Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: jonathan creason on March 22, 2012, 04:05:16 pm
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Just waiting for everything to be finalized and get my CCP. I'd like to pick up something I can stick in my waistband comfortably and be reliable. A friend of mine says he won't carry anything but a J-frame revolver, but I'm somewhat concerned about them printing. I do a lot of running at night, so I'd like to be able to hide one under a t-shirt. Do ya'll have any recommendations?
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Glock 17 and practice till you don't need the sights. ' Frank
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Gotta say Glock for drag through the mud reliability but I am kinda partial to my Ruger SR40 because of the higher grip angle and my Ruger LCP just because I can carry it in my pocket and no one knows it's there. :) The best thing you can do is go with a solid name brand like Ruger, Glock, H & K, or Smith and Wesson because they all stand behind their products and have excellent customer service. Also go to a local gun store and handle a bunch of different ones to see which one fits YOUR hand the best... better yet find a gun range that rents guns to test shoot... 100 dollars spent test firing a bunch of different guns is not as much of a waste of money as sinking 400-700 dollars on a gun you cant consistently put rounds into the target with... Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide. :)
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I recently got a Kel-tec PF-9 and love it. It is about the smallest 9mm semi auto out there. I can put it in my front pocket and you would never know. It is built for concealment, its less than in inch in width. But, because of its size, its not the most comfortable shooting gun. It's not bad at all, but its not as smooth to shoot as say a S&W M&P 9mm. Since you are a larger framed person you might want to see how a smaller gun fits your hand.
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I like Glock, and own a couple, but someday would like a "lemon squeezer", not sure who makes it, but they are concealable and safe. Glocks have no real safety, so I'd be careful w/ the whole waist band deal, I've done it many times, but that don't make it right. ;) Another one I'd like is the Bond Arms "snake killer"(?) derringer, 45 cal and/or .410 in either barrel. Man I'd like one of those babies. I do agree w/ Josh though too about the range. Good luck, dpgratz
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When I don't have a jacket on I'm carrying a Ruger LCP. In the Winter I'll carry a 45 1911 Para-ordinance. The wife likes her Kel-Tec 380, I can't tell the difference between a Kel-Tec or the Ruger except price. And if you hear someone say a 380 isn't enough I've got a 10 round clip for mine. ;)
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where did you get a 10 round magazine for the LCP Eddie?? I want one! :D
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What the others said. Plus, I personally like the .45acp, in the small frame sizes. I have a Kimber ultra carry, and absolutely love it! Any of the other small framed .45's and nine mm in that size, by Springfield, S&W Glock, Ruger,and other brands are fine also. If you like 9mm's there are a bunch of choices to choose from. The Kel Tec, Diamond Back, Khar Arms, Astra, Baretta, Taurus, Colt, S&W Ruger, and others.
The Ruger LC9 is compact, and thin. I would reccomend a good hollow point bullet for whatever gun you choose. Like Federal's Hydra Shock. There are other brand and types that are effective also. The Ruger LC9 is a double action auto, meaning, you have to pull the trigger in a double action mode, and when fired, it will "automatically" put another round in the chamber. It the safest as far as pocket carry. The only draw back to it that I have with it, is the long trigger pull. Same with the LCP, in .380 acp. I have a LCP in .380 acp, and it shoots very well for such a short barrel. I have a Crimson Trace laser sight on it, not so much for sighting, but more as a psychological advantage. The idea that you have a red, or green dot on you, kinda makes you think twice about life in general. ;) In a low light situation, it can put your barrel in the ball park. I carry the LCP, mostly, but still prefer the Kimber. It depends on your financial situation, but try to buy a well known brand, that is know for RELIABILITY, and customer support. When it comes to price, what is your life worth? Or your family's? By all means, when you finally select one, get an extra clip, or two, and PRACTICE with it at the range, and practice with it unloaded, by pulling it out from where ever you have it concealed, and be able to do it smoothly, and as unobtrusively as possible. If you can't do so, try another position. Practice often, even though you may be able to remove it quickly, and easily, you need it to be an automatic response when you need it, not having to think about it. You may have it hidden, with no print, and feel quite comfortable with it, till you have to pull it, and the time to find out how fast, and smooth you can bring it into action, is not when you actually need it! A lot of people carry a gun, and feel quite confident with it's location, till they have to use it, and in a life or death situation, fumbling around trying to get your cards on the table, when the bad guy already has his laid out, is not a good game to be in. ;) There are a lot of options for concealed holsters, and carry systems to choose from. this is all "Just my humble opinion." :)
Wayne
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Josh, you can get them at the gun shows, or your local dealer should have them, or can order them for you, or you can go on line. ;)
Wayne
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Think about a revolver. No worries about a safety. You simply pull the trigger and down does the bad guy. In a defensive situation, you probably wont need high capacity, and the less you have to do the better. Five or six rounds is more than enough to hit your target center mass. But whatever you choose, be prepared to practice so much, the weapon is part of you. Scary to think of all the idiots who carry but have never even been to the range, and I have met a few. And find yoruself a good conceal holster and wear it until it is as natural as putting on your shoes and brushing your teeth. You may only have a split second to pull and fire, and fumbling can get you dead.
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Thanks for the suggestions, guys. The Glock 17 and Ruger LC9 were 2 of the ones I've looked at the most. I know a lot of people love Glocks, but there's something about sticking a gun with no safety in my britches that makes me a little uneasy. I can't afford to go loosing anything there ;D.
I've been really considering revolvers too, Dane, but I haven't checked out but a few. There's a range pretty close to me that does rentals, or at least they did. A guy used a rented gun to kill himself there a few months ago. Not sure if their policy has changed any since then.
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but there's something about sticking a gun with no safety in my britches that makes me a little uneasy.
I have seen more accidents with a Berreta 92F than with a glock or similar pistol.
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Jonathan, The Glocks do have a trigger safety, but I've always thought of the possibilities of catching the trigger on something and having a miss fire. Check out the "lemon squeezer", it's a hammerless revolver and has a good safety and is concealable.
If any of you have any info on the "lemon squeezer" and why not to get one, I'd like to hear it. I've been thinking of getting one for the wife. dp
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Usually carry a Colt Combat Commander in .45, or a Para Ordnance Night Hog in .45.
Love my Bond Arms with the four inch barrel.
Got my wife the Taurus .357 Hammerless revolver and the KelTec .380.
Smith also makes a Hammerless .357 revolver at twice the price.
Like has been said, shoot a bunch of different handguns and see which one fits you and hits where you look.
Only thing I would say on top is go Stainless if you can.
Just one less thing to worry about.
For home defence you can't beat a Shotgun for inside and close around the house.
For medium to long range around the house, I go with an AR and an M1A respectively.
In the end PRACTICE REGULARY with your weapons of choice.
Until you don't have to think about form or function.
When the chips are down you don't want to be stuck out thinking about how your weapon works.
-gus
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Like Gus & For what it's worth, spent 20 in a big city PD....carried a 1911-A-1 single stack for duty and off. most the other guys liked the Combat Commander for both...all single stacks, and some guys would get the 8 round wilson combat or similiar magazines.
Personally I prefer the flat mainspring housing instead of the arched, also went with a Wolf spring kit and a 18# recoil spring. If you are going to reload you might consider "porting" the slide. If you accidentally shoot your self with a 1911 ya really got to work at it. Like Dane said get to know your equipment like it's part of ya.....hope you never need it, if you do, dont be afraid to use it.
rich
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Taurus titanium .357 , holds 7. Snubnose, ported, and very mean!
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I love revolvers but several companies make great compact nine MM now a days. I have a kelteck but the quality is questionable larger cals are great but uncomfortable for most to carry. The gun that you leave at home is no good to you at all. Revolvers are just too wide for me for concealed carry. Hope that helps.
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I carried the Taurus 357 and the wife had a Taurus 38 special Titanium. They were both great guns if you didn't want to practice with them much. After a box of shells it felt like a Nun had beat your palms and the back of your thumb with a ruler.
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A guy in my CC class qualified with a S&W .357. I was 2 people down from him on the line and could feel the shockwaves every time he pulled the trigger. After we got done our instructor handed the guy his Glock. I think the guys comment was " it's like shooting a BB gun."
I went and handed a couple of guns today. The LC9 fits my hand really well, just need to put some rounds through one.
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About the only handgun that has any stopping power and still fits my hand is the classic 1911 .45 ACP.
I like the way I can control the gun for the critical followup shot. Studies show it is rare for the first round to hit anything in the self-defense situation. Because of the single stack magazine the grip is a bit narrower and easier to control. I fall in the quality of shooting vs qualtity of shooting camp.
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I had bought my Girlfriend a S&W 38 air weight ( titanium ), and when she qualified with it at the range (She's a State Arson Detective) it would heat up and the the shells were difficult to extract. We took it to the gun show, and sold it for what I paid for it. She has a LCP she carries, as a back up, and a Astra AL75 she carries in her purse, and sometimes as a backup weapon. She loves the Astra, it is a very light, and accurate little pistol. It used to be mine. :'( She carries a Glock .40, and she has a Glock .45 as her personal gun, and a Sig 228, she purchased back from the dept. when the dept. went to Glocks. As for loads in her .38, for personal carry, she had Federal 125 grain +P hollow points. At the range she used standard loads to qualify with. If you have a light weight, or titanium 38, you can shoot plus "s, but a lot of shooting will loosen things up. I have a model 37, air weight my Brother bought in the late sixties, and I have plus p's in it. My Girlfriend has other guns also....... the overall majority of them were mine at one time..... :( If you can carry a revolver concealed, by all means do so. I still prefer revolvers, but the bulk is a factor. I had a 4 inch barrel, S&W model 19, in .357...... but...... She..... has it now. :'( I still have my six inch barrel 19 thought. ;) The overall majority of recorded shootouts, involving police, and civilians is supposedly something like 6-10, or 15' distances.
I do like the higher capacity clips, for the reason, when you need, the extra shot, it is nice to know it is there. Not to wish you had it. ;) Not that it is common to need it, but I am under the Murphy's Law, cloud. ::) As for training to have a natural reflex action in drawing your weapon, like it has been said, practice, and practice. In the heat of things, it is good to be the one with the natural reflex, and positive response. ;)
Good luck with your choice. Choose what is comfortable and effective for you.
Yeah, years ago, there was a Gun Range down south of here, and a woman bought a small pistol, and took the safety course, at the gun range, and then bought ammo, and eye, and ear protection, and went into the range, and loaded her pistol, and turned to look at the staff behind the window that were watching her, and turned back around, and put the gun up to her head, and the staff were yelling and banging on the window, and some were running to the range, but she pulled the trigger! :o Sad, but I can't help but to think why at the gun range? Isn't there some place isolated, away from people? Some place with a nice view? If you're going to whack yourself, don't involve innocent people, who have nothing to do with your problems. I feel sorry for those people, but why involve others, and drag them into a mess?!
Wayne
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I have a taurus 357 revolver 7 shot and I like it alot ,its fixed sights but still very accurate also you can practice with 38 rds and save money just use the 357's for protection.
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Because it is the ultimate in selfish acts, Stickbender. What did she care about what hell others were being drug into, Drama Queen wanted to go out with a bang. It was all about HER.
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My everyday ccw is a Smith&Wesson 340pd Airlight, its hamerless only 12 ounces unloaded and you can carry it comfortably without worring about anything going wrong with it, just pull the trigger till its empty. I use a custom pocket holster and you cant tell its there it has such a thin frame. I will say there are some bad points to it and those are its so light I sometimes forget its on me and it does have a bit of a kick with the 357 mags but 38 special are a breeze IMO. It was a little on the spendy side but I love it and dont have a problem hitting what im aiming at within 20 yards. Great gun check it out and at least have a look at it. then there is the trusty 44mag super black hawk for longer ranges and a bit more damage lol
Josh
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Smith & wesson m&p 40 polymer frame every thing else stainless with melonite coating very durable
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I'd also recommend the Heckler and Koch P7. It's a hammerless semi-auto with no safety. But it is a squeeze cock mechanism that takes over 3 lbs of grip to cock and an ounce to hold in cock. In an "aw heck" moment you draw and make a fist - goes bang. They are crazy safe, drop one in a cemt mixer with a round in the chamber and tumble all day, it can't go off, it remains uncocked and the firing pin is not even lined up with the primer.
Slim profile in the Model 8, but they have a double stack as well for people with bigger hands and poor aim.
The barrel isn't rifled either. It has 11 flat sides in a twist. Clever. Cleans easily. The down side...puny 9mm. I prefer a .45 with some authority.
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I had one of those. Always worried when I squeezed it, and it went click.... ???
Then pulled the trigger, and bang. Shot pretty well. Took a little getting used to. The NJ State police department switched to them, till a lot of their people were shooting themselves. It has a polygonal barrel system, instead of rifling. Sort of like bumps, in a spiral pattern. They are still pricey, even for the used ones. I can buy a nice 1911 .45 for the price of one of those, used p7, or p8's. ;)
Wayne
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The de-cocking click is the dangerous part....cops tend to shoot when they hear it. >:D
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My usual carry gun is a little Charter Arms "off duty" model .38 cal. snubby. It is easily concealed, lightweight, relatively inexpensive, and utterly reliable. Handguns are close range weapons and are made to fight off an attacker - usually used up close and personal and the studies of trends in gunfights say two or three shots is the norm... I think the five shot .38 fits the bill for a carry gun. They are simple to operate, few moving parts, safety catches, etc... less things to foul up.... and a .38 has been around a long time and has left many a bad guy room temperature.
All that said.... on duty, I have carried a Glock .45 since 1994 and have nothing bad to say about it, except for the fact that it is a big gun that isn't easily concealed.
there's one old cop's two cents worth....
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I really like my Glock 19
I shoot the 148gr flat nose, they stay subsonic and I can be very accurate,
I got a 2# trigger and a heavy titanium recoil spring,
hard to beat the 15 rounds Magazine too.
all in all a fine gun indeed.
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All that said.... on duty, I have carried a Glock .45 since 1994 and have nothing bad to say about it, except for the fact that it is a big gun that isn't easily concealed.
Unconcealed has it's advantages too. Something about it says you prefer to be left alone.
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Jonathan, lots of good opinions given so far, but IMO you did not yet answer 2 critical questions:
1. what will you be using it for, ie when will you be carrying it?
2. are you in a bad neighborhood, ie do you need 1 shot stopping or do you expect it to be mostly deterrent IF you ever have to draw it?
If it's primarily for when you're out running then I'd go with something small, thin, light - ruger lcp or kel-tec 380. I used to run a lot back when my knees worked, I'm picturing a big gun banging against my hip/butt every step for 5 or 10 miles, I bet I'd end up leaving the gun at home after a while. :)
FYI, I've been there -- I mean, asked "what gun should I buy for concealed carry?" Over the years the answer has evolved into several different guns that I carry at different times (for different purposes): a big revolver, a small revolver, a big semi auto (1911), and a small light semi auto (380).
hth.
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If it's primarily for when you're out running then I'd go with something small, thin, light - ruger lcp or kel-tec 380.
YES!! I run with my Ruger LCP in my scrub pants pocket inside a Desantis pocket holster 3 times a week. I sewed a little snap button on the inside of the pocket to hold it in place so it wont shift while running. I forget it is there at times. :)
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Jonathan, finding a gun is like finding a bow you have to take in mind A) how it feels in you hand B) what you want to use it for C) you hand grip and strength ...not very meny women can shoot a desert eagle and a lot of men cannot shoot them either.
I carried a S&W 38 for over 40 yrs on my belt tried a Glock but it just did not feal right, a friend had a LLama 9mm I loved the way it felt but he would not sell it to me but then I found the Springfield XD it has a triple safety system (it will not fire unless you have a proper grip + it has a "flag" that lets you know if a shell is chambered) large clips, comes with adjustable grips, a belt holster (I do not use mine I am left handed) and it is SSSSWWWWEEET very little kick and light weight. You can easily mount a laser (if you are not use to shooting under stress I would recommend a laser).
When you get a gun PRACTICE and not just standing with a straight arm (on the range it is nice but under a street situation it rarely happens) practice shooting from you side elbow in arm close to body protecting the gun with you off hand. Practice shooting sitting on your butt if you get knocked down you want to be able to draw and fire and hit you target center mass. Practice drawing and firing from you hip if your hip is in line with your target you will hit lower center mass.
You may want to order a catalog called Quartermaster they have some nice holsters including the T shirt conceal holster, the belly pack holster and so on.
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I like my .45 and I'm accurate with it. But since I got the LCP. 380 it is usually in the Jeep next to me on road trips. The LCP is on my hip for rest areas, and gas stations in the early morning hours, I don't even notice it.
I also think if you got in a wrestling, or knocked on the ground situation it would be easier to come out with it and put it on target, or shove it in somebodies body and start empting it then the .45. I also think if you found yourself in a scenario that you had to use the .380 it would more than likely be 4' or less.
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I'm partial to my Glocks. I also like the 1911 frame pistols but, if I were to recommend one, I would suggest the Glock. The difference in my mind is the ease in disassembly between the two. A Glock breaks down very fast. I can do it in less than 5 seconds with no special tools. I feel that the easier a pistol is to break down, the more apt we are to keep it cleaned! Whatever your decision, be religious about cleaning it!
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JC,
been following the thread and ya got some good advise. If it helps, kinda like Mullet said.....don't overlook the .380 (Europe it's a 9mm Kurz). For what it's worth the .380 is an exactly scaled down 45 acp, not only designed by JB ....but a .380 with 1/2 powder charge is a particular favorite of the Israeli Mussad.....and they've killed a few people, so don't sell it short if ya want small.
rich
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Rich is right. We all tend to think bigger caliber is better, where as a smaller round, especially with hot loads, will put your enemy in the ground or take him out of commission. The 45 acp and the .40 S&W are great rounds, so are others, but a .38 special or 9mm are both highly effective. Smaller calibers means more time at the range for the average person, and probably more enjoyment which encourages someone to go the range more often.
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Also, consider the penetrating power of a given caliber. Shooting an innocent person, accidentally or not, will stay with you forever. And the liabilty can't be ignored, like it or not.
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Danes right, just watch your news for what's going on in Sanford, Fl. right now.
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Jonathan, lots of good opinions given so far, but IMO you did not yet answer 2 critical questions:
1. what will you be using it for, ie when will you be carrying it?
2. are you in a bad neighborhood, ie do you need 1 shot stopping or do you expect it to be mostly deterrent IF you ever have to draw it?
If it's primarily for when you're out running then I'd go with something small, thin, light - ruger lcp or kel-tec 380. I used to run a lot back when my knees worked, I'm picturing a big gun banging against my hip/butt every step for 5 or 10 miles, I bet I'd end up leaving the gun at home after a while. :)
FYI, I've been there -- I mean, asked "what gun should I buy for concealed carry?" Over the years the answer has evolved into several different guns that I carry at different times (for different purposes): a big revolver, a small revolver, a big semi auto (1911), and a small light semi auto (380).
hth.
1. It'll be an everyday carry gun, but I want something small and out of the way. I'd like to be able to carry while I run, or do other outdoor activities where a bigger gun might be a hinderance.
2. My town's pretty quiet, but like anywhere else there are some meth heads and crack heads around. I don't ever anticipate needing it, but I'd like to have the option if things ever escalated to that point.
I do my best to be situationally aware of everything around me. Even when I'm running with ear buds in, they're turned down low and my head is on a swivel. Also, I always run with my dog. She's a big wuss, but I think the presence of one is enough to deter many would-be bad guys. I'm not huge, but I'm not a small guy, either, at over 220 lbs., so I don't think I'd be a typical target for most 150 lb. crack heads. Also, I've had formal fight training from a guy that ended up fighting in the UFC. Not enough that I'd feel confident jumping into the ring, but if I ever needed it on the streets I know what to do.
I appreciate everybody helping out and giving advice. I'm really leaning towards the Ruger, but I do want to shoot one first. I think a guy I go to church with has one, so I might be able to go put a few rounds through his.
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I have 3 handguns that I CC. When the weather is coldish, I always have an untucked flannel type shirt on, and carry a standard 1911/45acp in a IWB holster. When it's warmer, or I don't want the weight, I carry a Polish P-64/9mm Makarov, also in an IWB holster or an FEG R61, in the same IWB holster.
the P-64 and R61 are both Walther PPK clones that shoot the more powerful 9mm mak. it's about half way between a 38acp and a 9mm.
These are not mine, but they are good comparison photos. the one on the left is a p-64 and the one on the right is an R61. You will have a difficult time finding an r61, took me years, but the P-64's can be picked up for less than $300.
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/505Erich/Handguns/3july10Gils9x18s0070001yyy.jpg)
Jamison
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I think that is what my Bersa Thunder is modeled after. Look exactly the same even the same "sweep up" safety. Mine is .380 though. Cost around 200 dollars used and i have put over 1200 rounds through it and never a hick-up or failure. the Bersa's are way underrated I think. :)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/deftones3333/IMAG0023.jpg)
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wow, those do look a lot alike. It appears that the take down is different. on the ppk clones and traditional ppk, you have a hinged trigger guard that allows the slide to come off. That is standard on the Russian and east German makarov as well.
The safety on the two clones is completely different. they both have a block that rolls in front of the firring pin and the sear is disengaged, allowing the hammer to fall on the block when put onto safe, but the feg takes it a step farther and actually lowers the forward part of the firing pin below the firing pin hole, so it can't possibly go off while on safe.
oh, I didn't think of this earlier. If you want that two tone look and don't mind a half inch longer pistol, FEG makes the pa63 that is a Walther pp clone. they can be picked up for around the same price as the p64. I'm not sure if the pa63 has the same safety as the r61. Frankly, I don't have one to take apart and see.
Jamison
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I also think if you got in a wrestling, or knocked on the ground situation it would be easier to come out with it and put it on target, or shove it in somebodies body and start empting it then the .45.
Mullet, I'm curious why you say that?
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Semper;
Mostly because I live in Florida and very seldom get to wear a jacket or flannel shirt past 10 AM. So the only place I can usually carry my 45 concealed is in the small of my back. The outline is too easy to see with shorts, flip-flops and a T-shirt. I have a nice, friendly hip holster, inside the pants that you can't tell is there with a T-shirt on. And with it being on my hip I can come out with it faster, I've practiced and after 40 years of karate I know how to fall and recover.
When the weather does stay cold for a while you can bet I'm packing the .45. I also used to have an East German Mak. I'm still kicking my butt for selling it.
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that makes perfect sence :)
Lets just all hope if you hope, pray if you pray, that none of us have to use our CC piece...
But it's better to have and not need then need and not have.
Jamison
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Mullet, you should never have sold that Mak! :) I have a CZ-82 I just love. It is my carry gun. I still have a little Firestar in 40 S&W if I really feel I need something more powerful. Those little guys are heavy as bricks but so much fun to shoot, even for their size.
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Dane, I have a Firestar in 9mm, and one in .45. Love them, and yes they are heavy, but if you have to do like Hollywood, and throw them, they will land with authority! ;) ;D ;D I also have a Star PD in .45, and love it also. It is light, and very accurate, and pleasant to shoot.
Wayne
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I think that is what my Bersa Thunder is modeled after. Look exactly the same even the same "sweep up" safety. Mine is .380 though. Cost around 200 dollars used and i have put over 1200 rounds through it and never a hick-up or failure. the Bersa's are way underrated I think. :)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/deftones3333/IMAG0023.jpg)
Done a lot of reading on the Bersa's today on a couple of forums. Seems a lot of people really love them, but there are some that want to look down their nose at 'em. Evidently all the police and military forces in Argentina carry them, so they must be fairly reliable.
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Bersa, has come a long way, since their introduction into the public sector.
I haven't held one for quite a few years, but the last one I held, had an incredibly smooth, and crisp trigger pull. I almost bought it on that fact alone.
Wayne
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I have a 380 Bersa and inside of 15 feet its great, tight groups. haven't tried to shoot any farther than that but great CCW weapon.