Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Matt A on February 08, 2012, 01:50:54 am

Title: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Matt A on February 08, 2012, 01:50:54 am
i would like to make primitive arrows. I have lots of red dogwood around, and i harvested a bundle of it last winter. I scraped the bark off with a utility knife and tied them all together to dry, now how do I straighten and smooth them. heat gun and sandpaper???
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Lone500 on February 08, 2012, 02:04:04 am
Pretty much. never tried straitening dogwood myself but i imagine it doesnt go to badly.

Always liked dogwood. guess its my favorite tree. I would love to have a bow out of one if a nice dogwood staff even exists lol.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Matt A on February 08, 2012, 02:10:09 am
probably not. at least as far as ours is concerned here in MN. not even an inch round, just brush basically
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Pat B on February 08, 2012, 02:16:30 am
There are tree dogwoods and multi stemmed shrub dogwoods, all true dogwoods(cornus) but in two different forms.
  I use our gas kitchen stove to heat shoot shafts for straightening.A heat gun will work as well. I like to oil the shaft first with cooking oil so I don't scorch them while straightening.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Josh B on February 08, 2012, 02:28:46 am
I managed to find two red osier staves, one was 2" thick at the big end the other was 2 1/2 "  thick .  I got in a hurry on the smaller one and ruined it.  I waited a month, debarked it and roughed it in, then sealed it all around.  A week later when I pulled it out, it had almost split itself in two lengthwise.  I'm letting the other one cure on its own with the bark on.  I hope it works a little better that way.  Josh
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Matt A on February 08, 2012, 02:55:48 am
when I have them straightened then start sanding do I spine first then sand or visa versa?
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Lone500 on February 08, 2012, 02:59:53 am
finish then spine them.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Pat B on February 08, 2012, 11:34:15 am
With shoot shafting the actual spine is not that critical. The natural taper will make the effective spine about 10# less than the actual spine. Leave the arrows a little long and reduce the effective spine by 5# per inch over 28".   I generally use my spine tester to find the stiff side of a shoot shaft. That side goes against the bow. Other than that I don't actually spine out the shafts.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Matt A on February 09, 2012, 12:24:50 am
alrighty i'll give it a whirl. just cut a bunch more and tied them up to dry today.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Pat B on February 09, 2012, 12:50:39 am
One thing you need to know if you don't already...cut only second year growth or older. When a shoot sprouts it grows to it's untimate height the first growth season and has leaves along its stem. The second growth year small branches grow from the leaf scars. You only want to cut shoots with branches on them. First year growth will make arrows but they will be flimsey and unstable, needing constant straightening. Second year or older growth, because of 2(or more)growth rings are stiffer and more stable. Once straightened and tempered they stay straight.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Matt A on February 09, 2012, 01:21:33 am
k, thanks! the ones I cut were the size of my pinkie finger or bigger and had branches
 so hopefully I won't have any trouble
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Pat B on February 09, 2012, 01:24:16 am
Sounds good!  ;)
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: George Tsoukalas on February 09, 2012, 10:13:16 am
Cut the shoots a half inch wide. Bundle them with duct tape, etc... 6 per bundle or so. Here's the key to handling any natural shoot arrow...unbundle them every few days and straighten. Eventually they will begin to respond to corrections. My goal is to not to have to use heat to straighten. Info on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: bowtarist on February 09, 2012, 10:20:05 pm
Sweet site George.  First time I've been on there, but not the last.  dpgratz
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: crooketarrow on February 11, 2012, 12:13:05 pm
   I cut alternet dog wood where it sprouts from a base and have maultable shoots comeing up. By the time the get to 3/8's there a couple years old. On all shoots this first couple ,3 feet are clean and straight no limbs.
 I did some as GEORGE and straighten as they dry. But can't see any difference in just leting them season 6 months to a year then straighten,sand ,heat the very bad kinks if needed. TEMPER them restraighten that last time they stay straight and don't have to restraight to often if at all. I've did lots where I never tempered and some where I temper first after I removed the bark before I started. I can't see any difference.
  I think the key to not haveing to restraighten is to start out with a nice straight shoot. Not that you can't make arrows from bent shoots I did 100's. Just like bows the better the materal you start with the better the finished product.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Matt A on February 13, 2012, 02:37:50 am
how do you temper? just heat the shafts really hot?
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: footfootfoot on February 14, 2012, 08:42:41 pm
We are lousy with Red Osier Dogwood here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornus_sericea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornus_sericea) I've been only cutting the straightest stems that are between 24" and 40" I figure with anything too short I can always foot it or use it for the kids.

I've been binding some of them in such a way as to have any curved parts oppose another curved part. I also periodically untie them and hand straighten them a bit. After they've dried (with the bark on) for a few weeks they are less resilient and don't spring back as readily as when fresh. Kind of like an old carrot in the bottom on the crisper.  I also scraped a few of them right away to compare how they respond to drying, straightening, and so forth.

The stems I left the bark on while drying were much easier to scrape since the wood shrank and pulled away from the bark.

I've harvested about two or three dozen shafts and today I also picked up a couple of stems of either Arrowwood viburnum or Honeysuckle, and a few Rose stems.

Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Dictionary on February 14, 2012, 09:27:12 pm
Maybe i didnt read this correctly.

You guys pick shoots that have other shoots growing from them?

Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: footfootfoot on February 14, 2012, 10:53:24 pm
yeah, today I got a bunch that were about 5/16 at the thin end and 3/8 to 7/16 at the basal end. Along the shoot were tiny alternate branches about 1/16 to 1/8 in diameter and 4 or 5 inches long. Some of the shoots terminated in a fork. I would cut the forks off, leaving the crotch, figuring that would be extra strong and if the shaft were parallel enough I could cut my nock into the crotch for extra strength.

Next time I'll shoot some photos of the branches in situ and then again after trimming.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Pat B on February 15, 2012, 01:11:20 am
Dictionary, the shoots that foot3 cut were second year growth and appropriate for arrow shafting. The first year a shoot grows to it ultimate height and has leaves along the stim. The next year small branches grow from the leaf scars left from last years leaves. The first year growth will make an arrow but it will be flimsey and not stay straight.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: crooketarrow on February 15, 2012, 12:51:26 pm
  HIT I use the oven on 350% and when they turn color but no burn. This will cause warping so a finile straighting a little has to be done. I have also used heat guns, stove top burners. Again only to they chage color.
  DIC no I try not to cut shoots that has limbs. I cut whats called around here alternet dogwood. It sends up shoots from a center shurb. They grow use'lly 26 to 30 inchs untill they have a limb. I try to cut mine that has no limbs.
  There heavyer than most other shoots, alot harder and stay straight. There is some straighting but very seldom do I need to use any heat so your times really spent on sanding cuting groves and knocks. I made arrows from everything local and then some. What I would say alot.  But to me none beats dogwood.
Title: Re: noob - dogwood arrows
Post by: Pat B on February 15, 2012, 01:02:22 pm
Crooket, is that alternate leaf dogwood(Cornus alternafolia), more of a small tree than a shrub type?  I have that here too but never tried it.