). All I can come up with is that the heavier (and overspined) arrow still falls (canted it seem to paradox up and down?) makes it fall similiar to the lighter, slightly lighter spined arrows.. But this method isn't somehting I have come up with- on the contrary- this seems to be an old method. It works. As for swithcing bows, as I am pointing the tip of the arrow/my knuckle at what I want to hit, it seem that the bow doesn't matter... as long as it is made to shoot off your hand. I tried it on my brother's recurve and it didn't work at all. I tried it on his narrow handled bow and it worked fine. Anyone else who shoots this way, please jump in and help me try and explain it. :P
I know this breaks the rules of archery again, but the rules are meant to be... bent :)!
-
The big hole in your theory is that the deflection is perpendicular to the string on the horizontal plane. The bow would have to be canted to completely sideways before the arrow would deflect up not sideways. Justin
-
Kegan,I'm with Justin on this.You are just adjusting your aim point to make up for the stiffness.Get your brother to stand behind you and watch how your arrows fly on release.My guess is they will kick out way left before they recover.Or shoot one without fletching.Tuned arrows only need fletching to recover very quickly.If they hit the target with the nock to the left they are still over spined. Canting the bow only helps the left,right aim point.
-
I know it doesn't sound right, but it works. I'll see if I can get a video of shooting. The arrows shoot straight, fast, and quite accurately. Perhaps Jamie or Robinwho could explain how they do it?
-
My friends boy has done something similar but more extreme setting the bow completely horizontal and letting the arrows drop on in. I think this follows the same concept just more extreme. If he wants to hit lower he just rolls his wrist down. It really is JUST adjusting your point of aim to compensate for arrow stiffness I believe
-
My friends boy has done something similar but more extreme setting the bow completely horizontal and letting the arrows drop on in. I think this follows the same concept just more extreme. If he wants to hit lower he just rolls his wrist down. It really is JUST adjusting your point of aim to compensate for arrow stiffness I believe
Pretty much, just twisting yourself around the bow and arrow, and making the arrows a little different. Pointing your knuckle instead of the center of the bow.
-
I usually shoot with the bow canted pretty much horizontally-probably the same concept. Seems a lot more tolerant of different spines.
-
"Pointing your knuckle instead of the center of the bow."
No one that I know of aims using the center of the bow!!
I'm a gap shooter (though I wish I could shoot more instinctively) and the point of my arrow points [nearly] in the direction of what I intend to hit, though I don't necessarily concentrate on the arrow point.....
it seems that you've just discovered this for yourself Kegan and that there is no breakthrough..or at least none that I can see!
-
Actually it looks more like he is torquing the bow
-
it seems that you've just discovered this for yourself Kegan and that there is no breakthrough..or at least none that I can see!
Exactly! I figured that this was how some others shot, and how (I think) some Natives/Aboriginis shot. Just trying to see what others thought of it :). Nothing new here, except for me- but I have never seen it in print so I thought I'd bring it up here. I was told by an old longbowman to shoot in a method not unlike this when I first started with a bow, but just recently picked it up again. This is more somethig I've rediscovered for myself about the bow/arrow match-up than anything else- ehnce why I put it in the bow's forum.
As for point the knuckle, most of the people I know who shoot modern recurves and longbows say to match the spine perfectly and to point the center of the bow. For this reason I'm a crap shot with a recurve :).
-
So this brings up a phrase that my brother and law and I share whenever we miss......
IS IT THE INDIAN OR THE ARROW
If you have the properly matched arrows in the first place you do not have to resort to "tricks" to shoot better ya know ;D
Again like was said in an earlier post....
Any stick makum bow but the arrow is a heap bunch of work
-
So this brings up a phrase that my brother and law and I share whenever we miss......
IS IT THE INDIAN OR THE ARROW
If you have the properly matched arrows in the first place you do not have to resort to "tricks" to shoot better ya know ;D
Again like was said in an earlier post....
Any stick makum bow but the arrow is a heap bunch of work
Never said it was a trick- just a different way of matching arrows to a bow and still coming out accurately. It's easy, simple, and alot less work if done primitive-primitive, to use John McPherson's phrase. IF all your arrows are rather stiff, than they are matched... just not by modern standards, where one can match the spine of each stick to match the bow perfectly so that the shaft bends perfectly around the bow. Too comp;icated for me anyway ::)
-
I would say you are not matching your arrows TO your bow but you are matching them to eachother....just my two cents.
If my arrows fly left I shorten them....if they fly right I either sand them or give them heavier points thus changing dynamic spine of either arrow. It takes time but it is relatively easy once you learn. I hate relying on tricks such as changing your aimpoint to put the arrow left or right. I would rather gauge distance and hold up or down and let her fly and let gravity operate.
To me anyway, matching the arrow spine to the bow is half the fun.
-
Your method works well for you I'm sure, but I've fallen for shorter, wide handled D bows. These bows are, at least for me, harder to tune arrows to. So, leave them all stiff and I'm fine.
-
Kegan, someone gave me a red oak wide handled bow a while back, the tiller looks perfect and it looks like it could be shot with either limb as the top. If I hold the bow one way it will shoot stiff spined arrows 2 feet to the left (55spine from 45# bow) If I flip the bow over it will shoot the same arrows perfectly center, I am assuming there is some torquing in the bow I cant see or feel. Spine is important, it sounds to me like those arrows are spined right for your bow the way it is built, have you tried this method with several different bows, or tried flipping this bow over and shooting it? Steve
-
I dont think it has anything to do with how wide my handles are. Some of my bows are as much as two inches wide at the handle and I dont own one that is cut to center as I prefer the bulbous type handle. I maintain, as many others do, that proper arrows matched to your BOW first and to each other second will not require "tricks" to get them to fly well. Arrows are not easy but they ARE simple. Just ask some of those ole boys that shoot hardware store nutters with great accuracy.
-
Kegan, someone gave me a red oak wide handled bow a while back, the tiller looks perfect and it looks like it could be shot with either limb as the top. If I hold the bow one way it will shoot stiff spined arrows 2 feet to the left (55spine from 45# bow) If I flip the bow over it will shoot the same arrows perfectly center, I am assuming there is some torquing in the bow I cant see or feel. Spine is important, it sounds to me like those arrows are spined right for your bow the way it is built, have you tried this method with several different bows, or tried flipping this bow over and shooting it? Steve
I've tried it on six bows so far, and as of yet only the wider handles (1 1/4"+) seem to work well with it. I also tried veral spines, including ones that would match the bow. It seems that the arrow need only be slightly stiffer, as in 5 pounds more. As long as the arrows aren't under spined it seems to work well.
I'd also like to note that in Paul Comstock's The Bent Stick he mentions drawing the arrow straight with the target, and quotes several of the old time archers of doing the same, though he notes that one should still use arrows matched in spine to the bow. I'm going to do alot more tests (I love experimenting ;D) and see how it all relates. Perhaps it is all just my way of getting used to wide handled bows?
-
Kegan, I think everybody tries to point the arrow straight at the target. If you have to aim left or right, the arrows are not spined for the bow!
I'm not good enough with a computer to make neat little diagrams. But the simple fact of the matter is that no matter how you twist the bow the arrow points further and further to the side as the string moves closer to the bow. It happens too fast to see, but for any non-center shot bow the arrow must flex for the arrowhead to move in a straight line. Ron