Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Bryce on July 12, 2012, 06:53:20 pm
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Now I know the title grabbed your attention.
For years now I've been reading arguments about "The King of Bow Wood"
And it's always between either Yew or Osage Orange. Both VERY excellent materials both in their elastic and compression strength. With some it's hands down Osage Orange. Having recently worked my first few pieces of Osage, and have been using Yew for quite awhile. I have come to my own conclusion that there is one wood that holds both of their strengths in one small thumb thick bush.
Ocean Spray!
Quite a heavy density for something so small .81 where Osage usually sits around .82
It's smooth, fast and stable has the compression strength of Yew and the elasticity of Osage.(some may disagree but these are things I have noticed)
By far my favorite bow wood is ocean spray, with Yew next in line. Just my personal preference. When you can get a 62" #50@28 bow from a 3/4 wide stick I'd say thats pretty good.
Ocean Spray as a new contender for King? I think so.
But I wanna hear from you fine Bowyer Gentlemen.
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I need to try yew wood. I'm using a lot of juniper lately and I like it... a lot! I would vote for juniper.
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I only got one piece left and that's for a friends bow or I would give yah that lol but I got some green ocean spray!
Juniper is very eleastic also very good!
But usually, NOT always needs to be backed.
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And it's always between either Yew or Osage Orange. Both VERY excellent materials both in their elastic and compression strength.
I don't know about the best "bow wood", maybe yew might be the best "selfbow wood". For example, osage is great for the working limbs, specifically the inner limbs, but not great for the outer limbs due to high density. If you use osage for the inner limbs, and utilize a lighter wood for the outer limbs, than we might be able to say that osage is the best bow wood when used as the inner working limbs or any bow abnormally compression stressed, and mulberry is a great bow wood when used for siyahs or non working levers because it is very light but strong. (even though mulberry is a good selfbow wood either way, of course.)
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I gotta agree with you Bryce (although I haven't even worked Osage yet). Ocean Spray amazes me every time I work a piece of it. Specially when a piece comes in out a little light then you heat treat it and BANG gains 20 lbs. Course only us Northwesterners are familiar with it. I'm sending my Bow trade guy an additional little stick bow of it with my main entry (he's not from here) just to spread the word about our Northwest King Bow wood. It's 48" long - 1" wide and pulls 48lbs at 24" and it was a standing dead piece that was already seasoned and check split when I cut it. I got lots more where that one came from. Any of you Osage guys want to trade me stick for stick sometime so we can compare we can work out a deal. I would never pay the huge prices I see Osage going for when I have a sea of Ocean Spray practically outside my door.
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Randman I hear yah! I just sent some to Florida to twistedlimb a man who's worked many a wood. I'm excited to hear his response.
20LBS!!!!!!! You must know what your doing I can only get around 10 or 12
I was out in the shed earlier and I folded a piece literally in half and it did not break then it just sprung back like nothing happend.
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Bryce, "Ocean Spray as a new contender for King? I think so.
But I wanna hear from you fine Bowyer Gentlemen."
Since you asked. There is no better all around wood than osage for me. Some woods are better at this and that, but the truth is osage is a serve all- utility wood that does anything any other wood will do. I made a list of woods I have used at least once. These are the woods I used to formed my opinion.
The King
Black Locust
White Ash
Hackberry
HHB
Elm
Hickory
Maple
Red Oak
And very shortly yew
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I know I just wish that ocean spray grew bigger
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Haven't used ocean spray or yew but I'm starting to love juniper
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So many great bow wood, but I always gotta figure Osage rules when it comes to wear and tear. Doesn't "ding" like other woods as badly in the field.
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In the pacific northwest.....I highly disagree! Sorry, Vine maple is so plentiful, tough, easy to locate, I CAN'T EVEN COMPARE THE TWO WOODS. (Ocean spray) Other than that I would choose Osage over Yew....except for the ease of working Yew....But that IS the reason yew is behind osage...it is NOT as tough.
VMB
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Vinemaplebows I love vine maple as well but finding a straight piece is difficult, not impossible. It has GREAT tensile strength and is quick on the draw. But as far as performance ocean spray would out perform in speed and durability.
As far as availability ocean spray is just as Plentiful. And grows relatively straight.
I was I die hard Vinemaple fan didn't even want to give ocean spray a chance but I did and was very surprised.
But love what you love! Vinemaple is great!
Has anyone seen that awesome Strunk ocean spray bow?
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ERC (Juniper) would get my vote. But finding a good piece is like finding hen's teeth.
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Yeah I'm a big Vine Maple fan too. It's much easier than Ocean Spray to season for sure. But if you take a same size stick of Ocean Spray and Vine Maple - say 1" dia. - the Ocean Spray is going to win out for sure for weight and performance. JMHO
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Randman where you located?
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Seattle. I have to go to the woods to get Vine Maple but we got Ocean spray everywhere - in heavily wooded city parks, along freeways between overpasses. I've even seen it growing as an ornamental in people's yards. Not hard to find if you just notice that bloom tassel everywhere.
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Hahahaha I can just see yah being chased down by one of your neighbors bc you cut there shrubs lol
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Oceanspray (Holodiscus Discolor?). I looked it up on the net. I live in Olympia, Washington and have seen it. Thanks for letting me know it's a bow wood - I'll have to cut some to season.
Keith
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Yep that's the one. It's awesome man hard to season though if you want to leave the bark on which I advise just bc it looks really good. You gotta cut it in winter.
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This reminds me of a bow wood conversation at MOJam where I heard Torges say "pretty much yew and osage and screw the rest."
:laugh:
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I think someone should mention about the forgiving qualities of osage orange from a bad tiller etc.Might be one reason why at these bow making seminars they're using osage orange for a beginners first bow.
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This reminds me of a bow wood conversation at MOJam where I heard Torges say "pretty much yew and osage and screw the rest."
:laugh:
Gee, did he have to suger coat it so much..? ;)
Since "kings" rule in their kingdom I would say that it is kind of a locality thing. Out here in the Middle of the Midwest "kingdom", the Hedge King rules... He is gnarly and thorny of disposition but tough,as well as prolific . :)
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keith,
Good to see you back on.. :laugh: Make sure to cut that ocean spray long! Bryce, Can't find vine maple straight, heard that before, look harder, better yet look for billets. With vine maple I really like those 1 inch diameter suckers they make some great "limb" bows. If I am after a flat bow I rarely cut anything that is not billet sized.
Brian
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Bow woods are like communists, they have no king!
Gabe
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Hey Brian! Good to see you here. Do you have Oceanspray in your patch? Ever used it? Can't trust >:D these city slickers (SEATTLE!!!) to know anything about primitive arts... :laugh:
Keith
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I fear most people form an opinion for what is the king of bow woods for the design of bows they make.
The fact is, if the design is right for the wood, the kind of wood has no bearing on the performance of the bow. This is what Tim Baker demonstrated at MOJAM years ago. Osage does well with slim outer limbs, yew has to have a rounded belly to do its best, most hardwoods do well with a narrowed back...
There are so many variables that the term "King ofbow woods" doesn't tell us anything.
I supposes we can still have a Favorite bow wood, but it may be king only to us.
Jim Davis
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VMB that's what I do is cut the 1 inch saps. And they make great bows! Never thought about billets though
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I agree with sentiment Jim, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "the kind of wood has no bearing on the performance of the bow." Look at some of Bakers best performing bows (Pecan, Maple, Oak) while these are white woods and have different design requirements than say yew or osage, they all have mechanical properties that make them good bow woods.
You don't see great self bows made of alder, balsa, hemlock, pine, or lots of tropical hardwoods for a reason: their mechanical properties don't make them suited to the stress of being bent.
Gabe
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I think the best bow wood is the wood you have. :laugh:
Honestly I can't comment to much on Osage or yew or vine maple or ocean spray because I haven't had much chance to work with any.
I really like hickory though. Probably because you can screw up and still make a bow! :o
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Since "kings" rule in their kingdom I would say that it is kind of a locality thing. Out here in the Middle of the Midwest "kingdom", the Hedge King rules... He is gnarly and thorny of disposition but tough,as well as prolific
I agree with that statement. If I lived in the Midwest and had lots of hedge, I'd probably be using that to the exclusion of everything else.
And the forgiving aspect someone mentioned about hedge is another one of the traits I love of ocean spray. You can get away with really bad tiller and still have a good shooter.
Can't trust >:D these city slickers (SEATTLE!!!) to know anything about primitive arts..
I wasn't always a city slicker I'm originally from Eastern Washington. It don't get much more primitive that that ;)
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I agree with sentiment Jim, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "the kind of wood has no bearing on the performance of the bow." Look at some of Bakers best performing bows (Pecan, Maple, Oak) while these are white woods and have different design requirements than say yew or osage, they all have mechanical properties that make them good bow woods.
You don't see great self bows made of alder, balsa, hemlock, pine, or lots of tropical hardwoods for a reason: their mechanical properties don't make them suited to the stress of being bent.
Gabe
Gabe, as usual, I wasn't clear enough and didn't limit the scope of my comment. Certainly true that many woods cannot make useful bows. What I meant was that among woods that will make a useful bow, matching the design to the wood is more important than the kind of wood.
Jim
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Keith,
It is everywhere, BUT finding a reasonable size piece, and getting it dry is another story! O:)
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I really like Vine Maple because its easy to locate dry and work and makes a great bow! But since I started working Ocean Spray I agree I really think it is becoming my favorite as well! It takes to heat very well! and is easy to make a bow out of a small diameter stave in a matter of a few hrs once dry. But drying is the tricky part! I have had ok luck with sealing the entire stave and drying very slow in a basement. One thing I have also noticed that makes it favorible to me is it takes little to no set through the entire tillering process, it is also very strong in Tension and compression. I like just about any wood that makes a bow but I will say oceans spray is probably my favorite with VM barely behind that.
Josh
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Can someone post a pic of vine maple please. I'm not sure what it looks like around here since the only ones I see online are the groomed or giant ones. And randman your forgetting scotishbroom, the ones I have now are dry through and seem fun so far. Plus the ones I put shellac on got checking on them but I'm still going to try to make a bow out of them since its not breaking and it keeps spring back at me (still a pain to work on since all I got that is sharp enough is a small knife) but I got a decent one about 1" or so thick and its not really bending. forgot to say that I didn't really find any with nothing coming off them so I got the stems and stuff on them but so far they're not hurting it and one of them looks nice with them.
(the weed for the win)
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Can someone post a pic of vine maple please.
Vine Maple
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/3be4d441.jpg)
Ocean spray leaf
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/IMAG0199.jpg)
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I'm in Vancouver BC right now, 800 miles from home. I have the opportunity to get some ocean spray while I'm here. Could someone tell me how to dry it? One or two poeple on this thread have mentioned that it's hard, but not how to go about it.
I'm also going to get some vine maple. Is there any special precautions to take?
Sorry if I'm highjacking this thread, I'm new on the computer and not sure about proper manners.
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I have found sealing the whole stave with shellac, even two coats and then drying it very slowly works 50 percent of the time :-\ if it checks you just have to hope it checks in a spot you can still get a bow out of it! Vine maple I havent had any problems with, peel the bark as soon as you get it cut and let it dry in a cool place for a week or two then reduce it down and let it dry some more. It doesnt take long to dry and make a bow from Vine Maple I have gone from green vine maple just cut to bow in just over a month with good results if you keep reducing it down as it dries.
Josh
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Yeah what Elktracker said. You can peel vine maple right away and let it dry in the round. I usually gather it while I'm camping so I peel it and rough it to shape while I'm sittin around the campfire and take it home roughed out. Just be aware that it will dry with massive reflex sometimes (make sure you use the tension - usually the upside of the branch) when you rough it out wet so you might think about strapping it to something to keep it straighter if you don't want to deal with a lot of reflex. Ocean Spray is real tough to season in the round so like Elk tracker said you can seal it or wrap it with plastic (perforated with pin holes) to slow it down and it's still 50% chance it'll check. I have had good luck band sawing it in half down to the pith and then it wont split on you but you won't have a deep handle unless it's a thick stave. Better for a bendy handle or something. If you saw it down don't leave a round handle or that's where it'll check split on you. I do have a 1 3/4" round stave that I haven't done anything to and it has been seasoning for a year so far with no splits but I keep watchin it expecting it to check but so far...good luck. When you are gathering it you can see the dead ones in the shrub (if it's a big one) and you can see how split up they get while drying. Some of them make good bows too if you can get one with a split on one side only and they are ready to work, no seasoning involved.
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Thank you, guys. I'd hate to ruin some good bow wood over a little bit of ignorance.
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im sorry, but all my readings have lead me to believe that lemonwood is the best bow wood, yet i have never used it, and have heard that it is not easy to come by...
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All I can speak towards is osage, hickory, hackberry and elm. I've worked one piece of Yew. Never even seen an Ocean Spray tree ( I thought it came in a bottle) Kansas does not lean towards alot of trees and what trees there are come in yellow. I like Osage.
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Hi Randman,
Where you originally from on the East Side? I love some of the Okanogan - especially around the Republic area. The Tamarac is gorgeous in the fall with a bit of snow on the ground. Any good bow wood on the East Side?
Hey Brian,
I went backpacking on the Olympic Penninsula a couple of weeks ago and I saw Ocean Spray EVERYWHERE. But you are right, most of it looked pretty small. I got some great photos of a pair of Peregrine Falcons feeding a young fledgling up at Point of the Arches if you are interested in seeing them.
http://www.keithandersonphotography.com/f201392164
Keith
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Bryce: "Has anyone seen that awesome Strunk ocean spray bow?"
Bryce, I am sure Strunk has made more than one ocean spray bow, so not sure if you are referring to this one I posted a while back, but here is
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,30660.0.html
Revisiting that thread reminded me I need to post a full draw pic! Soon.
I have only played around with ocean spray, but I have harvested quite a bit, and have one very promising piece coming up in the batting order. I can say that seasoning without checking is difficult. I found that roughing out the stave is best. I cut my limbs in using a drawknife to get to the pith (1 1/4" stave). I left the handle area intact. bark left on back. Sealed belly with elmer's glue. Round staves with ends sealed check check badly, though most can still make bows.
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If Witherod did not always grow in a spiral and also grew to a bigger diameter it would easily rival Yew or Osage as a bow wood
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Damn Keith thats how ya get away with it.....call them models....I like it! O:)
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If you get off the highway and into the woods the ocean spray is much taller and straighter - it has to grow up looking for light so there are less knots too. If it gets full sun it just sprouts and is useless (maybe good for shoot arrows). a big straight piece is hard to beat (but hard to keep from checking if you don't know the tricks). I haven't tried vine maple though. Sounds like I will have to now - it's getting some good reviews here.
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Those are some nice pics Bryce! I wish I had a pic of ocean spray as a whole beast to go along with those.
Marc, you could saw that about any number of woods. Big leaf maple would make great bows because it is straight as can be, but only if it was denser...but because you said that about witherod..I still need to check it out. ;)
Like Danlaw said, the ocean spray staves are in the back. I don't mind cutting ocean spray shaft shoots all day long on the side of the road though. Them some nice shoots.
If you ar new to ocean spray hunting, learn to idnetify it during summer, while in flower, then go hunt in winter when it is best to cut it (from a moisture standpoint), and you don't have to contend with all the underbrush foliage to find the big ones!
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Witherod is a very good looking wood and makes an attractive bow, the wood looks a bit like Yew in color. The one bow I made, about 12 years ago, hardly took any set. Because of the short length of billets I had to work with I made it as a primitive style take-down, was a bit noisy when drawn but it held together. Here's some pictures of the bow I made
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Witherod%20Bow/Witherodlimbs.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Witherod%20Bow/WitherodBowSide.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Witherod%20Bow/WitherodBowBraced.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Witherod%20Bow/WitherodBowDrawn.jpg)
It finished up at about 45# @ 26"
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I think you conceder it close to Osage and yew because it local to you and a good local wood. I've only built 3 ocean spray bows. And its a fine wood I liked it. But theres no way it can take the mistakes Osage can take and still make a useable bow. To someone with a few bows under their belt. It dose make a fine bow but not close to Osage, yew. Yew can't even take the mistakes Osage can take.
My worst thing I can see is it develops string follow as the years pass if it'd really shot. Far more than OSAGE would ever do. That along doesn't even put it in the running for king. Osage doesn't matter what design right or wrong just about any idiot can build a bow from it you can't say that about ocean spray.
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The way i think about it isnt how you can make mistakes with it,that says more about the maker than the wood.
Its what a skilled bowyer can make from it that counts.
That said,i would love!! a hedgerow of osage outside the window,because ill prolly need that forgiving quality ::)
/Mikael
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I think you conceder it close to Osage and yew because it local to you and a good local wood. I've only built 3 ocean spray bows. And its a fine wood I liked it. But theres no way it can take the mistakes Osage can take and still make a useable bow. To someone with a few bows under their belt. It dose make a fine bow but not close to Osage, yew. Yew can't even take the mistakes Osage can take.
My worst thing I can see is it develops string follow as the years pass if it'd really shot. Far more than OSAGE would ever do. That along doesn't even put it in the running for king. Osage doesn't matter what design right or wrong just about any idiot can build a bow from it you can't say that about ocean spray.
Non of my ocean spray bows took any string follow.
And even a bad bowyer or first timer would have an easy time making a bow from ocean spray as well as Osage. Whenever I teach someone to make a bow it's always an ocean spray stave.
My thought with this post was not to say that ocean spray is better than Osage, yew, or juniper
My thought was that ocean spray is a very over looked bow wood and deserves to be on the top shelf with all the other kings of bow wood, Yew, Juniper, Osage, Hickory, mulberry, ect.
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Bryce,
I understand your feelings, I lean tward Cascara as a bow wood "I like". Ocean spray is a very good wood, BUT does not have the abilities to be used in all bow designs, because of it's size.
Brian
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Bryce,
I understand your feelings, I lean tward Cascara as a bow wood "I like". Ocean spray is a very good wood, BUT does not have the abilities to be used in all bow designs, because of it's size.
Brian
Very true!
Just harvested my first cascara staves this last weekend. Looking forward to it.
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Hee hee this sounds like a conversation that started the first MOJam. lol!
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Ocean Spray, isn't that what they sacrificed to the Knights Who Say Ni?
This is yet another wood commonly called ironwood. We need more ironwood species after all.