Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Fred Arnold on August 24, 2012, 12:23:46 am
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64" x 4 1/4" x 2 1/8" large end and 5" x 1 1/2" small end. Just cut today and this is the second section from the trunk end. I ended up with 4 from the trunk and think I can squeeze 1 more. This section produced 3 fantastic looking staves and also ended up with very good possibilities from section #3 and one 2 1/2" diameter branch that measures 80+.
The Koperski tree is named after my neighbors 1 mile west of me. When I moved up here I did';t know anyone and they stepped up to the plate and showed me their kindness. A man couldn't ask for better Friends.
This stave after it's worked it's magic is going to be a Christmas present for daughter Amy. So I'm going to need some help.
I'm figuring a 35#@ 25 should fit her. She's very athletic. Participates in BB, VB, track. She's just a little gal but pretty tough. When her horse threw her last fall and damaged her shoulder she was back on top again before the week was over.
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Great story, nice lookin bit of timber.
Del
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Is that Black Walnut?
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Is that Black Walnut?
I was thinking that... I did eye that osage in the background,... ;).
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It is black walnut and the other staves are from a mulberry. I should have taken more pics yesterday but my butt was dragging so I'll snap some more today.
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Black walnut is my nemesis wood >:(....jus sayin ...cus I'm 0 for 2 with it. :P
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blackhawk, since you're 0 for 2 and have a lot more experience than this old boy, what can I expect and is there anything in particular I should take into consideration when laying out the bow design?
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Long and wide wins the day on wood like walnut.
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Fred...both were soft in compression,even tho one stave was from pennsylvania and the other from michigan.
Lemme explain what happened to both. And both were long and wide(almost 70" long)and both only tillered to 26".
The first was a stave. I tillered it out perfectly and had 1/4" positive tiller. After two dozen shots the top limb went bannannas and compressed way more than the bottom limb and it turned into 7/8" positive tiller. I then decided to correct it by reducing the bottom limb,and once I had it looking good again,I went and continued to shoot it in again,and low and behold now the bottom limb went bannannas on me. By then it wood have taken off too much weight for me to want it for anything so I said ,eff it.
The second was a hicory backed walnut from an air dried board. I trapped the hickory very narrow,and made the walnut belly wide. Tiller was perfect and I was within reason according to the mass formula(just a tad under target mass,but nothing to worry about). After 50 shots it fretted in one area on the bottom limb. That bow was smokin fast too,I mean fast for my bows.
So my anaylsis so far is its weak compression wood. And I don't want to drag a 70"+ wide paddle bow around. But ,I think I just had some bad luck and maybe not so dense pieces of wood. And I'm not done with it. Ill try it one more time eventually. But,I'm a three strikes and your out person and if it doesn't make it or is just a marginal bow then I won't ever mess with it again. I'm osage n yew rich so why mess with it. ;)
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PD, will 64" be long enough? I can get all the width needed but because of knots and twist the staves will only produce 64" to 68" in length. I'd like to make at least one for each of my 2 sons and 1 for me and our draw lengths are between 28 and 29 1/2".
Also can I put these inside the building on a rack with the bark on or should I get it off now?
Blackhawk, Your message came in while I was replying to Pearl Drums. Did you heat treat the belly and if not do you know if anyone has had any success with the procedure on walnut?
I'm adding a pick of an end without the sealer on it to see what you guys think.
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That high crowned back wont hurt a thing, thats for sure.
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My experiences with walnut are a little different than some. I have yet to have one hold together with a high crown when using all heartwood. Sapwood seems to be a little more forgiving of crown but not much. As far as heat treating the belly goes, it just makes the wood brittle in my experience. Josh
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That was a sweet little walnut bow you had at the Classic this year Josh.
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So I'm taking that no matter what design used that walnut just isn't deemed by any of you to be good bow making material. Is that right?
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No sir. You will never hear me say anything to that effect about black walnut. I absolutely love black walnut as a bow wood. All I'm saying is that you have to work within its limits. I guess the same could be said for any bow wood, but you probably get the point. Black walnut will take a little more set than most woods, however its pretty light and has a pretty low hysteresis level so it will still be quite snappy even with a couple inches of set. If you want to, you can look up my shorty that I made last fall. Its in the November bow of the month line up from last year. That should give you an idea of what walnut is capable of. That bow is my go to bow for everything and has not lost a bit after thousands of shots. You have some fine bow wood there sir. Enjoy it, Josh
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I enjoy working with walnut, it is not as forgiving as some woods but it is very beautiful ....as far as gun docs short walnut it was neck and neck with my osage shorty on a 3dfew shoot we did...probably faster! But a lot of that is in the way its built
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Gun Doc, that's a beauty. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I've had some problems using the search engine here and most of the time end up finding very little related to what I'm researching.
Being that walnut seems weak in compression, would it be best to flatten the belly and trapping the back?
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Walnut is actually pretty well balanced as a self bow. Providing that you have a flat back an d a flat belly. The only way that I would trap it is with a hard backing such as white oak, hickory or something similar to those. On a pyramid style stiff handle bow, I usually go with about 2" wide at the fades for a few inches and straight taper to the tips. Make sure the working limb is draw length + 1" and take your time. If you go with a soft backing such as rawhide, linen, silk or whatever, the crown will no longer be a concern. The hardest thing for me with walnut is chasing sapwood rings. They are just plain hard to see. If you have to do that, have good lighting and a wet rag handy. If you lose sight of the ring, just wipe it with the wet rag and the grain will show up better. Josh
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Josh, I shouldn't have to chase rings unless I choose to incorporate the heartwood to show in the back which I'm not going to attempt on the first few at least. The bark stripped off in long strands which made things easy with no damage to the sapwood. I wished the mulberry would have been as easy.
From what I'm hearing and seeing in my research lends me to believe that a D bow is pretty much out of the question. Is that your consensus also?
Being new to bowmaking leaves me somewhat reluctant to try anything that hasn't worked for others with more experience.
Besides the pyramid design that you refer to, are there any other alternative styles that you would recommend, such as Molly or ELB?
I have processed deer back sinew, elk leg sinew, and both deer and kangaroo rawhide that I traded for. All of your suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Fred
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Using the sapwood under the bark is a good idea to start out with. Elb wouldn't be a good design for walnut, however I have made quite a few NA style d-bows and halfeye has made a few very impressive mollys with quartersawn walnut. If you want to make a d-bow, it needs to be a little wider. I make them 1 1/2" wide for the center section for about a foot down both limbs and then straight taper to the tips. I have had good luck with this design up to 50# draw. I hop this helps, Josh
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I think it would work better for me for the first one anyway. Is the NA style much different than Torges refers to in "Hunting The Osage Bow"? I'd better dig out the TBB's.
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Well I honestly don't know! I don't have that book yet. Its been on my acquisition list for years, but I just haven't got it yet. The NA style bow in my opinion, is the epitome of efficiency. It is easy to make, easy to tiller and they just don't require much wood to produce a very effective weapon. I really like the way they handle and shoot. I'm looking forward to seeing what you make out of those staves. BTW Ive been all over NE, what part of the state does Munson creek run through? Josh
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Munson Creek is not very long or wide. I doubt if it's even on a map. I've never been to the source where it begins but was told by Alan K that it starts less than couple of miles south of me. Probably covers around 6 miles of winding waterway through the hills before it enters my property from the northwest picking up volume from the underground springs and traversing possibly another 6 miles before feeding into the Loup River.
Elba is located 35 miles NW of Grand Island or 34 N of Wood River on Hwy 11. I'm located 3 mi. NW of Elba as the land rises into the hills out of the river valley.
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I reduced the stave with the bandsaw and then cleaned it up a bit with the drawknife to get a feel for the grain and what I have to work with. The handle section remains 2"+ and the fades 2 1/2"+. I'm going to have to remove a lot of wood yet from the belly. After removing 1 1/2" from the limb to get rid of a knot, length is less than I desired at 62 1/2".
I will also have to set some type of hot box up in order to ever get a bow by Christmas. The stave weighs 5 lbs. 4.6 oz.
Encountered a couple of trouble spots that I could use help with so I'd appreciate your input.
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I've certainly traveled that area. I've even caught some really nice channel cats out of the North loup. Albeit, that was 15 years ago and upstream from you at Brewster. Nice country and even nicer people.
I should probably be more clear about 'taking your time with walnut' . Walnut is a wood that has to be slowly trained to bend. Take your time while tillering it. Slowly pull it a bit and slowly lower it. Do that several times and then slowly pull it a bit further. If you keep working it gently like that throughout the tillering process you will have less set and a much better bow in general. However, if you approach walnut like Riki Tiki Tavi on crack, it will not respond well. I had a habit of doing that and ruined a lot of beautiful staves before I figured it out. If you have any questions feel free ask, if I can't answer em, there is always somebody else on here who can. Josh
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I must of been typing when you put those pics up. 62 1/2" is doable for 29" draw, but just barely. Your tiller will need to be a spot on full compass (arc of circle) and if you make pin nocks you will only lose 1 1/2 inches of length. The big knot straight in from the belly wouldn't concern me much. Just make sure there's no rotten core in the hole when you tiller. It may even be eliminated by floor tiller stage. The one with the grease pencil in it might be a problem. How far from the end of the stave is it and how thick is the wood between the knot and the back of the bow? As far as drying goes, if you cut your bow to shape(leave a 1/4" of extra wood all the way down both sides) and then floor tiller It, it should be ready to take down to final dimensions and tiller in about six weeks. Especially given the climate where you live, it'll dry pretty quick. Josh
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Well I got a call from the locker last night and they must be behind and wanting to catch up before deer season begins. I'll be back to work 2 or 3 days a week until Nov. 10th and then full boar until all of the seasons deer are processed.
I removed some more wood to get closer to final dimensions an will likely let it rest until Thursday when I have more time. Weighed it before I went to bed at 3 lbs 15.5 oz and again this morning at 4:30 and it had lost 2 .1 oz. Limbs are still 2"+ wide for 12" tapering to 3/4" at the tips, and 1"+ in thickness throughout so still have some rasping to do.
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Thats looking pretty nice. I thought you were going for a simple eastern NA bow, but thats actually a better design that your using for walnut. Getting the fades right on a narrowed handle d- bow can be a little finicky, but worth the effort. Try to keep at least 2" width at the fades if you can. I'm looking forward to watching your progress. Josh
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Had a little break the last couple days and decided to put a little more time in on this stave. I left the depth on the tips for 8" because I don't know how to proceed or even where I'm heading with this bow at this point. I've never worked with flat limbs so it has me a bit confused.
I've reduced the limbs to 1/2" in depth and this walnut still won't budge when I check floor tiller.The handle and fades taper to the 1/2" about 4 1/2" from the fade and remain constant until they approach 8" before the tips.
I may be surprised and change my mind later but at this time I don't really care for the flat wide limb design. There may be a bunch of black walnut on the trade blanket in the near future.
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I can understand your frustration. There is a reason that you don't see all that many unbacked bendy handle paddle bows posted. Its not an easy design to get tillered correctly. Especially when just starting. A simple eastern woodland bow would be much easier to start with. That being said, with enough patience and asking enough questions, you should be able to make a good bow out of that. You mentioned that you were a bit confused. Could you be a bit more specific? I'm not sure which part of this build that your unsure of. Just so we're on the same page, here's some pics of a black walnut eastern woodland d-bow. These are very easy to make. Josh
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I had some time yesterday and determined that this bow wood was due a bit of attention. Finally have enough wood removed that it's starting to bend. Only one problem area that I wanted some advice on before proceeding further.
Here's a picture of the knot before and after cleaning it out. I feel like it will need to be plugged and wanted your opinions and advice.
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If it is not a bend in the handle bow ,where that is at shouldn't cause any problem,shouldn't bend there or you will have more problems than the knot. :)
Pappy
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Fred, that is coming along quite nicely. If you are still shooting for 29" of draw, the handle will need to be working. That means that you will have to plug that hole. Not a problem. You would be well advised to use a piece of heartwood for your plug as it has a little better compression strength than sapwood. Also, when cutting your plug to fit, be sure the grain of the plug is running the same direction as the grain of the bow. Most woods have far better compression resistance than crush resistance. By crush I mean putting pressure perpendicular to the grain as opposed to pressure in line with the grain. Make sure that you have as near perfect fit as you can to get the best glue line. Glue in your plug and lightly clamp in place. After a couple days remove the clamp, check your glue lines, if all are good continue tillering. Keep in mind that you will have to be careful working around the repair or you might end up with tear outs. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress. Josh
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It shouldn't bend in the handle but the flaw is at the taper from the fade to bending limb. I think I'd better plug it. Radial or triangular plug. A 1/2" hardwood dowel could be worked in and filed and sanded after curing.
Or I can do a cutout then cut and file a triangular plug close to matching the grain.
I have 2 ton epoxy, MT-13, and Urac 185.
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I think I confused myself. I was under the impression that this bow was for you or your sons. I went back and read the whole thread and figured out that this is for your daughter. So having established that and figuring for a 25" draw as opposed to 29" draw, any plug should do the trick as there is no need for the handle to bend. Sorry about the confusion, it seems to happen to me more and more as time passes. I would definitely use a rounded plug as opposed to a triangle shaped one. Any of those glues will work fine. Josh
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Originally intended for a good friends daughter, young Ms. Koperski. But with no more experience than I have, midway through the project it became a bow to get completed. If and when I get this one finished there is a much nicer stave from the other side that I'll dedicate . This is all fairly new to me and I'd prefer to have one under my belt and a little more confidence before designating a bow to Amy. This one is going to have to pull to 28 1/2. If it fails so be it.
I haven't had a lot of time but think I've learned something and it's been rewarding and fun.
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Ok then, that being the case, you will definitely want the handle to bend. Otherwise you are just asking too much from the wood. You have put a lot of work into it so far, so why not get the most from it? With that part working, you will want the grain of the plug to be running in the same direction as the rest of the wood. When you tiller it save the handle and fades to the last. When you get the limbs bending evenly out to 25" of draw at your desired draw weight, that's when you start getting first the fades and then the handle itself bending. The handle is narrower so it will have to be thicker than the limbs to avoid a hinge there, so take your time. Also, since the handle is narrower, you have less wood surface to spread out the load, so you don't want as much bend in the handle as the limbs are bending. You should just start to feel the handle bend in your bow hand at about 26" of draw. Josh