Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on October 12, 2012, 09:32:37 am
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Amin, if there is a better place for this, feel free to move it or let me know. This is something I felt like writing because I feel like it could help some folks out with less than ideal staves still produce a very nice bow.
So I would like to post here about a few lessons I have learned. This is not going to always be true but I suspect more often than not. Feel free to add or correct if you wish.
Thin ringed osage, when chased to a single growth ring has several problems. One being the obvious, the rings are thin and hard to chase. The other lesser obvious is the tool marks. Once your ring is established, you need to clean up your tooling marks, you know, the little nicks, chatter ( AKA wash boarding ) and lines left behind from your scrapper. The marks if left alone are stress risers. They are all potential breaking points from where the ring is partially violated and invites a splinter to pop.
Assuming you pop a splinter in your thin ringed osage you can always super glue it down and put a wrap of thread around it to fix that splinter. But chances are high ( read, its gonna happen ) that another splinter will pop somewhere else. The first splinter popping is telling you something so listen and you may save your bow. Its telling you the back ring is so thin, it cannot do its job of holding in the tension stresses. It needs help.
There are two ways to do this. One is back the bow with rawhide, sinew, silk, linen, or some other popular backing. These provide durable backings that hold down the splinters and relieve the back of some of its stresses. You may not want to back your bow however. The way for you to go then would be to decrown your bow. It really may not take much. Just a few consistent flat strokes with your scraper to give you a path of about an inch wide, following the waves of your bow should do. You may ( probably ) be able to even remove the splinter completely while doing this. Adjusting the tiller afterwards is an easy task. The bows weight will have dropped a few pounds depending on how much wood was removed. Shortening the bow, recurving the bow slightly ( remember the wood is thin ringed, dont overstress it ) or heat treating it will recover your weight lost.
Of course the best way with this when dealing with thin rings is to back, decrown to begin with. One last option that needs be mentioned is the sapwood. If the sapwood is in good shape and has thicker rings than the heartwood, leave it on there. You can chare a sap ring to give you a better back than your heartwood would, giving you a much better chance of holding a bow instead of your head because a limb just went air born...
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I think this is all good advice Sleek, but I would offer that even thin ringed Osage can become a successful unbacked bow, and all things being equal (they rarely are when you have to add this modifier), I prefer no backing if possible. I just finished a thin ringed Osage bow I posted yesterday. Each ring is around 1/16" in thickness. The strongest part of each ring is the very latest growth, so care must be taken to leave as much of it as you can on the back. When chasing the ring that will become the back, scrape the early growth just on top of it VERY carefully. This is so easy to recommend and so difficult to accomplish in real time. I'm pretty good with a draw knife as I've had lot's of practice. But on these rings you might want to consider sand paper to remove the early growth. I did not and the results are evident. The back is smooth with no divots, but the areas that are just millimeters below the adjacent high spots are visible as shadows (the wood had become dark, and when sanded the high spots lightened up). To remove the dark spots I would have had to take off more wood from the back. I left it blotchy in color to keep as much wood on the thin ring as possible. End result is a working bow, unbacked and not decrowned. Only put 50 arrows or so thru it to this point, but I believe it's good to go. We will see over the next few weeks, but I'm pretty sure it'll hold. Again, very good observations and advice you offered up, just thought it important to give a slightly different perspective.
Edit... I burnish the back on most all my bows, but I believe it is especially important on these thin ringed Osage bows. I use a big gravy spoon and really get some pressure on it to lay the fibers down. I get it where I have the light at a low angle so I can monitor the progress visually. I put my finish on immediately after burnishing.
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Thank you very much for your input sir, exactly the kind of stuff I was hopping would be added.
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I copied n pasted my response from pp over here.
In my opinion the key to thin ringed osage lays within how well you chased the ring. You have to be much more careful with the draw knife. I've made a bit of bows from tight ringed osage ( all unbacked too). I will get it down carefully to one ring above my chosen ring, then carefully use a duller drawknife on it till I just start to hit the early wood, then move on up the stave just starting to expose the early crunchy growth. So this leaves a mostly early growth patchy back. This insures you never go to far and down into you chosen ring with the drawknife and thin the ring. Then I take my scraper and scrape the rest of the early growth off. I have had a couple not so nice thinringed staves that just wanted to tear n splinter, so I ended up chasing to one ring above my chosen ring, then scrape away that remaining ring with my wrists cursing me once I was done..lol. Andwhen you use a scraper you should start at one end and keep working your way up the stave pulling towards you, because if you xo it will pretty much remove its own tool marks and leave you more meat on the ring( which you need on thin stuff)and you won't lose some of it sanding it out.
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Here is a trick that I use on thin ringed Osage. When I started removing wood from staves with a draw knife I would use the draw knife with the blade bevel up. It worked great to hog wood off quickly but I had a hard time controlling the knife on thin rings. Then my former life as a parmedic kicked in and I thought about a lesson I learned years ago when staring IV's, another story for another time. I flipped my draw knife over, bevel down, and started taking off thin/ small amounts of wood. This works great for me. I don't get as many splinters and then I am able to do the fine touch up work in the valleys with a scraper or pocket knife. Funny thing, I have never been able to get a dull draw knife to work for me, so everything I do is with a sharpe knife. Good Luck with the thin ring osage.
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All real good advice. Blackhawcks method is exactly how i work thin rings. Had to figure it out early cus all i had was thin rings.
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You can also "overbuild" a thin ringed bow. Make it a little longer and a little wider than you would a thick ringed stave. Less stress on more wood. You still need to chase a clean ring.
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I'm sorry, but I have made many osage bows through the years, quite a few with very tight rings. I have never found any difference in the way they finished though they are much more challenging to chase a ring on. I really do not share your concerns.
George
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I do like blackhawk and get down to the ring above and early growth but then I finish chasing with 36 grit sandpaper. By the time you chase the ring all you have to do is finish sanding and not removing tool marks. A litlle slower but keeps you from going to the next ring while cleaning it up
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George, have you ever had an osage pop a splinter on you? If so, what did you determine the cause was?
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I agree with George> If you violated the top then you were too aggressive with your procedure in the first place. You should have taken more time and left more room!!!
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George, have you ever had an osage pop a splinter on you? If so, what did you determine the cause was?
None that I remember. When I have problems I normally get a split off a knot or one of the dark weather damage cracks. I did have a couple blow up due to insect damage. I've never let ring count influence whether I back the bow or not. That decision is normally made based on whether it's going to someone else and I want it to be bullet proof, if I run into problems around a knot, or if I'm pushing the design envelope. I have found that if the osage is even a little bit green it is very hard to prevent a thin ring from tearing as you go around knots.
I 100% agree that real tight rings are not best for new bowyers to make an unbacked bow from as it requires advanced skill with the draw knife and scraper. If they back it they should be fine. Osage is a fine beginners bow wood.
George
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I love thin ringed osage! Any time I make a bow with thin rings I try my best not to violate the back ring but that is not always possible...at least for me it isn't. I generally back thesec bows with rawhide(other simple backings will work) and have been pretty successful with my attempts. I have had a few blow but that is part of the excitement of wood bow building. ;)
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I DON'T CONCEDER A 16 TH THAT THIN.
I made quite a few with a lot thiner and if the backs all one ring you don't need it.
I use the ring under the sapwood all the time.
As long as you go slow tillering and down go to far to fast it will be ok.
I you need to barnish the back or leave a 1/8 inch of sap wood on it or back it.
I don't do anything speical just biuld the bow.
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4.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 8.5, 10, 10.5.......That's the ring count per inch on 6 Osage bows and 2 staves I just looked at. 16 rings per inch is considerably higher than any others I have laying around. Figure that after you take that 1/16 inch ring and factor out the early growth of say 25-30%, you have a late wood back that is less than 1/20th of an inch thick. Yes you can FIND thinner for sure, but that's plenty thin in my experience! Or, things really are bigger here in Texas.
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Not in my experience Slim. I've worked osage from IL, NE, KS, OK & TX, and the Texas osage has had the tightest rings. I don't know how you count rpi though, it's so uneven down here. Here's an example, end cuts from the same stave.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8463/8084904528_be0370eb26_z.jpg)
The larger end has rings in the eighth inch range (8rpi) which I find are pretty good for my area of Texas, while the smaller end has much tighter rings in the 12rpi range. There's a lot of variation in ring width in the stave.
But, these are the tightest osage rings I've seen.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5019/5572089588_02670d9a7e_z.jpg)
This bow not yet finished, but it is unbacked...primarily because it is laden with knots. Sadly, I spliced the billets poorly and the tips aren't even close to putting the string in the handle. I haven't gone back and tried to fix the bow yet. If ever I was gonna get a splinter to pop it'd be on that one.
George
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Yeah, I was kinda jokin' about the Big Texas thing. C'mon, Texas OU weekend (sad effort by the horns). I've had ring counts all over map. Most of my wood has come from Texas, but from all corners of the state from the Llano Estacado to the Piney Woods to the Edwards Plateau. I don't think geography has much to do with ring count. I will say that I cut some Bois d'ark about 10 years ago off wind breaks out near Guthrie. Thin little rings on all of it. But probably the heaviest densest wood I've ever worked. Very little early growth between the rings. Much darker color, more orange than yellow. Great bow wood. Some of the thickest ringed has come from here in the Hill Country. Close to a quarter inch rings, but it was not the quality of the thinner stuff. Not bad, just less dense. My only point above was I think 1/16 inch rings are among the thinner rings I've worked. Throw in a high percentage of early growth and you have a paper thin back. I don't claim to have made as many bows as some of you guys. And I don't believe I would consider myself in your class as a bowyer, or in the class of many others on this forum. But I've made a few, picked up some knowledge and experience along the way. Enough to have brought others into our little group and helped them get started on wood bows. Some are making better bows than me now! I've got a take on things based on what I've seen, but I'm always ready discard things I thought to be true when I am shown that in fact they are not. Keeps us growing. Whether or not a certain ring thickness could be defined as "Thin" is purely ones own opinion. Neither right nor wrong, just...ones own take.
Edit... these two came from the same general area east of Austin. Huge difference in the rpi. Both made bows of the same general size and design. The thinner one was just much harder to chase a ring on.
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Yea Slim, the 'horns fans are pretty sad today. Both my son-in-laws went to college in OK and I expect to hear from both today. :) I'm really pretty neutral, having lived all over the midwest before here, but I might favor Nebraska's Huskers a little.
Well that's cool, your experience with wood all over Texas is very enlightening. While I've made bows out of osage from many states, in every case the wood came from the area around where we, or relatives lived. I have no experience with wood all around a state like you have. I would never have guessed that your thick ringed wood came from a dry place like the hill country. I've learned something, as that isn't my experience in Texas. I agree that thick ringed osage is a little less dense than thin, and both make great bows.
And that was the point of my original post. There are several benefits to a forum like this one, one of the biggies being the diversity of our shared experiences. I posted originally because my personal experience does not agree that thin ringed osage is prone to raising a splinter when unbacked. Like others, including yourself, thin ringed osage has made great unbacked bows for me. I agree with sleek that it might not be best for new bowyers and maybe that was the point to his post and I missed it. You're right, the definition of thin is gonna vary between bowyers and regions.
I'm certainly not in the league of most of the bowyers here. For example, I have never made a whitewood stave bow and only 1 board bow which was maple. I'm an osage guy through and through and only on osage bows do I feel I have enough experience to comment. Even there I have learned a great deal from people on the forum...even today. :) It's a great place.
George
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All this talk about thin ringed osage has my wheels turning. I have osage trees on my place that are small, but are really old. I know when you hit them with a hatchet, it bounces off. It's like hitting a steel pipe. They have super tiny rings and I bet they are really dense. When you cut into them, they have that dark aged look to them already. I might try to make a bow like the one I saw at the Classic this year. An older gentleman showed me the back of his osage bow. It was ring violations from one end to the other. The rings were paper thin. He said he sanded it real smooth and soaked the entire back in superglue. You could tell the bow had been well used. It was his daily shooter.
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George...I've cut a good bit of Bois d'ark up around your neck of the woods. Parker county, Wise county, Denton county. Places you wouldn't expect to find much if any. Same thing on rings, one tree would be straight and thick rings. The next tree was thin and twisted. Like you, most of my experience has been on Osage. 4 or 5 Hakcberry bows under my belt. Couple of Black Cherry attempts. Helped a newbie with a Rock Maple bow. Tried one board bow and it broke. Not a fan of 'em. I think if you can build one out of a board, you got skills. I'll stick with staves myself. By the way, good luck with that thin ringed piece in the picture. Looks like a challenge.
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There's quite a bit of osage right here in Collin county too. In fact my neighbor across the street has a tree in his back yard he needs to keep a close eye on. ;) You're right though, the whole area has good osage. If you feel like some more I have 2 trees guys have asked me to cut but I haven't yet as I don't need any more. I've been fortunate to make 2 friends that have lots chock full of osage they don't want on their property so I haven't strayed very far from home. Next time you're up this way let me know, be fun to get together.
How did the hackberry compare to osage for you? There's tons of it around here too, but I've never tried it. I have a nice stave I was given so it is in my future. My one board bow took a lot of set so I agree, it takes more skill than I sure thought it did to make them well. I'm embarrassed to say I really botched that thin ringed splice job. It has a big s-curve and I cut the splice to align the tips with the handle full length, without thinking that that'd be a 76" bow. When I cut it to 66" I cut off one of the curves and the string doesn't go through the handle. I'm really open to ideas as to how to fix it. Here's the link to a picture of it. http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5140/5572090328_4325a75054_z.jpg (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5140/5572090328_4325a75054_z.jpg). That may be before I shortened it.
Dang, I'm hijacking again. Sorry sleek. Good Idea OO, I've got a couple really gnarly osage branches that might be candidates for that kind of bow. I don't remember how tight the rings were.
George
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Love Hackberry! It will never take the place of Bois d'ark, but it's really unbelievably nice wood. Love to get together. I'm up there quite a bit as my family lives just west of Fort Worth. Wife's family Decatur. Sorry Sleek. Good thread you started! Lot's of info here.
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Hey, I am no hijack snob.... conversations spring from others, I get it... pluss, its related to my topic. Yall are talkin bout bows right? ;)
Oh, and I am sure I could do something with that stave of yours. I would shorten it evenly on both limbs to reduce off center string tracking. Then, I would ( IF I were OCD enough to worry about string tracking ) shape, or glue on, a handle without regard to which direction those limbs faced, that made the string track center of the new handle. In other words, If you cant bring the string to the handle, bring the handle around to the string. Then you will have a prop twisted bow, but it already looks like a propeller so what would that hurt?
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All right, I'll tell you what. I'll revive the old thread on that bow (or start a new one) and we'll take a stab at fixing it. I'm really having a problem envisioning how you could move the handle sideways, but I'm willing to try something new. Of course, given those thin rings and all those knots there's no guarantee this one won't blow splinters like crazy. Tool marks galore, but nearly all my bows have them. We won't know if it'll hold unless we try though. Up to now, every time I look at it and see how I glued that splice crooked to line the tips up when straight would have been perfect, I get so annoyed I put it away again. Wait until you see it. ::)
George
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Lookin forward to it bud! Just to add one more thing to that bow... don't recurve it. It will twist the tips to much...
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Well I'll be darned, it isn't as bad as I remembered. It's only about a quarter inch outside the handle. The back is loaded with tool marks and I'm gonna leave it just as is and see how it works out. It should pull up splinters. I've already had it on a long string but it needs a lot of work. Turns out I've never posted a thread on it? I'll go do it, be called the S-curve bow. Lots of pics to choose from.
EDIT: I found the old thread. Here it is: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,22278.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,22278.0.html) I have updated it.
George
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Just finished chasing rings on a very thin ringed stave that I had swapped for. The guy traded me three thin ring staves for two of my thick ringed ones cause the thin ringed ones were too thin for his taste..
I managed a good belley split off one so I'm four for the two.. :)
I use a double edged carvers draw knive to get down close to the ring that I want and then scrape with a small knife to clean down to the ring. Slow but steady.
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Gary Davis once told me to chase to the early growth, then seal for steaming and drying ,then sand off the sealer and as you do the early growth goes with it and no violations to the ring you want !
So basically same as blackhawk said
Have fun !
Guy
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this is all good info.thanks guys.i am chasing one now that is as thin as pacific yew.it is the thinnest rings that i have ever seen.