Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Keenan on March 18, 2012, 12:45:59 pm
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Allthough some trees are prone to decay and a standing dead should not be considered. Is it possible that there are some tree types that can even be better if they are standing dead. I'm sure that notion has just made some people utter words of disagreement. And I find it funny that just yesterday I was out looking specifically for a standing dead Juniper.
Several years ago I broke the standard rule and made a Juniper bow for Gordon out of a standing dead Juniper sapling. I was more then impressed with the results. Therefore I have been doing more testing on a theory that I have. Juniper is very rot and mold resistant and if cut at the right time (After dying from drought) I believe it to be better bow wood then a living tree. Here is why I say that. When you cutting a living tree you have a clear distinction and contrast from sapwood to heart wood. However as the tree dies from a drought scenario, It appears that there is very little contrast between the two. As though the sapwood is turning into a blend heart wood that is both good for compresion and still has the tension quality of sapwood. We know that the living part of the tree is just beneath the cambium, and that as the layers are laid down, they age and eventually become heartwood. Yet I wonder if with the right conditions, like a drought, if that process is possibly increased and sped up, and at the same time giving just enough water to the wood to keep it from checking. When I made that bow for Gordon I could barely tell a difference from the heart or sapwood. I have been comparing some of the staves I cut while green, with the standing dead and there is a difference. A few advantage to this method are that with standing dead you have no checking or warping or other drying issues. I know there are other issues with bugs and other factors. I thought tis might make for a good thought proking debate. Your input is welcome and I think it might be a good discusion if we are respectfull and embrace the possibilities of thinking outside the norm.
Here are some pics of a few different bows. The bow that I made Gordon, and then two bows from live cut trees. Notice the difference? I'll try to get some pics this afternoon of some fresh cut live and fresh cut standing dead.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_3764.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_0502.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_0550.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_3764.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/DSC_0042-2.jpg)
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Keenan, thanks for bringing this to light. One thing that you said that really strikes a note is the word "drought"! Typically east of the Mississippi is relatively wet and west of the Mississippi(MOL) is dry or at least dryer. Plants that grow in wet climates are different from plants that grow in dry climates, even in the same genus and species. I've seen common juniper dead standing trees and shrubs that only the heartwood was sound with the sapwood being flaky or powdery or not existing at all. The relative humidity and soil moisture is what allows molds and fungi to survive and in the east that is a constant. The west is relatively to very dry in R/H and soil M/C. Plants have developed certain characteristics to handle these different living conditions.
Someone suggested that if a dead tree is not laying on the ground then it's moisture content is not an issue. I reject that because as long as the roots are in the ground the tree still has contact to the ground and through capillary action there is still moisture transfer. In an area like out west that has low R/H and very little to no soil M/C(ie. in drought conditions) will have less moisture transfer if any at all. In these areas I believe resins,etc are produced by the trees to make their minimal M/C less effected by the lack of water. Trees need moisture to survive and these resins their survival strategy to hold on the the moisture that they do get.
I'm sure there are folks that have defied this and built great bows from standing dead trees of Eastern woods. First the type of wood will determine whether or how quickly decay will set in. In the wetter eastern climates it doesn't take long for fungi to set in to most whitewoods, maybe even only hours after the tree dies. It is the job of the fungi to break down dead wood and when conditions are right that happens very quickly. After all if these fungi weren't eating all the wood we would be overrun with dead trees. Wood like osage, black locust, yew(we have Eastern yews too), mulberry and to some extent sassafras and some oaks are pretty rot resistant but given enough time even they will break down back.
There are very few constants in our hobby, addiction or whatever you want to call it. A lot depends on where you live, what trees(or store bought wood) you have available to you, how you store it, how well and how long you season it and how well you tiller it into a bow. Each piece of wood is different even from the same tree. Each area of our country is different. Hickory can be sluggish in the humid East but out west it shines in the low R/H environment. A good piece of osage is effected little by the R/H of the East but can become brittle in a dry Western environment because it it just too dry for it.
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I guess we scared them off, Keenan! ::)
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this should be a good discussion (I ain't scared LOL) I have learned that what Pat is saying about wood characteristics to be pretty much spot on. even though my bowyering experience is only about three years I have been into wood working for most all my life.
I used to build custom box calls and still do from time to time and know for certain that some species from a certain region are notably better for calls than the same species from a different region. I even noticed in call making that the same species subjected to different circumstances where better or worse. In bow making it only seems that this would hold true as well.
When I decide to build a bow I don't go by the rules of the land I just grab a stick and build a bow. I am way beyond the point of loosing sleep when one breaks and never consider one a failure. I always look at each one whether it go's or blows as a learning experience and store that info for what works and what don't and what's better and what ain't.
I'll try some of that dead juniper Keenan ;D
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Keenan,
I have made bows from standing dead yew. Here is only a guess as to why this works well....Trees/ plants obsorb water through their roots then this is transported through the cambium layer, when a tree is dying it (may?) still obsorb water at a slower rate, but over time photosynthesis is slowed to a creep, and water that is transported out of the plant through the leaves stops. Now, the natural process of a live tree is over, and what normally sets in is fungi's of some kind that leads to spalting of most white woods. In the case of yew, and or a lot of rot resistant woods it is much harder because of natural chemicals in the wood for this to take hold, and discoloration of normal sapwood to heartwood may take place as the beginning stages of fungi attack, BUT with a given amount of time, and the right conditions this does not take place. I can only assume the reason is a slow, but gradual loss of water through evaporation due to wind, and heat. The bark staying in place I think is key, and once the dead tree reaches a level equilibrium with the outside elements, bark being the key to NOT let any drastic change one way or the other. I think once the bark is damaged, or starts to fall off the game is drastically changed, and a more rapid process of decay can take place depending on species.
Brian
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Bryce, Your thoughts confirm what I have been thinking on this subject, and yew is the only other type of tree that I have tried with these thoughts in mind. Juniper Junky and I have both made several bows from fire killed trees. Some were great and some seemed brittle and possibly just to dry from the fire. And I think the ones where the bark was burned were more prone to failure. It should be noted that allthough this might be a good theory for a few types of wood that this is not the norm for looking for bow wood.
Here are some pics of a standing dead vs. live cut. The first is the standing dead cut yesterday. Looks grainy due to the saw cut. The second is a pic of a stave rough out from a live cut tree.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_0298.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_4127.jpg)
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Keenan,
I am curious if those are both trunks, or one is a limb?? I ask because the diameter shown, and branches would (I would think) dry much faster being smaller in diameter compared to the trunk. I also would think the main trunk would stay wetter longer epecially in the lower regions due to soil contact, as well as girth that would take longer to dry?
Brian
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Brian. Those were both trunks of smaller diam saplings. I'll see if I can find a better pic of the whole fresh cut.
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Keenan,
Going to cabelas they have a knapping get together there. I will post a pic of a dead wood yew bow later today, you can clearly see the decay starting in the sapwood. It looks cool to me. Talk at ya later..... :)
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I really have nothing to offer on this debate but I wanted to take the time to thank all contributors,Its very interesting and informative! So thanks! Ron
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this is an interesting concept and seems you have it well thought out, i really have nothing to offer on the subject because quite honestly, it's over my head :embarassed:, Bub
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Brian I think you make a good point. After photosynthesis stops, capillary action ultimatly stops. To effect a standing dead tree, in the absence of capillary action, water has to come from the air. For either fungus or bacteria to colonize wood, water and oxygen are needed (except some crazy anaerobic bacteria). SO if a tree can stay off the ground, and stay dry, including from excess humidity (two massive ifs), than it can resist decay for a long time. Of course eventually, everything succombs to bacteria and or fungus. We wouldn't want it any other way :D. And I agree with you pat the air humidity dramatically impacts decomposition rates, even for standing dead wood.
In fire killed wood, the hardening and charing of the exterior (natures heat treating ;)) may also add to the decay resistance by forming a hydrophobic layer around the wood. This is especially1 true in evergreens, because when the oily needles burn, the oil covers the outside of the tree (and the ground all around it).
Fire is a a healthy thing for forests, and it just might produce some healthy bow wood on the side.
Just some rambling thoughts.
By the way, that is a gorgeous piece of juniper, and a gorgeous bow Keenan.
gabe
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its kind of funny you brought this up...last year i cut a live sapling tree and the heart wood was really small and the rest was sap...its really cool to see a sapling with that much heart wood...john
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Gabe, That is some great input and makes sense. Here in Central Oregon it is High desert and very low moisture much of the year. Yes Oregon is considered the wet state, however we are on the East side of the mountains and have an average of over 300 days a year of sunshine. So your thoughts on the moisture or "lack of" really come into play.
John. I just split that one that I cut yesterday and it appears dry and is feather light. It also looks like all heartwood except for the very outer edge. I know all live cut saplings appear to be almost all sapwood as you have stated. This is dry enough that I have sure I could tiller into a bow today if time allowed. I did a bend test on the junk side and was quite impressed. Had a great bend to it and when she let go it was almost a horse shoe shape and sent pieces all over the shop. May be a great survival tiller on the spot prospect.
Kris, It's easier for some of us to be abnormal and think outside the box >:D :o :o
Pat, I was almost scared to post these ramblings of my mind for the very reason of being considered a nut case. Then I realized most have probably already drawn their own conclusions ::) :o
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Keenan,
You might be interested to know that several of the Shoshonean tribes used that method exclusively. I'll look up the exact qoutes and refferences for you if you'd like. But essentially, it was trunkwood or limbwood (if large enough) of the Juniperus californica utahensis. They used it because in the "desert mountains" moist rot of dead wood never occures. Most bows were raerly larger than 3 feet in length and were of the "narrow" type and sinew backed as well as transversely wrapped......interestingly the Chemehuevis (Shoshonean) used the narrow type and were also the tribes known for decorating their bows with snake skins. The non shoshonean tribes of Navajo also adopted this type of bow.
When the wife and granddaughter are done w/ the computer I'll quote the writers ver-batum and the sources.
rich
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Rich, Thank you that sounds great and I am always fascinated with the history of bows from various tribes. Especially with woods that I have available. Please post what you can.
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Keenan,
Here are the words and sourcs references:
North American Bows, Arrows, And Quivers, Smithsoian Report of 1893, Otis Tufton Mason; page9 para: 9 through 11.......
" Coville says that the Panamint Indians of Death's Valley, California,make their bows from the desert juniper (Juniperus californica utahen ). The Indian prefers a piece of wood from the trunk or a large limb of a tree that has died and seasoned while standing. In these desert mountains moist rot of dead wood never occurs. The bow rarely exceeds three feet in length and is strengthened by gluingto the back a covering composed of strips of deer sinew laid on lengthwise.The string is of twisted hemp.++
These Panimint belong to the Shoshonean stock, spread out over the Great Interior Basin, and all the tribes use the sinew lined bow, with transverse wrappings of shredded sinew. (Plate LXI, fig.4.) *
The bow of the Chemehuevis (Shoshonean) is characteristic of the stock to which they belong, being of hard wood common in the region, elegently backed with sinew and bound with shredded sinew, ornamented also at the end by the skin or rattle of the rattlesnake.** The type belongs to the stock everywhere.
++] Am. Anthrop., Washington, 1892, vol. v,p. 360
* ] This illustration, bow #4, shows a thin bow with highly crowned back, and flattened belly
**] Whipple, etc., Pac.r.r. Rep., vol. III, p 32, pl.41, bow and quiver.
Furthermore page 10 of Otis Mason's Report, para.3 "........The Athapascan sinew veneered bow is found strictly West of the Rockies, the slender variety in the Basin and British Columbia, the flat variety on the Pacific Slope. The Navajo also have adopted this type of sinew-lined bow."
The bow that Otis Mason drew is analagos to an English long bow in section but only backwards crowned back and flat belly. Hope that helps you some.
rich
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Here are the pics of the yew bow I was talking about....upper limb has a very cool looking streak down it, and bottom limb had a rotten knot I removed.
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Awesome Rich, I have several books on North American bows and they are giving very similar acounts.
Nice looking bow Vinemaple, Thanks for sharing
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Keenan,
I have pretty decent museum pics of 6 or 7 of these bows afrom different tribes, including the navajo.....most are the shoshonean tribes including the southern Paiute. The site still will not allow the pics but if you send me your email address I will send them to you via email......if you want them that is.
rich
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I just found this thread and thought it very interesting , partly because I have a really nice piece of straight knot free hawthorn that I cut dead standing and havent used because I have been advised against it , but to me the wood looks perfectly good, so I will try it on the strength of this thread.
I have noticed here in the woods that under some conditions dead standing oak gets extremely hard, much harder than any oak that is cut green and seasoned, I have been thinking of trying this too. My bowsaw and axe are quickly blunted when cutting firewood but if you try to break it it is still flexible as well!!!!
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I'm curious, the general consensus is that wood from standing dead trees in dry environments is the target. My only counter to this argument is a tree that I'm currently targeting. the Alaska Yellow Cedar, which is actually a cypress, not a true cedar.
The sate of Alaska did a study testing the mechanical properties of this tree in several different groups ranging from live cut trees to trees that have been dead standing for better than 80 years. The conclusion of the study is that no significant changes in mechanical properties were noted. and according to the study, trees that have been dead from 20-50 years were stronger than anything else. the clincher is that the average, monthly, RH in this part of alaska is 80% and the area that these trees were cut is part of the coastal temporate rain forest with an average yearly rainfall of near 100".
My thoughts are that the rot resistance of the target wood is a more significant factor than the moisture of the sourounding environment.
This is how I think this works. It's not fact, just my conjectures. As the sapwood ages, it turns into heartwood, but since everything inside the cambium layer is dead already, this process is independent from the trees life cycle. which means that the soft sapwood converts to heartwood, even after the tree dies. The issue and cure is that a tree's live cambium layer must protect the dead interior wood from bacterial and fungal infections, since trees typically don't rot while they are still alive. I think we can exploit this process by targeting trees that are naturally rot resistant, like my precious AYC, resulting in a source of wood that is almost entirely heartwood.
just my .02
JS
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JS. I like your .02 and agree that the type of wood is of major importance. And as well as being rot resistant the insect vulnerability is a factor to consider. On the dead standing Juniper that I just cut, I found one bug trail right on the edge of the good part of the stave. Thankfully it didn't get to the good side with no knots.
Dragon, Give it a shot and post your results
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Ok lets geek out!! ;D ;D
A really interesting paper was published on the subject of standing dead Alaskan Yellow Cedar (I don't know of this is the same study you referred to JS). In short the authors found (among other interesting things) that heartwood from Alaskan Yellow Cedar that is living or standing dead for less than 80 years, and is wetted intermittently is moderately resistant to decay from a common fungus. They also found that tree size had a lot to do with it, with the smaller trees actually being more resistant to decay than larger ones.
heres a link to it for other geeks like me ;) (its actually a pretty easy read for a scientific paper).
JS
I agree that decay resistance plays a big role, maybe more than RH. I don't think that dead sapwood becomes heartwood though, because there are chemicals called extractives(?) that are necessary to convert sapwood into heartwood, and I think the tree has to be alive to produce those chemicals.
ol' mother nature has a bottomless bag of tricks.
Gabe
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I was talking about the study I referenced in this thread.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,31589.msg418151.html#msg418151
I'm a little dizzy for some reason tonight, and the idea of reading much more is making my head spin. Tough day at work, was beating my head against an issue all day and have tomorrow to do the same.
That does sound familar though.
JS
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Very interesting topic. I don't know if this applies , but black walnut will leech out the extractives of the heartwood in to the sapwood with enough time, heat and moisture. I have staves that I stored inside where it stays fairly cool that have the nearly white sapwood, but the ones stored under the lean to have all darkened the sapwood to the point of making it hard to see the transition . When lumber outfits buy walnut logs, they use steam to speed up this sapwood transformation so that there is very little waist when the log is milled into lumber. I would also tend to believe rot resistance and climate both play significant rolls in the speed of fungal decomposition. When we cut walnut for gun stocks, we leave it lay in the weather for 3 to 5 years to darken the sapwood and the wood remains sound. I believe this can be attributed to the drier climate of central KS as well as the rot resistance of walnut. However, if walnut is left on the ground farther east it rots rather quickly. Conversely, in Western KS I know of some cottonwood logs that have been laying for 4 years now with little sign of decay. Where I live they would rot in 6 months. Don't know if this rambling contributed anything useful, just sharing what little I have experienced. Josh
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That is some interesting input Josh. Thanks for sharing
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My only exsperance is with OSAGE. It came from my old friend and bowyer CROOKETARROW. He was 1/2 IROQOUIS and told me that only OSAGE in this area(WV) WOULD MAKE A BOW form a dead standing tree. All others were to reseptable to rot and fungus's.
He's never conceder killing a big tree but I have seen him KILL SAPLEING and leave them stand for at least 2 so as long a 5 before he made a bow from them. I even seen him tie the over to have reflex in them after the sapleing dies. It seamed he always had OSAGE tree's in some stage of dieing and seasoning.
He said he was taught to do it that way. I can't say how many bows he made this way. But I built a few like this long ago. I know the dead sap wood comes off easyer alowing you to see and use the first ring a lot easyer. As far as better I could'nt tell. He just said I'm to lazy to cut and store. To much exture work than just going geting it when your ready to build your bow.
He never store stave of any kind. He's cut and season long enough to make a bow. He thoght I wasa crazy to have rooms full of cut staves.
I have made 2 bows from a HICKORY that was struck by lighting. I don't know how long it was standingv before I cut it. I cut out and strayed the staves down. I kept the staves almost 2 years before I made a bow of one and traded the other. I wasn't anything special but made a bow.
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The best piece of Hickory I've ever worked came from a thick broken limb that stayed in the top of the tree it busted out of during a heavy Ozark ice storm. It had been folded over and snapped most the way through by the storm. It lay in the top of the tree for two years before I cut it down from its perch. People talk of the metal tink sound that Osage often makes when tapped with a tool; well, this old piece of Hickory made that sound too. Additionally it was very light weight compared the other two hickory staves I made from the same tree.
I'm not sure how this might apply to the total discussion, but hey, it's another data point.
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The dead standing juniper here in Texas is not good for bows, IMO. The dead standing wood actually becomes too dry and is not very flexible, especially the heartwood. I've tried many times to make bows from the dead standing wood and each time the bows break unexpectedly. The results are always unpredictable with dead standing ashe juniper, in my experience.
Ashe juniper is more flexible after it is seasoned after being cut from a live tree. I think this has something to do with the quality or the amount of rosin in the wood, I don't know for sure. The rosin seems to be of higher quality in wood that is seasoned. One obvious way to tell is the smell of the wood. Dead standing juniper doesn't smell as good as seasoned juniper.
Branches and trunks work equally well as long as there is minimal heartwood. The heartwood is great in compression as long as the wood is wet. When dry, the heartwood is brittle. When very dry (less that 12% moisture) the sapwood becomes brittle too but not as badly as the heartwood.
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I AM NOT SURE THIS HAS ANY BEARING ON THIS DISCUSSION, BUT AT THE STUD MILL I WORKED AT, STANDING FIRE KILL EVERGREENS WERE CONSIDERED
SOLID WOOD FOR APPROX. ONE YEAR AFTER THE BURN.(NOT A HIGH HEAT CONFLAGRATION) AFTER A YEAR CHECKING AND ROT WERE A PROBLEM.