Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Weylin on August 12, 2012, 04:53:36 am
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I'm tackling my first osage bow and I need a little advice from the experts on yella wood. I've got a ring chased (gah! what a workout :o) and the main thing I'm concerned about are a couple of bug holes in the middle of the stave. Are they something that I can fill with sawdust and superglue like a knot and go along my merry way or do I need to give them more consideration? The stave is 72" long and pretty clean aside from a few pin knots and a slight crack running vertically in the middle of the back in one little spot. The bug holes are about 30" from one end so if I was making a longer bow using the majority of the stave they'd likely be just out of the fades on one limb (probably not the best place for them.) if I made the bow closer to 60" and lopped off the other end of the stave I could put those bug holes in the handle so they wouldn't effect the bow. My draw length is only 26" so I have some wiggle room, it just depends on what style of bow I'd like to make (which I'm not sure about yet :-\).
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5850.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5853.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5855.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5857.jpg)
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I'd put them (holes) in the handle area, fill 'em and forget 'em and make the bow. Good piece of wood - have fun. Bob
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Put them in the handle area and you will be fine. Dean
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That's a nice osage stave! Will make a fine bow.
I'd cut the stave to 64" which is plenty for your 26" draw. Then the holes will be in the handle or just in the fade. The fade-out won't bend anyway, so they won't cause any problems. Clean them up a bit and fill them with some glue/sawdust mix. Just make sure you cut the stave from the right end...
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Thanks for the advice. :) Now I have to decide what style to go for. The two on the top of my list are a working recurve or a molle. I haven't made either of those yet and I'd like to give them a try. Any thoughts on what would work best for this stave.
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I like the look of those rings a lot. Great early/late wood ratio on every ring.
How many rings deep do you think those buggers went with their mining claim? You might be able to chase down under them and not have to worry. I know you are happy to get more experience chasing rings on 'sage. >:D
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I just measured the big hole and it goes down about a 1/2". >:( I think it's possible that I could chase down that far and still have a decent bow to make from this stave but it would really start to limit my limb width at that point. Given that combined with my enthusiasm (or lack thereof) to chase another ring on this stave I'm leaning towards trying to place the bug holes in the handle. I measured the bow out at 64" and if I offset the handle by 2" like I normally do I can still put the bug holes in the handle section. would 64 inches be long enough for a mollegabet with a 26"draw?
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I'm no expert, but have made a couple of shootable mollies. It would probably depend on your ratio of working limbs and levers. I have a 27" draw and made mine 66" ttt and 64 n2n with a 4" handle, 2" fades, 16" working limbs, and 11" levers. The hard maple is still shooting well. Osage should give you more flexibility. I used Adam's hbo build a long as a guide at this link.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=5129.0 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=5129.0)
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Don't take much 'sage to make a bow, Weylin! >:D
But since I got no dog in this fight, you do what you feel comfortable with doing! Either way, I am sure you will knock this one outa the park.
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Most of my osage staves have borers. You can fill the holes with epoxy and sawdust, I've done it even in the working part of the limb or on the limb edge. I even made one bow with a borer hole clear through the limb and left it open. However, if there's enough stave depth I always go down to a clear ring, No sense tempting Murphy.
Good luck,
George
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Thanks for the sage advice, fellas. I've decided to shorten the stave to 64" which places the borer holes in the handle. I packed them with sawdust and superglue. I'm thinking I'd like to go for a mollegabet design. I'm following some dimensions that Half Eye posted a while back in this thread, http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,17521.0.html
I hear he know's his way around a molle. ;)
I was inspired by Blackhawk's Three Eyed Molly that he posted a while back. I may try to design it with that in mind as well. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,32585.msg430900.html#msg430900
But this being my first osage and my first molle I'm definitely open to advice and input. (well, I'm open to it regardless, but you know what I mean.)
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You are right. I couldn't lay my hands on Half Eye's Molle posts right away, but he has done a number of them with great success. I think Ken75 has done some, too!!
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One question I have at this point while I'm laying out my bow on the stave is about the limb lengths. When I make a normal longbow my top limb is 2 inches longer than the bottom limb. I laid out this molle the same way out of habit and because of the placement of the bug holes. Is it acceptable to have a difference in limb length on a molle or should I make them the same?
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As I peruse the various molle's on the site I see that many have already done the offset handle. I guess that answers my question, at least good enough for me. I'm going to start roughing her out and see where it goes from there.
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Cool Thread and nice Stave...
I admit that I caught the Molle Bug about a month or two ago as well.
And used Half Eye's and Blackhawk's dimensions and builds as reference when laying out my Osage Molle.
Shooting her in and refining the levers now, should be finishing it up in the next week or so if I don't have to back her.
Looking forward to seeing your progress.
-gus
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Thanks Gus. I'm getting really excited about mine. I have it strung and at a normal brace. the tiller is looking good so far but it's still pretty stout. The levers still need some work to get them nice and skinny. Blackhawk's been helping me out with some dimensions. Unfortunately I have to take a break from the bow for a week or so while I finish up (read as start) my Master's thesis. It's torture because the bow is getting to the most exciting part of the process and it's just sitting there staring at me, begging me to tiller it to full draw. Maybe I'll heat in the reflex that I was going to add and then I'll have to leave it alone for a while. :-\
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Haha...
I hear ya Weylin... Too bad you couldn't work "Tillering The Wooden Bow" into your Master's Thesis... >:D
How narrow are you gonna shoot for on your levers?
My levers are a tad over a 1/2 inch now, with a semi Octagonal cross section.
And they are about 9/16 inch thick.
-gus
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Weylin, glad to see you got that thing to brace., sounds like it has come a long way since I saw it last week. Looking forward to seeing it finished. So you are going to start and finish your thesis in a week? Whatever you do, make it quick so we can see some finished pics of this bow! ;)
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I heated some reflex into it tonight. it ended up being a little more than I had intended, about 3". I hope it's not too much, I know this design is under a fair amount of strain already. Maybe some of it will pull out anyway. If nothing else heating up the limbs like that will keep my hands off it for a couple days so I can get my papers done.
CMB, I was up at Wylden's on sunday doing a sweat lodge and working on bows. I got a lot done on this guy out there. Man, that sweat lodge kicked my @$$. I'm not sure I'm cut out for that business, that was a long, hot 2 1/2 hours.
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That looks like a nice east Osage stave to start chasing rings on
-Billy
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Well. I've got it bending. My eye is not used to looking at a molle bending so I'm not sure if I like it or not. Please give me your opinion of the tiller. At rest it has about 1 3/4" reflex which goes down to about 1 1/4" after being worked. Because I'm me, the bow is upside down in all of the pictures. ::) keep that in mind because the top limb is 2" longer than the bottom limb (but opposite in the pics) I've looked through a bunch of Molle full draw pics on the site here and have noticed some variation in tiller shape. Some seem to bend more near the handle and others seem to have a more even bend through the working area. Any advice is welcome.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5868.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5870.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5872.jpg)
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upper limb looking a tad stiff
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Doesn't look half bad! You'll be fine. I agree that the upper limb in the pictures appears a bit stiff.
I personally think a limb length difference of 2" is a bit too much. It'll make tillering nuisance. You could cut off one inch of tip length from the longer limb maybe?
I also spot some redundant wood past the string groove in the lower limb. This wood is basically just dead weight. It's fine for now, but as soon as you want to start shooting in this bow, you'd better remove this wood since it'll influence her shooting behaviour.
The stiff levers also appears massive. How wide are they? I can only judge the thickness from the pictures, but they appear too thick. Again, this is not a problem for now, but a mollegabet benefits the most from well balanced tips. Excess tip weight negates any of the typical benefits you would expect from a molly.
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Yup get that upper limb loosened up. The best bend distribution for a molly is to get it bending evenly from fade of the hanlde to the fade of the lever. Some peole get stuck getting most of there bend by the fade of the handle,which is a big no no with this design. Osage can take that but any other wood won't and will fret and end up taking more set,and ends up having a bunch of dead moving mass. In my opinion mollys are easy to tiller cus you only have a really short working limb length to scrape and tiller,and you just make the working limbs look like arcs of a circle making sure it bends the same amount thru out the whole working limb.
And now that you know where your string tracking lays you can glue some tip overlays on and make a reduction in your levers.
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Thanks for the input, Bryce, Darksoul and Blackhawk. Since the top limb in the picture is really the bottom limb on the bow ::) and it is shorter it should appear a bit stiffer. Now that I think about how I layout my bows it is really only an inch difference in the length, not 2, my mind was playing tricks on me. Right now when I measure the string from the belly at brace there is about a 1/8" difference which is what I was taught that it should be. I feel like i need to be careful because my tendency is to make the lower limb too weak given its relative shortness.
As for the levers and tips, don't have them worked down all the way yet. I plan to have them as tiny as possible and still keep them safe. right now they are about 7/8" thick and 1/2" wide, still too bulky for shooting but fine for tillering the working limbs. Sorry, I feel like I'm making excuses for all of your advice, I try not to be that guy.
I'll loosen up the top limb in the picture a bit and pull her a little further and see how she looks. And I'll start reducing those levers. The string is tracking almost perfectly down the levers and the handle. I've marked the side of each lever to leave alone and I think I can correct the minuscule discrepancy in alignment by reducing the levers only on one side.
Thanks
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I braced the bow tonight and started bending it a little and I heard a tick. I cursed, unstrung it immediately and found the culprit. >:( It's a splinter on the back of the bow about 2 1/2" below the fade on the bottom limb. it is 3/8" across and 1" long. I lightly traced it with a pencil so it would be visible in the picture. Is this something that I can safely fix or this bow done? Any advice would be most welcome.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN5874.jpg)
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Super thin super glue and a sinew wrap is it's best hope at this point. The regular gel type glue will not wick down deep enough, you gotta use the super thin stuff. And give it several applications until you are more than sure that the crack has been filled.
Looking at the crack, I cannot understand just what allowed the Imps of Destruction a fingerhold on that limb. Your back looked good and clean! Dang those Imps.
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Rawhide is the only sure answer. You will never hear from the back again if you apply it.
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Hmm, superglue and sinew or rawhide... I have some sinew, not sure how much I'll need to wrap that up well enough. I'd have to buy some rawhide or trade for it. It needs to be thinner stuff like goat or deer, correct?
what do you use to glue the rawhide down with? I have some hide glue and also some TB3.
I was hoping to decorate the back so I'm trying to figure out which of these methods will interfere less with the drawings. I'm not a fan of how rawhide on a bow looks but I guess I could just draw/paint right over the rawhide. Ultimately I need to go with whatever makes the crack safer because there's not much point in decorating a broken bow.
Are there any other pros and cons of these two methods that I'm not considering? This is uncharted territory for me. I've never tried to repair a crack before.
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Hide glue, TB 1-2-3, or elmer's wood glue will work with the rawhide.
As for sinew wrap, about half of a backstrap sinew would do the job.
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I highly recomend rawhide backing just the working limbs and not out onto the levers,because that's such a high stress design that I wouldn't want any other splinters(or worse things)popping loose. Super glue,wrap,then rawhide back,then continue tillering.
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so I should glue it, sinew wrap it and rawhide back it? or is the sinew superfluous if I glue it and rawhide back it? Thanks for taking to time to answer my nit-picky questions. Now to find some rawhide. I'll check the scrap bin at the local leather store first, because I'm a tightwad.
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Local leather store like Tandy will drain your 401K for half a rabbit hide! We have a guy that advertises in the classifieds right here that sells incredible quality antelope rawhide (and braintan). He gets something like $40 for a dressed hide plus shipping. Enough to do at least 6 bows.
His name is Michael Foltmer and he is out of Colorado. Go check the classifieds for his contact information. He's a great guy. Ask BeetleBailey if the hides are any good, I just sent him one.
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My opinion is that the crack is tiny and simply glueing it down with super glue, then adding rawhide will hold just fine. A wrap may be overkill. Rawhide will hold a splinter down even after it pops and pushes up on the rawhide. Its very durable stuff and the layer of TBIII will help.
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That sounds good PD. I wasn't looking forward to using up my little bit of sinew that I had been saving for arrow fletching. Gus is sending me some roo rawhide for the back, thin and tough from what I hear and I will put it down with tb3.
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I have used Gus' roodhide, sweet stuff.
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Ok, I received Gus's rawhide in the mail. (thanks Gus! :D) I've got my crack all glued up with some thin superglue and I'm ready to back it with the rawhide. I read the section of tbbI about rawhide backing so I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of what I'n going to do. I have just a couple questions. Is it necessary to wrap the glued hide with an ace-bandage or equivalent or can it be done well without being wrapped? If I do wrap it how do you keep the bandage from getting glued to the bow in places where there might be excess glue? the rawhide is a little bit wider than the limbs and I know I will trim it down to fit when it's dry but when the glue is wet and the bow is wrapped up, how do you keep the excess rawhide on the side from sticking to the sides of the limb?
Maybe I'm over thinking all of this and the answer to all of these questions is just to make sure I don't have excess glue coming out the sides but I thought I'd ask and see if there are easy answers.
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Ok, I received Gus's rawhide in the mail. (thanks Gus! :D) I've got my crack all glued up with some thin superglue and I'm ready to back it with the rawhide. I read the section of tbbI about rawhide backing so I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of what I'n going to do. I have just a couple questions. Is it necessary to wrap the glued hide with an ace-bandage or equivalent or can it be done well without being wrapped? If I do wrap it how do you keep the bandage from getting glued to the bow in places where there might be excess glue? the rawhide is a little bit wider than the limbs and I know I will trim it down to fit when it's dry but when the glue is wet and the bow is wrapped up, how do you keep the excess rawhide on the side from sticking to the sides of the limb?
Maybe I'm over thinking all of this and the answer to all of these questions is just to make sure I don't have excess glue coming out the sides but I thought I'd ask and see if there are easy answers.
As you wrap, use a damp sponge or washcloth to wipe off excess glue. Even then you will have a bit of bandage that sticks. My Ace bandages are nasty messes from all the glue'ups they have soaked in. Prolly time to retire 'em and get new.
The rawhide may dry faster than the glue sets, sometimes an edge will start to curl and shrink. The wrap is good insurance. I usually take my wraps off after just an hour. Then I wipe down the rawhide with a soaking wet sponge to re-hydrate the rawhide. It plumps the hide again so it loses the texture of the Ace wraps. I don't like the pattern the wraps leave in the rawhide. But by this time the TBII or III has plenty of time to set up, though not fully cured. TBII or III resists re-wetting unlike the rawhide.
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Here is my rawhide method: Size the back of the bow with a thin layer of TBIII and let it cure over night. Saok your strips for about 5 minutes while you apply another light, but complete coating of TBIII. Get most of the water out of the rawhide and apply it. Lightly rub air bubble out and align the rawhide. When you wrap the Ace bandages you can either add a little tension and give the rawhide a cool pattern, or wrap very lightly and leave it smooth. Both look sweet. Wait about 3-4 hours and unwrap the bow. Carefully trim the edges close and let it cure over night. Take a 80 grit sanding block and clean up the edges. Wait another 24 hours to be sure all the TBIII underneath is cured and all the moisture is gone. Thats where the sizing the back pays off, less moisture is introduced to the bow itself.
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Glad the Rawhide made it Weylin... its my pleasure. :)
I do have a question for you though, as I'm building an Osage Molly as well... ::)
When you chased a ring for the back did you leave your pins and knots proud as normal?
Or do you shave them flat with the back before backing with the rawhide?
Thank You!
-gus
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@Gus, I've got them down to the same growth ring if that's what you mean. This is my first osage bow and my first backing so I bet your guess is better than mine on that one. ;)
So I sized the back with tb3 and then glued the rawhide down, wrapping it with cloth. i think it turned out pretty nice. I've got the edges cleaned up. How long do I need to wait before I start tillering it again?
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I hear ya Weylin,
I had the pins worked down normal, leaving them sticking up above the rest of the back.
Chased down like you mentioned. I was just wondering if I could file them flush under the rawhide.
But impatience took over and I left them alone and just sized the bow last night.
I re heat treated the bow Thursday and took out a bit of string follow to get the pre rawhide side profile I want.
Then I sized it last night.
Gonna glue the rawhide down today.
I'm planning on giving the TB III and rawhide 48 hours to fully cure before I bend the bow.
I will be adding Black Rat Skin over the Roo Rawhide Tuesday or Wednesday before I begin checking post rawhide tiller.
-gus
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The tiller wont change a pinch after rawhide is added.
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I just wasn't quite finished tillering the bow. I need to go about 5 more inches before I get to full draw. So I guess what I meant was how long should I wait before I pull the bow. Today it had been curing for 48 hours so I started pulling it. The rawhide's staying put, so that's a good sign. ;) I'll hopefully get it tillered to full draw soon. Just need to finish that dang paper first. ::)
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I'm getting close to finished on this bow. I think I've tamed all the nasty cracks. I've put about 100 arrows through it so far and I like how it's shooting. I'm getting excited about how it's going to look but I'm not done prettying it up yet. Here's a pic of me drawing it.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/saleitems201111.jpg)
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Looking pretty good...here's me just nitpicking cus I'm anal and if it were mine id take some scrapes in the upper part of the working limb on the top limb...its a wee tad stiff,n not by much at all. 5-10 scrapes might do it.
Or maybe I'm seein an illusion from the top of your shades where they meet the wall?
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I see it to blackchicken, top part of the upper limb could use a couple scraps.
Weylin, this bow is fantastic! Very nice work. Love the thread wraps. I do it on most my bows. Adds color and straight up looks nice!
-Pinecone
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I gave it a few scrapes. Thanks for picking a spot that didn't have string wrapped around it! ;) I'm still busy purdying it up. I'll post some pics of it all finished. It's going to be hard not to shoot it while I'm putting on the courses of tru-oil. :-[