Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Rich H. on May 01, 2012, 02:46:03 am
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Hello All,
I've been reading posts on this forum for a while now, and have finally decided to take the plunge and start making (and probably breaking) a bow. After reading posts on here and around the web I've settled on trying my hand a red oak board bow.
I've spent the last week wandering around the local home improvement stores and sorting through their lumber piles. Finally, today I found a decent looking red oak board at a certain orange and white store.
The board is a 1" x 8" x 6' (actual .75" x 7.25" x 72"). In the hundred or so boards I looked through it was the only one that looked like it had straight grain and wasn't figured or full of knots. It also felt somewhat heavier than the other 1 x 8's which I've read is a good thing. 7.25 inches is a fairly wide board so I'm hoping to be able to rip it down the length and make 2 or maybe three bows out of it.
Here are some pics of the board (please let me know what you all think).
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Welcome to the loony bin
Looks like a good board selection to me...what are ya waiting for,start ripping into it.....good luck and have fun with it
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Thanks blackhawk.
The first order of business is going to be building a tillering stick/tree from some scrap boards sitting in the corner. Hopefully I'll have the board cut by the end of the day and start laying out my design.
Was thinking for my first bow I'd go with a pyramid design, 70" ntn with a rigid handle. I am looking for something about 45# @ 28". Is this reasonable for a 2" width at the fades for that type of design? Or is there an easier/better design for a first timer you'd recommend?
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That's a nice looking board there. The right side in the end shot is nearly full quartersawed and the middle is rift....ought to make damned fine bows. Ya got a good plan for your "design too. Hope ya post it up when ya got 'er bendin.
rich
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Those pics shouldbe archived! lol. dang near perfect grain. You found gold in the stack. at the same store for $5 I got a little pulley mounted on a flat bracket perfect for a tillering tree. other than that your scrap wood will work great
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that layout will work fine and a great board, rip it into thirds and start layin' it out to cut, oh and post lot's of pics, even if it break's, you'll learn a lot from a brokin bow, Bub
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Yeah was relieved to find it...
Well today I built my tillering tree. I threw it together from a pile of scrap wood I had laying around. I built a very basic tillering stick with screws every inch. I plan to attach it to a wall and add a pulley after I get through my first bow or two. Building the tree took me about an hour. Then I got down to work on the bow.
I built a guide rail for my cheap cordless circular saw so I could rip the board to 2" in width. This board is much denser than any red oak I've worked with before. I drained both my batteries just ripping it halfway. After waiting for my batteries to recharge, I finished ripping my board. (I really need to get a table saw and/or band saw.
While laying out the bow design, I noticed the board had a slight bend (reflex) to it (I didn't see any before I ripped it.) The design is a pyramid bow with a rigid handle. The handle will be 5" long with 2" fades. The limbs will taper from 2" at the fades to .5" inch at the tips. I plan to glue on a 1 x 2 riser and some red oak tip overlays.
Not being able to contain myself, I started roughing out the limbs. I got 1/2 of the roughing out on the limbs done before calling it quits.
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Looks like a good start to me :)
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Looks like a good board and plan. I'm looking forward to seeing it finished. It's a "Champagne Day" when your first one's a shooter. :)
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Thanks Scott D. That was one of the sites I looked at when I was building up the courage to start this project. Looking it over again, it makes me want to reflex the tips like he did...but I think I'll keep it simple for this first bow (i.e. make something that can shoot before I worry about getting fancy.) ;)
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Lookin good, so far, Rich. Keep us posted!!
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Nice start Rich. I'm wondering if that board couldn't be white oak instead of red as you are saying it's way denser than any red you've worked with. I've seen it happen before in those home center wood racks.
Not trying to be technical or anything but what you've built there, I would consider a tillering "stick". If you want a "tree" to mount on the wall with a pully affair, you won't want those screws on there as you want to be able to pull and release freely with the pully set up without it hooking on the screws or any notches. You just need the inch markings so you know how far you've pulled it.
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I am very interested in making a red oak board bow like that for my friend. He has a 23-24 draw... But wants it to be hunting weight. So if I follow that TG buildalong how could I bring up the weight?
Pikeing, or maybe changing the handle size?
It looks like a fun project and I can't wait to start it 8)
-Billy
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Randman, Not sure about the wood. I am very bad at discerning species based on appearance of wood. However, it does have more of a pinkish tint than even some of my other red oak boards. I intend to ad some more bells and whistles to the tillering stick once I get a bow or two under my belt. My thought process was that I didn't want to spend a ton of time making an overly elaborate tree only to find out that I didn't like bow making.
That said, I don't think I've enjoyed working on a project this much in quite a while. If making a bow is this satisfying, how much more so will it be to hold the finished project in my hand and shoot it. I think when I head to my parents house this weekend I'm going to check out their home improvement stores and see if I can find some things to improve my tillering tree and perhaps if they have any good boards. ;D
Back to the project: I've finished roughing the sides of the limbs. Next I'm going to go knock out the handle area. In preparation for removing wood from the belly to get the bow to thickness I wanted to ask a question. From what I've read a pyramid bow has a fairly uniform thickness down the limbs. For a 70" ntn bow (2" wide at the fades to 1/2" at the tips, with 9" rigid handle) how thick should I be shooting for? I'm trying for about 45# at 28".
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Quote from TG buildalong
"Next, you’ll need to build yourself a fade-out jig. As before, I used a French curve"
What is a French curve?
Other than that, the whole project seems pretty manageable, and I bet my friend will like this as a present for his bar-mitzvah better than money that won't touch until he is 18 8)
He goes by hayawatha around here and I think he will really appreciate it.
Thanks for this post, and leading me to such a quick bow.
On to home depot to acquire some "staves"!
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Here's some pics of what I accomplished today. I roughed the shape of the limbs and the handle. Would have done more but had to stop because I realized my spokeshave and plane weren't as sharp as I like and wanted to sharpen them up before getting the limbs to the correct thickness.
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Looking really good so far.
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That said, I don't think I've enjoyed working on a project this much in quite a while. If making a bow is this satisfying, how much more so will it be to hold the finished project in my hand and shoot it.
Oh Boy........you're a goner now for sure. There's no hope for you anymore, there's no turning back you're hooked >:D
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Only thing I see wrong is them wood shavings are supposed to be scatterd all over the floor!! :o
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Rock pn man looking good ;)
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Did you remove your pictures? I'm trying to view them but received a 404 - Attachment not found error page
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No pictures visible but glad you are having fun. :) Jawge
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can't see the pics, good luck!! welcome to the madness
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Don't know what happened to the pics. I re-uploaded them to the posts and they are visible again (I hope.) I went to my parents house for the weekend so I didn't get any more progress made on the bow. I did however try my hand at making some bow strings and made a decent Flemish twist string out of B50 for my tillering tree. Since it's Monday and I'm home again, I'll be back to working on my bow again today. More pics to come!
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Today I thinned down the belly of both limbs to 9/16" with my spokeshave and no. 33 plane. I cut and glued up a riser made from poplar and red oak scraps and glued it to the handle area of the bow/board (don't know when it officially stops being a board and becomes a bow.) I also glued on two 2.5" tip overlays made from red oak scrap. I also snapped a picture of my Flemish twist tillering string that I made over the weekend.
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Great work :) That looks like a pretty good board. Looking forward to the finished product :D
Matt
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Today my board started to look like a bow! I cut the excess material off the tip overlays and cut some nocks with a round file. I checked the bow was bending on the floor and it looked like both limbs were bending evenly. So without further ado I threw it onto my "tree" and started bending it with a long string. I took my time and exercised about 30 times for every inch I pulled.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know what I'm doing when I'm tillering. I tried to keep an eye out for obvious hinges or flat spots. I found that it's hard to see, even if you step back. I snapped pictures on my phone every few inches looking for problems. I worked the bow to 28" on the loose string and stopped. I snapped a few pictures and wanted to know what everyone thinks of the tiller before I move to bracing it up.
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While I was waiting for the wife to get home, I figured I'd get out the scale and measure the draw weight. Unfortunately it maxed out my 50 lb. fish scale before 28" on the long string. I got the bathroom scale under the tree (zeroed with the bow and tree on the scale) and got about 72 lb. at 28" on the long string. :o
I guess tomorrow i'm gonna take an 1/8" off the belly and re-tiller it again. :-\
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I would get the right limb bending more from mid limb to tip... You are developing a hinge at the fade...
Jon
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First thing. DON'T pull the bow passed your target weight. If you're shooting for 45#, don't pull it passed 45#. Easy it down inch by inch at the 45#. Because if the limbs are not bending perfectly, you're going to end up with bow with a lot of set at best or broken at worse.
2nd don't take any more wood off the limbs within 3" of the handle. Most of your bend in coming from that area. Get the middle 1/3 of the limbs bending a bit more. That will releive some of the stress on the inner 1/3, bring it back to an eliptical tiller.
Note the black lines on top of the middle 1/3 of each limb are straight.
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I guess tomorrow i'm gonna take an 1/8" off the belly and re-tiller it again. :-\
No, please don't! You have to tiller it - not remove 1/8" of wood from the belly! Tillering is completely different than "removing wood off the belly until you hit the target weight". You have already greatly overstressed the bow by just pulling it to 72 pounds while your targetweight is 50 pounds. NEVER pull beyond your intended drawweight.
Plan of action:
- Mark the the first five inches of both fades (measure 5" away from the handle of each limb and mark that area clearly), to make sure you do not remove any more wood from this area.
- Scrape bothe midlimbs, but the right one more than the left one. The right midlimb is now stiffer than the left limb. Scrape it with a sharp scraper or spokeshave set at very fine curls.
- When the long string tiller looks good at 5" of tip deflection, put a short string on. You're using the long string for too long, if you're not careful. It doesn't matter what the actual drawlength or drawweight is at that point, just get an even tiller at five inches of tip deflection.
By the way, have you rounded all the corners of the limbs?
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Thanks for the replies hedgeapple and DarkSoul... have a feeling you just saved me from an even bigger screw-up. That's a neat trick with the ellipse hedge (I'll have to remember that for the future). OK... off to the garage to get those mid limbs moving.
What is tip deflection (still really new and not up to speed on all the terminology yet)?
One of the issues I had was that I didn't really know how long to tiller on the long string before moving to the short and bracing. On a typical build when should I move from long to short and full brace?
Yes I did round them lightly with sandpaper before tillering. I wasn't sure how much to round them though...
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Tip deflection is how far the tips have moved from the straight limb position. When they have moved 5" from being straight, it is time to put a short string on. Start with a low brace height and if/when the bend looks good and even, move up to a normal brace height (approx. 6" depending on bow design/length).
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Thanks!
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Ya i don't even do long string tiller any more because it's deceiving and nowhere near the type of stresses the bow will experience when actually drawn. After floor tiller i go straight to a string that lays flat on the belly, that in essence is my only long string. You'll find the bend/tiller change on you because with the long string the angle of pull is more vertical (on the tree) than horizontal, but when you brace it the pull will be more horizontal than vertical (on the tips) causing the limb to bend MORE past midlimb and less at the fades (whereas the long string makes it bend more at the fades, think 'lever action'). You'll find the weight is different as well. I slowly work the string shorter as i zero in on tiller approaching brace. Ideally, by the time you reach brace, the major tiller work is done.
At any rate, you're looking good for a first build, looks like it should make a nice shooter. You may have a little extra set, but look at it how Howard Hill did, helps improve the overall performance of the bow (accuracy, handshock, etc) ;) I had a piece of .80 SG red oak for my first and it was awesome, quite forgiving of my abuse!
Question: I've never done a pyramid, though it's calling my name, but my understanding is you want the belly perfectly flat with uniform thickness (after the fade of course) and you tiller from the sides? I may be wrong on that. Also, it was my understanding you want a circular tiller in each limb, not elliptical, with a pyramid profile (excepting of course the flat part of the handle area). Correct me if i'm wrong. ???
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Question: I've never done a pyramid, thought it's calling my name, but my understanding is you want the belly perfectly flat with uniform thickness (after the fade of course) and you tiller from the sides? I may be wrong on that. Also, it was my understanding you want a circular tiller in each limb, not elliptical, with a pyramid profile (excepting of course the flat part of the handle area). Correct me if i'm wrong. ???
Umm.. dunno.. hope someone answers it because if so I am doing it wrong (I'm tillering on the belly).
Anywho, I worked on it some more and tried to get the outer limbs moving a little more. I got it to a low brace (about 4 inch) and worked it to a draw of 21 inch. It is pulling 50# @ 21.
Since I previously stressed the bow to over 70# :-[ , should I increase my target weight (to say 60#) or keep removing wood until I get to my draw length (28 in.) at 50#?
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looks to me like the right limb is still bending too much at the fade. How much set do you have right now after unstringing and resting a while? If it's not much then you're fine. I imagine if you keep your target weight under that 70# you initially pulled your set really won't increase any more, the damage is pretty much already done. Keep it to something you can draw comfortably.
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That right limb is still bending too much at the fade. The left one looks better, but is also a bit flat at the midlimb. Still, do not touch both inner limbs near the handle fade. Scrape the midlimbs to gain your last few inches of drawlength. For every five scrape you do on the right limb, do two scrapes on the left limb. Check tiller after every twenty scrapes you do with a scraper. And exercise the limbs after every session of wood removal, but make sure you don't draw past your intended drawweight or -length! I'd still advice you to aim for 50# drawweight.
You're making good progress. Don't rush it now!
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It is looking good but my 63 year old eyes are having a bit of a time looking at the tiny pictures and I've already enlarged my pages by 2 LOL. Anyway, I long string tiller out to 10 inches looking for bow weight at that and good movement of the limbs. Then I string it. More on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Rich here is a quote from another bow thread that may be helpful, i'm sure theres more and TBB has some input, but this is what i found with a quick search and have seen elsewhere:
As for front view profile effecting tiller shape, while they aren't dependent on each other, front view profile will tell you the optimal tiller for best speed. The relationship is that of mass and movement where the less massive parts of a bow move the greatest distance because they are the easiest to move. A pyramid bow with even taper has circular tiller because the mass and width decrease evenly along the limb. A flat bow with limbs full width to mid limb will have elliptical tiller because the inner limbs shouldn't be moving as much because this causes the rest of the mass in the limb to move a greater distance. In the case of the flat bow versus the pyramid, the flat bow has more mass mid limb and that area should not move as far thus creating the elliptical tiller.
Keep moving forward and take it slow and easy, you'll get there :)
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You are at the stage right now where rushing it will ruin it. Slow way down. A few scrapes, exercise the limbs thirty times, partially drawing, until the true tiller shape shows. Spend lots more time looking at it than working on it. The closer you get, the more the anticipation and excitement builds and you find yourself wanting to just go ahead and pull it to full draw. Fight that feeling, and keep creeping up to your full draw and target weight. Oh, and when you get over twenty inches of draw, I wouldn't leave it hung on a notch on your tillering tree more than a few seconds. I remember breaking a couple of red oak bows that way.... You are doing great! Stay with it.
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Thanks for all the encouragement. I'm really flying blind here, so it's nice to have some pro's giving sage advice. Off to scrape away.... ;)
Oh and to answer someone's earlier question it's taken on about an inch of set after that earlier abuse.
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an inch isn't too bad, it's probly all in the first third of the limbs due to the earlier long string stress. if you can finish with under 1.5 inches you'll be in good shape. don't hold it drawn any longer than absolutely necessary. In fact, i would say get that profile as perfect as possible before you pull any farther, then i would do the last 7 inches of tillering in the hand (this will keep you from having to leave it strung on the tree), use a mirror or sliding door to watch'r bend. You can feel if she's rocking while you draw as well, that will tell you if you need to lighten a limb up a touch.
Also, i find that at this point (21") you can start shooting at a short draw. I find that much more effective at making the limbs accept the changes than just exercising. Scrape, shoot 20 or so arrows thru, check tiller, repeat till she's perfect, then pull a little further. Mark your arrow for the lengths so you know how far to pull.
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Thanks for the advice K-hat. I've got it up to 24" draw keeping it @ 50#. I guess I'll stop here and maybe shoot it a bit. ;D
However, I do have one problem...I have no arrows. :-[ Guess I need to make 5-10. Been reading lots of tutorials on arrow making so I'm off to get some arrow-making supplies.
Oh quick question: when measuring brace height do you measure from the back of the bow, the belly wood, or the handle/riser?
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I measure from the belly of the handle (ie: the deepest part of the grip). bout 6" should be a good start. A lot of folks have the brace low enough so the fletchings just clear the handle when the arrow is nocked. Play around with it once you can shoot some and see what works best for you and the bow. I certainly wouldn't go much higher than 6". Never understood the fistmele thing, cuz with my hand that puts brace VERY high, which overstresses the bow.
If you dont' mind spending a little (ok, not a little) you may find some traditional arrows at an outdoors supply (cabelas, bass pro). They run about $50 for a dozen, but all they need is tips. By all means, if you have the time and stuff, make em!! Only a few cents each then. Hey, a dollar each is still awesome compared to $4 each!!
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oh yeah, and as far as shooting for tiller you can fake it kinda. Just cut a self nock into a dowel, sharpen the end and let loose!! You're not going for flight yet so much as teaching the wood to accept the changes you've made by scraping.
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Made some cheap cheater-dowel-duct-tape-fletched-garage-arrows last night. Took her out back this morning and let a few fly (shot at 24" only, about 10 times.) Having never shot off hand before and having very little to reference I can't comment on speed or accuracy. It did send some arrows across the yard though! ;D
Didn't have an assistant to snap any draw pics and don't want to let it sit drawn to 24" in the tiller stand while I fiddle with the camera, so I'll post some draw pics when I get my wife to help. Here's one at 6" brace.
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That's looking really good now :) You're making great progress!
Did you round all the corners? The limbs look fairly square in that last pic...round all corners to about the size of a pea. Sharp corners are a place for splinters to lift.
It's also time to reduce those overly massive tipoverlays. It's just fine for tillering, but they greatly influence shooting characteristics of a bow. You'll notice the bow shoots better once those tips have been reduced. Narrow the tips down to 7/16" wide and 9/16" deep. Then, reduce the overlay so it's nice and fluent. Look at some pics of finished bows for a reference.
As far as tiler goes, the left limb in that last pic looks slightly stiffer than the right limb. Hard to see though...a pic at partial draw (maybe 20" in the tiller tree/stick) would be useful in judging tiller.
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Thanks for the advice DarkSoul. I was at the in-laws for mother's day so no work on the bow over the weekend. I had time to shoot the bow about 50-60 times this afternoon. I made and taped on a temporary arrow shelf and found that I was able shoot much better. Did have some arrow's porpoising (but I realize that is something that I can fix with final tuning and proper nock alignment on the string.) Back to tillering, tip overlay work, and rounding those edges a bit more tomorrow.
One thing of note: when I restrung the bow after letting it rest all weekend I noticed it made a weird noise I had never heard before. I was very gentle restringing it (I exercised it in the stringer about 30 before bringing it to full brace.) I noticed it made a sort of ticking noise in the handle/riser area. It wasn't a cracking sound more of a creaky/ticking noise. As best I can figure it was the bow trying to bend a little bit in the handle area and the riser/glue trying to fight it. It did not make the noise again while I shot it or when I unstrung it. Any thoughts?
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It could have been the string rubbing the nocks, or the string stretching, but it could have been a splinter or the handle separating as you mentioned. It looks like your fade thickness increases before your glue line on the riser (as it should), is that the case? If your handle area is done correctly then i wouldn't think the handle is separating, but it's possible.
CLOSELY inspect the bow all over for any splinters beginning to lift or cracks, check the glue line on the riser. If it really was a "tick" sound, that usually indicates a wood separation somewhere. Restring the bow and check all over again for the slightest separation, which may simply look like a line in the grain/growth ring. Hold the bow in front of you sideways and with the back facing you and pull a little on the string and inspect again as the bow flexes, especially the fade area.
The only time i've had the tick, i eventually found splinters lifting, sorry to say, but one can hope!
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That is looking good,you have came along way.Like k-hat said look it over good,if it is bending in the handle at all the handle will probably pop off.Hope not but better than a splinter. :)
Pappy
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Suspense is killing me... what happened? I hope it was just the handle trying to pop off. If that happens don't fret. You can glue on pieces of tool leather with super glue and build up a good handle. I like for a bow to bend slightly in the handle - I just like the feel of it when I am shooting. The built up leather handles don't mind a little flex.
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Sorry for the suspense... I looked it over... and over.. and over..I put it to brace and looked some more... I pulled it to to several different draws and looked at it from many different angles... I couldn't see anything that looked like a crack or splinter lifting. No clue what made the sound.
Anyways I continued tillering slowly to my final draw length. Around 26 or 27 inches I had to fight off a hinge in each limb. I finally got it tillered to 28 inches at the correct weight. I then gave it quick sanding (100 grit). I measured and the right limb is slightly stiffer than the other (about 3/8" less tip deflection.)
I still need to cut down the tip overlays (but I'm waiting for my new bow stringer and goodies to arrive from 3RA).
As of now it is 70" ntn and pulls 49ish # @ 28". It took on just shy of 2" of set. I will probably shoot it a while (at least 100-200 shots) and then contour the handle, sand it, add the final arrow shelf/rest, and put on the finish.
Thanks for all the help to date and please keep the comments, advice, and help coming.
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I just finished my first bow its a red oak and was shooting for 45lbs and i hit around 40 i wish i would have shot for 50 to 55do :)
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:) Heck yeah! Looks great.
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Well, I've shot in the bow now and decided to finish it. Here's the final product. Came in at about 47# @ 28 in. 72" ttt. Sorry no full draw pics at the moment.
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Nice finish. How do you like it?
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Really cool feeling ain't it? Started the next one yet?
Lane
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Pearl, Thanks. Decided on just a "natural" oil based finish with a polycrilic clear coat. It's awesome to be able to shoot something you made with your own hands. I'm definitely hooked. I have 3 more bows in the planning stages from the same board that this one was cut (one of which will hopefully be an identical twin to this one.)
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great job i hope my first bow turns out that nice. :)