Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Spitch on March 05, 2012, 08:51:23 pm
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What is the view on using owl feathers to fletch with? Has anyone tried it, and if so did it work well?
I do not have any right now (not for a lack of trying) but they are going to be plentiful enough here soon, and just wanted to pick some experienced brains.
Thank you
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HIGHLY ILLEAGLE!! Getting caught with them (even if they are road kill) is a serious offense.
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The NAs considered the owl a bad omen and wouldn't use it's feathers for anything. If you get caught using feathers the fine is up to 10,000 dollars plus jail time. A real bad omen.
Steve
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I guess I can scratch that one off my list :-\ I am running out of native avians :(
Thank you Bevan for the fast and getting straight to the point.
Oldhippy, true on both accounts, lol
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In Mexican folklore and oral tradition owls are tied to witches, bad spirits and often considered "a woman that is a witch that has turned herself into an owl to roam the night and cause evil deeds."
Cipriano
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Also take into account that owl primaries and tail feathers are soft! They are designed for silent flight and would make poor fletching at best.
Plus, why risk a Federal conviction for third rate fletching?
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I think part of the problem stems from Saxton Pope's book. In it he tells about carrying all black arrow they shot at hawks, eagles, owls. They figured the black would be less noticeable comming up at a flying bird. They were after the birds for fletching.
Nowdays you do that, big time trouble.
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At best you would get written up with a warning for using "found" feathers, but if they even thought you shot the bird you'd really get hung. Plus then you got a reputation and every time a Conservation Officer looks at you he knows you are "that type". Better to stay scrupulously clean. Hard to fix a bad reputation.
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Any native Raptor feather is illegal.
I've been wanting to bring this up actually....an artical in the mag we all love is promoting tv feathers, as well as hawk for reproduction arrows. I'm worried to even say anything. Actually surprised to see it make it through edit w/o a note. Delete this if need be, just worried about passing on an idea that will get someone in trouble. :-X dpg
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Now that you mention it, bowtarist, I got a little heated about that as well. Here's how it played out.
I fired off an email to the editor of P.A. I got an immediate response, because that's the way he works. It turns out that the author lives in South America. Since turkey vultures are native to all of the western hemisphere and the author lives outside of the United States, then the U. S. law here does not apply to him. At that point, I replied to the editor asking him to not print my letter to the editor. I believe he will be printing a clarification in the upcoming issue to clarify the matter.
Primitive Archery does not and would not condone illegal use of raptor feathers. I have always admired this magazine for it's high ethical standards. That and the incredible bow porn on the pages!
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Glad to see this post and that article in PA clarified. I too was saying what the H double!!! :o you know, and now I know. ;D
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the federal migratory bird act is important for all of us to be aware of. you can read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migratory_Bird_Treaty_Act_of_1918 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migratory_Bird_Treaty_Act_of_1918)
it leaves few options for legal feathers. these include geese, turkey and pheasant.
of course domestic birds such as chickens and turkey and other birds not native to the us like parrots and macaw are legal.
there may be a few others i am leaving out.
as mentioned this includes picking up individual feathers and of course road kill birds. they're illegal to possess regardless of how obtained.
i used to have a few hawk and other found feathers and some road kill wings.
once i realized just how serious this is taken and how costly it can be if you are found in possession, i got rid of all of them.
i am often amazed at how many folks i see at rendezvous etc with owl or hawk feathers in their hats or otherwise adorning something they have made or wear.
something to consider with all of this is-if you are caught with illegal feathers, the game wardens will likely come to your home. they will likely search and confiscate every wild animal item in yr house.
how do i know this-had a good friend accused by a neighbor of poaching a deer-they literally ransacked his house. took all the deer meat out of his freezer. he did get some items returned(the meat was destroyed without ever giving him the chance to prove it was legally obtained) and was never charged as he had all his past tags and could verify most items(he was not poaching-his neighbor was pissed at him about something totally unrelated).
even if they are legal. if you dont have tags for those deer or hides they will take them and keep them.
antlers, hides, bones, even "legal" feathers, arrows with feathers(sometimes it is very hard to distinguish wild turkey secondaries from some owl feathers- had a man argue with me at a primitive skills gathering about this. he would not believe the feathers i had fletched a batch of arrows with were wild turkey secondaries. he swore they were too "soft" and were thus owl-how could i have "proved" they were turkey if a game warden had the same idea?)
they may take everything that appears to be of animal origin including the meat in yr freezer and you may, at a later date be given the opportunity to "prove" they were taken legally-once again keep those tags.
sorry to ramble on so but i feel it necessary to make sure those who dont know, understand the level of seriousness this issue can become.
there are plenty of sources for legal feathers. most hunters(gun or bow) do not keep turkey wings. depending on the part of the country you live in there may be turkey farms in the area-go ask em what they do with the feathers. many folks here and other archery sites are willing to trade feathers for other items. and of course you can purchase from dozens of sources.
ok i'll stop now...
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Nice one Sadie, but Iwould like to add, atleast here in Indiana and I'm fairly certain other places too, you are not allowed to pick up wild turkey road kills. If caught w/ a turkey it is considered poaching w/o a tag. That goes for road kill deer too. I've seen several deer hit, I mean SEEN them hit, and the first thing I do is call the sherrif and tell them that I want the deer. They usually show up and issue me a hand written tag or just take my name and info over the phone. I have had them just say "OK" and I then tell them that their "OK" isn't gonna be enough when I get called in by the house I'm loading this animal up off their front lawn. Got to be careful out there. Maybe we need a post of state to state rules in announcements or something? ???
Ya'll have a gooder and keep your eye out for you know who, dpgratz
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I was just about to post this and sadiejane's reply came up. I apologize for any overlap -and edited some stuff out--but there are a few additional points to make.
My understanding of the Migratory Bird Treaty act and the Endangered Species Act is that it also makes it a crime to possess feathers from wild song birds except for starlings, rock doves and English sparrows.
You can only possess feathers from your legally obtained non-migratory game birds, but stuff you make from them can’t be sold. (BTW sold is defined as an exchange of anything for c"consideration"-a legal term translated to me "..of value...") Even if legally obtained, feathers from geese and ducks (migratory) can’t be possessed-though there must be exceptions.
Even if you find and pick-up feathers-you can’t possess them.
Feathers can be obtained and used from commercial game farms that are licensed to raise and sell from otherwise protected species. They are considered domesticated under law.
These laws are strict liability. Some of the case law I looked at notes that people are guilty of violating the law regardless of lack of ANY evidence of guilty knowledge, or intent; possession is enough. That needs to be underscored by Sadiejane's example of turkey soft secondary feathers being "thought" to be owl. (Prove it....) I don't have much time to look up more case law-but I think there are provisions in the law that allow a whistle blower a large percentage of the $5,000 fine fine (that's per occurrence). Case-law is importanct since is is a refinement and applied interpretaion of laws and regulations.
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Owls are concedered hunters of the night by most eastern indain tribes. When they did lots of there hunting. Owls were held in high exstreams by shamens. OWLS ARE MY FAVORET BIRDS I even have a owl tatoo. Ofcorse I gobbler hunt.
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Not to mention that Owl isn't nearly as tasty as California Condor.
I kid, I kid.
It's actually tastier.
Kidding, again.
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Owls are concedered hunters of the night by most eastern indain tribes. When they did lots of there hunting. Owls were held in high exstreams by shamens. OWLS ARE MY FAVORET BIRDS I even have a owl tatoo. Ofcorse I gobbler hunt.
Here in the Black Hills the largest single predator of the turkey is the great horned owl. Imagine a 20 lb Merriams gobbler settled down in the roost tree for the night snoring away.....and 3 1/2 lbs of owl hits him at 30 miles an hour!!! GHO's can exert almost 120 lbs of crushing with each foot. Poor turkey, hehehe. Of course all they eat is the flesh on the head and neck since it's the easiest to get to, and by then he is full up and can't swallow another bite. Come morning, Mr. Coyote has an all you can eat buffet on his hands!
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ahh...I love the food chain. Try to show it to my boys every chance I get. ;) dpgratz
p.s. we had a bald eagle, a turkey vulture and two red tail hawks, in that order, eating on one dead opposom on our little dead end road not more than three weeks ago. It's a great story really.
Owls are one of my families favorite animals. If you ever have a red tail circling your chickens, put your hands together and make the "whoo cooks fer youoo" a couple of times and that hawk is out of there.
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Even if legally obtained, feathers from geese and ducks (migratory) can’t be possessed-though there must be exceptions.
Even if you find and pick-up feathers-you can’t possess them.
I'm not sure I'm understanding this: does this include the Canada Goose and Mallard Duck for which states open a permitted hunting season? Or the molted feathers that others have suggested collecting? Or are these birds not migratory (maybe I don't understand migratory)? Please clarify if possible.
Thank you,
John
Boise
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John:
This is quite a topic, I find it confusing also-- and I’ll try to clarify. I need to have a disclaimer though. I am licensed attorney: licensed to practice law in Michigan and Federal Court. I don’t practice law -I farm full time-but I do help out farmers and folks dealing with State and Federal regulatory law when I have time. (Also I was in county prosecutor’s offices for a time and have had some practical experience doing some game law prosecutions)…… What I am writing is not legal advice.
Some excellent summary information on your question is at:
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/birdlaws/index.htm#violate
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/about/faqs/birds/feathers.htm
You’ll see that the legal definition of “taking” includes even finding feathers, nests, eggs—and that even means molted feathers and drops. Exception: IF the taking is allowed under regulation.
My understanding is that you can possess feathers from your legally taken non-migratory game birds. The question specifically is if a person can possess feathers from migratory game birds that have been legally taken-again check the specifics of your state game laws. As I mentioned earlier-this is a strict liability law and possession is all that is needed for a citation—This gets to the sobering example Sadiejane shared—how would she prove the “soft feathers” were not from an owl? Or how does one “prove” specific feathers from non-migratory birds were legally obtained?Or worse, from species protected under the Migratory Bird Act?
Migratory is also defined legally. For example resident birds that are a migratory species are considered migratory. Each state has lists of protected species-and I listed earlier the only species I could find that can be legally taken without a permit—unless specified by an individual state.
It is very important to check your State’s game laws…typical state summaries will read like this involving resident waterfowl (for example):
Canada geese, like all native waterfowl in the United States, are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Under these laws, it is illegal to hunt, kill, sell, purchase, or possess migratory birds or their parts (feathers, nests, eggs, etc.) except as permitted by regulations adopted by the Secretary of the Interior, USFWS (U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service) and the Maryland DNR (Department of Natural Resources. In Maryland, management responsibility for Canada geese is shared by the USFWS, USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture), and the Maryland DNR. Special permits are required for some of the control methods discussed here.
Like everyone else here-I’m concerned about this topic. Regulatory laws often defy common sense....... I think it is important to be aware and again reference the excellent comments made by others earlier; from their practical experience- if I get some time I can do more complete research on this topic if anyone is interested. Where would that get posted?????
Thanks,
Ron
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Thanks Ron. Not being sarcastic but there are allot of laws that defy common sense in my opinion. That said, I just look at feathers and wish I could use them. I am given goose wings and turkey wings by friends that hunt them with proper permits. But after reading this, I am a little concerned about using anything except obvious commercial products.
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Ron, we are always interested in the legal(and illegal for obvious reasons) aspects of our sport. It would be great if you have the time to post any info you can find. I will sticky it up top for all to read.
Bevan, I believe you would have to get cought up in a "sting" for the turkey or Canada goose feathers you use to be a problem and having your sources vouch for you would probably clear you of any liability. Plus, I'd almost be willing to bet that you and I probably know more than the average game warden about the legality of the feathers we use. I've asked local game wardens about specific common game laws that they couldn't answer or just didn't want to answer. ::)
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Thanks Pat--will do.
Just a couple of comments.
The only time I have seen anyone get tagged under these sorts of laws was when they gave a DNR enforcement officer grief-or they had violated our State hunting/fishing laws and the State choose to extend the criminal complaint. So-the possession issue was an add-on to more serious offenses. Or used as an entry to provide probable cause for a search triggered by some suspected gross offense. The other cases were when people were-innocently-selling art work that had feathers from birds protected under the Migratory Bird act-colored song bird feathers-in those cases someone looking at the artwork called it in.
I think it is important to be aware. Definitely be aware of the harsh laws regarding raptors and the issues dealing with migratory birds. The non-migratory birds-turkey, pheasant, grouse are in a different category and just check the game laws. From what I can see the primary problem would be the illegal sale. The PA crowd is pretty darned knowledgable, and also respectful of nature
back to work--kidding and calving--- fun times
Ron
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That's good info Ron.
Good luck freshining, kidding. I used to be the one spending the night out in the barn while the dairy goats were freshining. Some good times some stressfull, all memories of the farm life and animal husbandry.
dpgratz
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Thanks, Ron, for taking the time to walk through that. I've got a list of poultry farmers I'm going to contact and see if they might be a good source in the right season; I'm safe with farm raised turkey, right?
Its a good idea, Pat. This thread kept me out of trouble. I've been watching for roadkill feathers and could have put myself on the wrong side of the law.
Thanks,
John
Boise
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Wow! That was great Ron. And thank you to everone else....Did not know thus was such an important issue....
Going to look up Cali game laws now :-\
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Most of the migratory bird laws are federal with state support. The main migratory bird law was passed in the early 1900s to stop the feather trade to adorn womens hats. It is a good law to protect all birds and in nature, nothing is wasted! Not even molted feathers ;)
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Heading to Raptor Fest 2012 in an hour. They will be releasing a rehabilitated snowy owl at noon. 2000 people are expected to attend.
Link to news article since I think Raptor Fest's servers crashed
http://www.glensfallsregion.com/event/winter-raptor-fest-33693/
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RDk-
or any others who might know the answer(s)
i was thinking about this same issue while working on a cupla deer hides a pal gave me. he had picked them up free of charge from the processing place in his small town during deer season last fall. they've been in the freezer since.
i was in the alley scrapping off excess meat/tallow and a fella i didnt know in a pick up truck drove down the alley.
i waved he didnt-but it was pretty obvious i was working some sorta hide. and it is not deer season of course.
and i have nothing to show where these hides came from. once i get em tanned they will look more or less like something commercial...
but in the meantime they are raw hides.( for now i just have em salted and drying till i can get to work on em)
anyhoos i was thinking about asking my friends to get something in writing from the processor "just in case"
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Good point Sadie. I am working on a deal with a local game processor. If I get a chance, I might make up some kind of form to print off and have them sign with the data on it.
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I've added this to the list of questions--I hope to start looking at case law this weekend.
I like being cautious-just in case.
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EXCELLENT point, Sadie-my-lady! I just realized the explainin' I'd have to do when I have three or four trophy deer heads lined up to go in the pot for european mounts! For one thing, I'd look like a trophy poacher - the worst kind of poacher. But secondly, in South Dakota, I need a taxidermists license to do that kinda of stuff for money. I would also need to register for a tax I.D. and register the company with the Attorney General. But I don't charge for those services, I only do it for friends. Ok, now how do I prove I am not charging??? Prove that I didn't get slipped a $50 bill or a nice bottle of 12 yr old Scotch? I know it would be just as hard to prove I did, but who wants the stink of suspicion attached to their name? How do you wash that off?
I guess I could make up a simple form stating "I, the undersigned, have not paid John Halverson to do the euro mount of my deer".
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About 20 years ago now, I got pulled over w/ several, 5+, dryed deer hides, like rawhide w/ the hair on. The officer called it in and after some time they decided tha tsince there was no meat on the hides I was OK. ?? I don't know, but that's what happened.
I've got a great story about dog too, if we're sittin around the Classic, someone remind me to tell it. It'd be like a book on here.
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Good information. Ron made a good point about discretion of the individual officer and your attitude at the time of any incident. I went to college and got a degree in Conservation Law Enforcement here in Indiana where we spent countless hours studying and interpreting State and Federal code. Most classes were taught by present and former State and Federal Game Wardens that would always end any discussion on laws with "Ignorance is no excuse". Another thing to consider when using feathers from legally harvested game, is that as long as you are not offering whole birds or meat for sale, then after the processing or reduction process parts of the animal can be used or in trade. I would be curious to see how well the feathers could be accounted for according to daily possession limits or any other possession limit by law enforcement. The officers I know would not waste their time quantifying feathers unless they had reason to believe that the birds were harvested illegally.
I've hunted waterfowl up and down the Mississippi Flyway and have always been at state of federal check stations that have local fly tiers there to collect feathers for tying flies for fishing. Locally, a man hangs out at the check station with several officers and the biologist present encouraging hunter to share feathers from their harvest for this man. I have no problem with, but it parallels the legal issues stated already pertaining to possession etc. I don't even know if the guy posesses a valid license and stamps.
Sorry to ramble ,but clarification on this might fall into the grey area.
Tracy
There use to be a guy at the Smithsonian in D.C. that could identify just about any feather from any bird around the world. USFWS use to have him testify in court on major avian cases because of his high level of expertise.
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Good information. Ron made a good point about discretion of the individual officer and your attitude at the time of any incident. I went to college and got a degree in Conservation Law Enforcement here in Indiana where we spent countless hours studying and interpreting State and Federal code. Most classes were taught by present and former State and Federal Game Wardens that would always end any discussion on laws with "Ignorance is no excuse". Another thing to consider when using feathers from legally harvested game, is that as long as you are not offering whole birds or meat for sale, then after the processing or reduction process parts of the animal can be used or in trade. I would be curious to see how well the feathers could be accounted for according to daily possession limits or any other possession limit by law enforcement. The officers I know would not waste their time quantifying feathers unless they had reason to believe that the birds were harvested illegally.
I've hunted waterfowl up and down the Mississippi Flyway and have always been at state of federal check stations that have local fly tiers there to collect feathers for tying flies for fishing. Locally, a man hangs out at the check station with several officers and the biologist present encouraging hunter to share feathers from their harvest for this man. I have no problem with, but it parallels the legal issues stated already pertaining to possession etc. I don't even know if the guy posesses a valid license and stamps.
Sorry to ramble ,but clarification on this might fall into the grey area.
Tracy
There use to be a guy at the Smithsonian in D.C. that could identify just about any feather from any bird around the world. USFWS use to have him testify in court on major avian cases because of his high level of expertise.
Always err on the side of caution and if/when you are checked by the law be cooperative and friendly. Nothing fires up a Law Dog as much as when someone they are speaking with starts to clam up or tries to be cagey. Set's off their "spidey-sense"!
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So with all this I still can't figure out whether goose feathers are legal or not?
What say you?
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Most likely they will be legal. Err on the side of caution and call your local Conservation Officer, explain what you are doing with the feathers, how you plan to obtain them, and ask him for a ruling on the legality.
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bhenders- I'm working on these questions and will post something as soon as I can. I don't want to answer any questions since I've found some contradictory regulations (surprize.......) and have formally re
I just suggest looking at the references posted earlier.
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(that reply got away from me....)
.....and have formally requested clarification.
Tracy you wrote "Another thing to consider when using feathers from legally harvested game, is that as long as you are not offering whole birds or meat for sale, then after the processing or reduction process parts of the animal can be used or in trade. " Do you have a reference for this statement?
Thanks,
Ron
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Just off of memory of repeated reading of my state regs while waiting for the ducks to fly.
There is also reference in the Indiana Code about the definition of poss. Limits and when an animal is no longer part of it. It is state and not federal. If I had the time to peruse federal code on the issue, I would like to see the wording and language about this. This is not limited to PA, and I'm sure other sportsmen groups have dealt with this same issue, especially fisherman making their own tackle.
Tracy
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Thanks Tracy-I'll get that information and get back with it...
Thanks again
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One loophole to the "possession of feathers" laws is the immunity that fly tiers have. If you have a fly tying business or tie your own flies, you may posses all sorts of feathers with the exception of the raptor feathers, of course. This loophole has been around for a very long time and you will occasionally see people selling migratory game bird feathers with the disclaimer, "for fly tying purposes only".
You need a Federal Tax ID number and a business permit from your state to sell sporting goods if you want to go into the fly tying business.
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We had a similar issue, not with feather, but with a whole live bird. Last August, my son found a baby Eastern Kingbird on the lawn and we could not locate the nest. We took it in, researched it's diet, and raised it until it was fully fledged. We do not have a wildlife rehabilitator's permit. Further research revealed that they tend to migrate in mid-September and we were worried that "Tweetle Dee" had missed the boat. My wife called the local conservation officer and shared the whole story. He informed her that we were breaking the law. When she asked about keeping it for the winter and letting it go in the spring, he told her that then we would be breaking the law for the whole winter. It took about four days to set her free. The first couple times, she stayed out all day, then chased me around the yard in the evening because she was hungry and we took her inside for the night. Then she stayed out overnight, and I would feed her outside a couple times, until she finally didn't come back one day.
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hi,
owls are bad luck native americans would never use owl feathers for thier arrows , anything that represents the night is bad luck, goose feathers work great and they are waterproof
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hi,
owls are bad luck native americans would never use owl feathers for thier arrows , anything that represents the night is bad luck,
That is a pretty blanket statement and I do not think you can use such over-generalizations to explain ALL tribal groups. Actually, IIRC, I have seen some original arrows that were fletched with owl. Anyway... as stated, they are a poor material to use do to their softness and they are illegal as well.
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hi,
owls are bad luck native americans would never use owl feathers for thier arrows , anything that represents the night is bad luck, goose feathers work great and they are waterproof
That is definitely a statement that cannot apply to all Native Americans. Kinda like saying all Europeans smell like cheese and can't defend their own country. The Lakota specifically refer to the owl as a warning, a harbinger of change. And within the Lakota their are differing opinions to boot!!! I've seen two guys from Pine Ridge come to blows over just that subject. I guess Icarus, the great horned owl that was the cause of this altercation was BOTH good and bad luck! They guy that lost the tooth had bad luck and the guy that knocked it out had good luck!
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American Museum of Natural History...
http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/common/public_access.cfm?database=north
Put owl as a search term and search in "material" There are 3 pages of items that come up made from owl feathers and parts. None of them there are arrows. I have not recently looked through all the arrows in their collections database, but I imagine you may find owl feathers on some. Perhaps I will do this search when more time permits.
BTW... the above search tool for the AMNH collections is pretty cool and fun if you like museum stuff
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Just for S&Gs I searched owl fletching on a popular engine and found several other good discussions on the subject. Some even liking to use it even if they have to re-fletch once in awhile due to it's durability issue. Very quiet I read though. I guess the bottom line is...if you're in the lower 48, most people are not allowed to posses even one feather legally. In other parts of the world, including Alask, by the blog I read, says they work fine. One statement that was made was, raptor feathers are not as stiff as wild turkey and wild turkey are not as stiff as domestic turkey. So I guess if stiffness is what you want, domestic turkey is what you're after. One the other hand, a well tuned arrow can be shot a pretty good distance w/ no fletching at all. >:D dpgratz
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hate to say this but Alaska is subject to US federal laws as well.
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hate to say this but Alaska is subject to US federal laws as well.
like I said, ...I searched "owl fletching" and that is what I read. Try it out, you can parboily find it, I just did it this afternoon. ;)
Bevan, I'll PM you the link, anyone else interested, PM me. Not that big a deal really.
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Yeah, USF&W will definitely be surprised if someone tells them they have no jurisdiction in Alaska! >:D
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Possession of owls feather is illegal throughout the US. Exceptions in Alaska are the same as the rest of the US, i.e. by Federal Permit (education, research) or for Native Americans under the "Eagle Feather Law."
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There just happens to be a lot more Native American crafts made from restricted materials available in Alaska, so it can seem like things are legal there that are not in the lower 48. You can have whale baleen and ivory products from Alaska, but only if they were produced and sold by documented native artisans. If you purchase such items, it's imperative that you retain the documentation.
Julian