Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Fred Arnold on October 09, 2012, 12:40:22 am
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:D I swear this was fairly flat and straight when I placed it high on the rack of the shop a couple months ago. I trimmed it down some so that it would dry quicker. Here's what I found when I retrieved it. 72" but only 1 3/4 width to work with and this is mulberry.
I want suggestions because I have no clue what to do.
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Here's another of it hanging on nails in my future bathroom.
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Looks like some good reflex to me. It looks about the perfect amount to sinew back and have a fast shooter. 8)
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You make a bow out of it.Looks like a lot of my pignut hickory.
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SEND IT TO ME!!!!!!!!!! Thats a primo stave! Exactly enough meat for a nice bow and great reflex.
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Will the stave relax some after I remove the sapwood?
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Looks like some good even reflex. Good luck stringing it for the first time ;)
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Greas stave for flight bow I thing.
If a large reflex do deflex midle
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With staves like this it is tempting to think - big reflex = fast bow....
The thing to remember is that fresh wood = fast bow
Say that piece has 4 inches of reflex now and by the time it's a bow it sits dead straight well that bow has 4 inches of set...eg. it WILL have lost a lot of it's potential return speed.
Much better with these staves is to deflex the handle area (as suggested) with steam on a form. This will lower the overall stress it has to go through to get to brace, then full draw. Also deflex/reflex bows are one of the sweetest shooting designs out there when done correctly.
I've made plenty of bows from heavily reflexed staves and trust me it isn't always good news.
If I had to make a fast bow I would choose a stave with 1 - 2 inches max reflex.
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I am makint a bow now of Red Mulberry just as Mike just described. Deflex in the handle, ( I actually cut and scarfed the handle into a deflex rather than make it bend by steam ) with reflexed tips. Originally the reflex after adding the deflex in the handle was one inch. After shooting it some it has 2 inches of set, one inch of string follow.
I left the sapwood intact on the bow, though I did go down a few rings into it to make the bow as close to 50/50 sapwood heartwood ratio as I could with a pyramid front profile. This bow promises to be fast. I did a mild flip on the tips because of a 28 inch draw length I wanted no stacking.
I said all this, not to tell you about MY bow, but to let you know what you can do with YOUR stave. It is a prime stave, and you should be able to make a wonderful bow of it. I will post this bow I speak of soon as it is done to give you a visual idea of what I am talking about.
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With staves like this it is tempting to think - big reflex = fast bow....
The thing to remember is that fresh wood = fast bow
Say that piece has 4 inches of reflex now and by the time it's a bow it sits dead straight well that bow has 4 inches of set...eg. it WILL have lost a lot of it's potential return speed.
Much better with these staves is to deflex the handle area (as suggested) with steam on a form. This will lower the overall stress it has to go through to get to brace, then full draw. Also deflex/reflex bows are one of the sweetest shooting designs out there when done correctly.
I've made plenty of bows from heavily reflexed staves and trust me it isn't always good news.
If I had to make a fast bow I would choose a stave with 1 - 2 inches max reflex.
I have a few high reflex staves i have worked recently and i have been disappointed with all of them :( and I tried my best not to over stress them early on too.
I got to thinking that maybe the fact they reflex is solely due to the tension wood on the back pulling them into reflex which meant the compression wood was substandard as it was not being used.
The last one an elm still draws back to about 2 inch of reflex but just does not perform well.
I guess this is why adding a backing helps as it moves the neutral plane forward away from the poorer compression wood that was given a free ride by the high tension wood on teh back.
I bet that didnt come across well lol.
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What Mike said,I have had several that pulled into reflex like that and put high reflex in a few but for me I finely figured out it wasn't worth it. I think some don't understand if you start with 2 inches of reflex and wind- up flat you have 2 inches of set,if you start with a stave with 4 inches of reflex and wind- up with 1
inch of reflex you have 3 inches of set and usually won't perform any better. :)
Looks cool but that's about it , really tough to pull off and make weight also.
Pappy
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When you lay it out find the center of that flat section in the middle,then layout your length from there. Once you chop off some length you'll have approx 3" of reflex,cus it looks like you have about 4",n chopping some length off will reduce that down to a manageable level for you. And I wouldn't deflex that handle cus you'll be starting with a manageable amount once cut to length.
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After reading your replies I decided to measure and give some accurate readings. 5 1/4" of reflex and I've read here and elsewhere that is almost unmanageable. Even to string it would be a chore.
I'm just wondering how to remove some of the reflex without straining or ruining the wood cells.
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I may be totally off the track here so please bare with me. I'm still learning. If the reflex was caused by the tension side wouldn't heating the compression side equal the stresses out and bring equality to belly and back?
Does the back or tension side of a stave shrink more than the belly side when drying and cause the reflex?
Back to your original question... Looking at your stave I would try and leave the sapwood especially after what I am reading above as the stave is fairly well reduced to begin with. If the tension side pulled all that reflex then that's where the power is isn't it? If I was worried about the sapwood I'd back it?
Sorry I'm thinking out loud but hopfully learning ???
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Kip, that was my thinking also but I'm so inexperienced with this that I decided to get as many opinions as possible.
If the tension is that much stronger than the compression what good would the backing do? Would sinew or rawhide backing keep the bow from taking on excessive set?
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Sinew would pull more reflex into the bow Fred but rawhide will not do much except keep the back of the bow together and make it less likely to break. It has no performance value but gives security. Set is something that is more about the tillering process and stressing the bow evenly over the whole working limb.
Fred I am fairly new at this so I hope the information I give is cross checked :)
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Dont remove the reflex, just deflex the handle to make the bow very manageable.
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With staves like this it is tempting to think - big reflex = fast bow....
The thing to remember is that fresh wood = fast bow
Say that piece has 4 inches of reflex now and by the time it's a bow it sits dead straight well that bow has 4 inches of set...eg. it WILL have lost a lot of it's potential return speed.
Much better with these staves is to deflex the handle area (as suggested) with steam on a form. This will lower the overall stress it has to go through to get to brace, then full draw. Also deflex/reflex bows are one of the sweetest shooting designs out there when done correctly.
I've made plenty of bows from heavily reflexed staves and trust me it isn't always good news.
If I had to make a fast bow I would choose a stave with 1 - 2 inches max reflex.
mikekeswick, I haven't used steam yet but have done quite a bit of heat bending. Would you recommend I give steam a try on this one? I've read enough about the steaming process that it shouldn't be hard to setup on my woodstove this time of year.
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ooh oooh oooh I know you are going to make a fine bow out of it. lol. Dont know how good my advice is for ya But If I had a stave like that considering it is mulbery and the compresion propertys are not as good as osage I would keep it as wide as you can deflex the Handle bring thouse tipe to maybe only 2 inches behind handle even out the reflex maybe so it is not mostly all down in the lower 1/3 of limbs back it with rawhide and start scraping and see what she is made of. I think you can get a fine hard hitting bow out of it as long as you dont over stress it. good Luck hope it works out good for ya.
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I usaully use steam to bend wood.
It works better for me on thick sections or extreme bends. The handle area is the thickest section...
I dont know where I learned this but it works the best of any of the methods ive tried...
You will need water, heavy duty foil and rags or sturdy paper towels...
Wrap the area to be bent in the rags, soak em good under the facet.
Then wrap the foil around the rags. Leave the foil a bit loose.
Pour some extra water down there.
If ya want you can tape up the ends for a good seal.
Place over you heat source for 30min or so. There should be just a lil steam rising from gaps in the foil.
USE gloves, quickly peel off the foil and rags.
Place on form or whatever ya use, leave overnight.
Works wonders for me. Sorta a boil/steam combo.
I have had mixed results with steaming over a pot. Given you are bending a localized area you dont need to steam the whole thing either.
Btw, Ive used this method many times to tame reflex in Vinemaple. If cut right it often has 10 inches of reflex...
Feel free to ask if ya have any questions.
I might be able to do a build along, I'm sure Ive got some wood in need of bending...
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sharpened60, I'm assuming that I'll need to bend at least 12", is that correct?
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No, you wont need that much bend. Only a few inches.
The tips will move a good deal. Think if it sorta like a lever.
Lets say you have 6" of reflex.
If you move the center 6" you will have the D/R shape and zero "net reflex". The center of the bow will be even with the tips.
Lets say you move the center 4" you will have a less pronounced D/R shape but the tips will be resting 2" past the handle. So you would have 2" 'net reflex' so to speak.
This explanation is overly simplified. In reality the tips move more than you might expect. How much all depends on how long your limbs (levers) are, where the fulcrum is etc.
I honestly dont measure much when I build a bow. I would heat the wood, toss it on the form, keep cranking down the clamp until I like where the tips are in relation to the center of the handle. Something like 2" forward of the handle. Having never worked mullberry I'm not sure how much 'bounce back' to expect.
I deflexed a 54" vine maple just last week. Its now a static recurve, also a juniper with 9" reflex the week prior. I can show you how it looks on my form if you need a visual.
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Yes I would us steam on this one. ! hour per inch of hickness regarding heating times.
Good luck with it - it will teach you some lessons anyway....
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The weather is turning cold tonight so the wood stove will be cranked up. I'm thinking this will work. Will it hurt to steam this large of a section of the stave?
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I just went through this thread again and Blackhawk had a decent suggestion.
Lay out your design first.
Length, width etc. Don't cut anything though, If you had a ton of excess perhaps, but you dont....
The reflex may not be unmanageable by that point, you may have to steam very little or none at all.
A note on steaming...
I have found that steaming in foil is very efficient and seems to take half the time of boiling over a pot. The heat and moisture is localized, circulating around the wood. It is almost like boiling. You must take care not to boil the all the water out. If you do, for a few minutes, you will probably be okay but you wont wanna scorch the wood or dry it so much you cause checking...
When steaming over a pot the water vapor passes over the wood and out the lid, having minimal contact with the wood itself. Taking much more water, energy and time to achieve the same result.
However nearly every one has their own little tips, tricks and preferences. There are many bowyers here with more experience than I, this is just what works for me. My recommendation in regards to anything bowyery, is to dive right in. At very least you will learn what works, what you like or dont like.
There will always be another piece of wood.
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I was typing that last post when you posted a picture of the pot.
Since your gonna be running the wood stove anyway, use it. However, you'll want a decent rolling boil. Start you timer once you have a noticeable amount of water vapor pouring out.
You can steam the whole darn thing if ya want.
The only danger could be checking. I would wager you'll be okay in that regard.
I cant imagine its drier than where I am currently at, I have had only minor issues.
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I'm going to give it a go tonight. I have more mulberry from a tree that I felled just a few months ago but none of the remainder shows this much reflex although they were drying in a different area of the shop.
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"Experiment stave."
If I had that I would steam it somewhat straighter then just leave it after tying it to some straight. With that much bend it would probably break when you first try to put a loose string on it.
...if I had that.
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Well the works begun and it's hotter than a two peckered billygoat in this little cabin.
Looking at the stave on the pot I may have already come up with a name for this one but any suggestions would be considered and appreciated.
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How about the two peckered billy goat?
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He's cooled down a little now. It's 38 outdoors and suppose to get to 28 by morning but it was over 90 in here. I had to turn on the A/C and it's still running.
I do need to work on my form for this type of work. Never used steam before and was amazed how easy this wood bent after 1 1/2 hrs on the pot.
After I get the bugs worked out and purchase a few more clamps I'll try to even this up a little more. Must say I'm impressed and thanks to all of you for your input.
We'll see what it looks like in the morning.
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That Sir, is exactly what you should have done. And it looks almost exactly in profile like my mulberry with sapwood I was telling you about. Looks perfect man.
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Thats looking good,very nice so far. :)
Pappy
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Much much better now.
Reflex/deflex bows are among the sweetest shooting designs out there.
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Looks good.
Make sure you let it dry out some before you start bending.
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Thanks again guys. This might turn into a build along for me and possibly some other newbies to building selfbows.
I left her in the rack, for I was gone all day long and saw no sense in getting in a hurry.
This stave still even looks wet to me. I've got other projects and was wondering if it would harm anything leaving it clamped down through the weekend?
Tomorrow is a free day for me and was thinking of either spending a little more time with the Koperski stave or my hopefully go-to Osage takedown bow. They both need some long string work and finesse. >>>----> Fred
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No harm in leaving it on the form.