Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: bushman on February 21, 2012, 07:44:12 pm
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Is there a difference between ELB and EWB or are they interchangeable? Thanks
Bushman
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ELB is a Victorian sport bow. EWB is a bow from the 11th to 16th century, an EWB is a type of Longbow but specific to one used in war.
Obviously the weights, sizes, and woods of both bows are different too.
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Ok thanks for clarifying that Ian.
Bushman
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They are also distinctly different in their final tiller profile. An EWB is generally tillered to bend 'full compass' with a more or less circular tiller. An ELB does not, usually remaining somewhat unbending in the grip, with a slightly elliptical tiller.
An EWB is designed to cast heavy arrows a good distance, where an ELB is made for shooting target arrows.
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While it's true that Victorian sport bows were mostly ELBs, I wouldn't say that the ELB is strictly a Victorian sport bow.
The name derives from the bows used by the English in battles between the 14th and 16th century. The EWB has several distinctive characteristics. The only examples available to us are those from the Mary Rose and thus the English Warbow Society defines a warbow as one that is 70+ pounds at 32 inches at the very minimum and at least 72 inches in length. The bow is tillered full compass, meaning that it bends through the handle and the arc is more circular than elliptical. The belly is rounded and the dimensions follows the 5/8ths rule for depth/width throughout the bows limbs. While period warbows were most often yew, other woods were also used and today laminated woods are accepted. Warbows are not to have unnatural reflex though heat/steam straightening are acceptable. Adding a leather grip doesn't negate it being a warbow as long as it bends through the handle.
Basically, if you make a bow and it meets that criteria, then you can probably call it an English Warbow and not get your head chopped off. ;)
The English longbow is similar in most ways such as the 5/8ths rule, but could be less than 72" (but not by much as it is still a "long" bow), less than 70 lbs at 32 inches, and can have a non-bending fat or raised handle. Given the non-bending handle, the tiller will often be more elliptical.
On a side note, though not technically a part of any definitions I've ever run across, both the ELB and EWB most often have horn nocks. Most horn nocks seen today are shaped with the string groove cut across the back, but evidence from the Mary Rose clearly indicates that the nocks all had the groove on the side.
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The two types are almost completely different. I wasn't trying to give a full description, but more an overview. I think what I have said defined it fairly well. In what case would an English longbow not come from Victorian design?
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There IS overlap between the two.
The Self Yew ELBs I make (of generally 40 - 70#) are full compass tillered and are more closely related to Warbows rather than the Victorian style.
I would hate them to be called Victorian style ELBs, but they are self evidently not Warbows.
I think you need to look at the actual individual bow to hang a name on it.
After all you could arbitarilly say that laminated longbows are Victorian, but of course some Warbows are laminated too.
Del
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I see the 5/8ths and 32” draw truism quoted quite often. It’s right up there with ’The medieval longbow was the machine gun of the middle ages’. But what is the evidence? Seeing as we only have examples of Tudor yew bows (yew being of high modular elasticity). These bows were also made from small diameter staves, so how do we know about all the other bows of different woods? It seems to me that medieval bowyers either dogmatically used the same design as a yew bow for whatever wood they were using OR they adapted the design to obtain the best from any given wood, of which they would have considerable experience and plenty of resources. The 5/8ths rule is a modern one that the BL-BS use for Victorian target bows.
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Jeremy, I take it you have seen the MR bow in Cardiff museum. It was in a case and in dim light but, I would guess that some parts of that bow could well be flatter in section that what would be allowed today. To be honest I wasn't overwhelmed by the bow, I would guess that it could have had a hinge when drawn, as the top limb had a flat spot towards the nock. It's cross section was not typical of the reproductions today.
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If you make them in the style of warbows then call them lighter replicas. :laugh:
The origin of the two bows were different, there was a period when the bow fell out of use and was then re-adopted for sport, I don't think you can have something in-between the two.
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Yes, you are quite right Ian, its well outside the 5/8ths and it's very flat too. It's not a typical MR bow but I think it gives a glimpse of what a white wood bow may have looked like that was strong in tension and not so strong as yew in compression.
I have some images that are not great but give some Idea. the side against the metal stand is the back and is more crowned than the belly.
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Image0073-1.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Image0072.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280/yeomanbowman/Image0074-2.jpg)
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Yeah that's the one, would be interesting to get some dimensions. The section was almost triangular if I remember, I cant imagine the bow could be much more than 100lb, but as you say perfect shape for a meane wood.
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Huh, I thought an EWB was a type of ELB. Whows WTH I know.
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Huh, I thought an EWB was a type of ELB. Whows WTH I know.
I would consider that you were correct. The term “English Long Bow” was applied to the bows used in Victorian England, perhaps with the belief that the English longbows they read about were always made like theirs. The Mary Rose bows demonstrated otherwise, so the new term “Warbow" was invented. It is really ignorant to fail to recognize that the MR bows were indeed longbows and they were English. Mediaeval longbows of higher quality than military issue were also made with lighter draw weights for hunting or sport shooting, or even war. We can see examples in Denmark, Ireland and Germany. All longbows were a minimum length of a man’s height and were to be drawn to at least 32 inches. Yew of various cross sections was the preferred wood for all self bows since the stone age..The present so-called “English Long Bow”, because it is stiff at middle and ends, can be expected to break at that draw length. The bow in Cardiff doesn’t sound like MR. I believe all MR bows had round conical tips to hold horn side-nocks.
Cheers,
Erik
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It is an MR bow and well worth a look, although I would bring a torch as they have it under mood lighting.
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[ All longbows were a minimum length of a man’s height and were to be drawn to at least 32 inches. Yew of various cross sections was the preferred wood for all self bows since the stone age..The present so-called “English Long Bow”, because it is stiff at middle and ends, can be expected to break at that draw length. The bow in Cardiff doesn’t sound like MR. I believe all MR bows had round conical tips to hold horn side-nocks.
Cheers,
Erik
[/quote
Hi Erik,
Just to say that this bow in the National Museum of Wales is currently on loan from the Royal Armouries and is from the Mary Rose.
This bow is quite short but I guess could be called 'man sized', as are those bows which were 69ins or so in length (tip to tip and therefore shorter nock to nock). Also of note is the belly which is completely flat in sections (though overall is a shallow elliptical profile with a 'sharp' edge
Cheers,
Alistair
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Huh, I thought an EWB was a type of ELB. Whows WTH I know.
I would consider that you were correct. The term “English Long Bow” was applied to the bows used in Victorian England, perhaps with the belief that the English longbows they read about were always made like theirs. The Mary Rose bows demonstrated otherwise, so the new term “Warbow" was invented. It is really ignorant to fail to recognize that the MR bows were indeed longbows and they were English. Mediaeval longbows of higher quality than military issue were also made with lighter draw weights for hunting or sport shooting, or even war. We can see examples in Denmark, Ireland and Germany. All longbows were a minimum length of a man’s height and were to be drawn to at least 32 inches. Yew of various cross sections was the preferred wood for all self bows since the stone age..The present so-called “English Long Bow”, because it is stiff at middle and ends, can be expected to break at that draw length. The bow in Cardiff doesn’t sound like MR. I believe all MR bows had round conical tips to hold horn side-nocks.
Cheers,
Erik
Hello Eric,
The minimum dimension of a 32" arrow would be at odds with the vast majority of existing medieval and Tudor arrows which, as you know, were under this length. If it were a new comer to the warbow I would have ignored the longer draw estimate but as it’s you I’m interested as to what's your theory for the longer length, please?
If I can add to what has been said of the Cardiff bow, I spoke with the Medieval Curator and he confirmed that it was indeed a MR bow on loan from the Tower.
Jeremy
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Erik,
Haven't you been to the MR museum in Portsmouth? I thought you went there last year? Anyway, as I think you know, most of the arrows are about 30"- 31" from valley of nock to base of head.
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Hi Jeremy,
I didn’t mean the minimum dimension of the arrow, I meant the draw length of which the longbow should be capable. The main advantage of a longbow is having the mass to effectively shoot a longer heavier arrow. My impression was that all still existing longbows found with accompanying arrows , whether including the Roman period Danish finds or not, the “vast majority” were close to that length, long enough to draw to the ear, as adb points out, most being 30-31”. Which arrows did you have in mind ?
My ‘theory’ is partly from known dimensions, partly from mediaeval advice for longbow arrow length of ten fists, which for me, makes a 31 ˝ “ arrow, and some people have bigger fists. It is mentioned that some archers shorten their arrows in order to better draw to the barbs or shoulder of the arrowhead. There was one exception. The fifth act of Edward v prescribed for Irishmen who used short bows and arrows, bows equal to the shooter’s height and arrows of “three fourths of the standard” [yard].
So apparently the Cardiff bow was not made for horn nocks ? I was told that remains of a MR arrow 37” long had been found. Does anyone have info on that ?
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Hi Erik,
Another factor that needs consideration is whether the arrows were all drawn to the head. Not necessarily medieval/Tudor Anglo Welsh ones either. For instance Otzi had a finished arrow of 33 1/2" despite his diminutive height of 5' 5". I'm sure the Mary Rose arrow arrows were designed to be fully drawn as Ascham’s advise a practical experiment would confirm. I believe that one of the Nydam ship arrows was 37". Perhaps for a fire arrows like its Mary Rose counterpart? Regarding the Medieval arrow length I was refering to, the only complete one is just under 29" and some of the Tudor MR arrows being as short as 27" with most around 30", as you say.