Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dictionary on December 29, 2011, 12:39:38 pm
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I've been roaming through many threads and noticed most people here use either an endless or flemish style bowstring twist with jigs and synthetic bowstring materials. I have the TBB Vol.2 on strings and can't really understand these two styles of bowstring making nor do i really care to learn them. The style of bows i'm interested is the simple 62 inch Eastern Woodlands Bow 45 pound D Bow and would like to make accompany it with a simple, easy to make bowstring.
I'm thinking i might first try some b50 bowstring and then try a twisted squirrel rawhide string. But am really unsure how one makes it without going to the endless or flemish style with these fancy jig contraptions. The tbb vol.2 describes either making a "single ply cord bowstring" or "Straight Ply bowstring" with two or more plies.
I'm imagining this means taking 2 bundles of b50 and reverse twisting them the entire length for "Straight ply". Or taking the 2 bundles as one and just twisting them in one direction their entire length for "single ply cordage". This thread may be very dumb since i may have just answered my own question But i guess i'm really asking this for verification because i'm kind of confused.
In this video it looks like he is twisting a bowstring at 4:34 and strings the bow at 5:19. Is this a single ply cord of natural fibers for a bowstring? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er1ti_qPtko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er1ti_qPtko)
Ok thanks PrimitiveArcher.
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I make flemish twist strings without using a jig.
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I'm imagining this means taking 2 bundles of b50 and reverse twisting them the entire length for "Straight ply".
This is how I make my 'long' strings for tillering. I just start with strands of B50, twist a loop in one end, then twist the plys the rest of the length of the string I want. Tie a bowline knot at the other end for the length of stave I am working.
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I'm imagining this means taking 2 bundles of b50 and reverse twisting them the entire length for "Straight ply".
This is how I make my 'long' strings for tillering. I just start with strands of B50, twist a loop in one end, then twist the plys the rest of the length of the string I want. Tie a bowline knot at the other end for the length of stave I am working.
this is how i make all my strings. i do have a dedicated one for long string that is plenty long enough for any bow i might make. reuse it all the time. when time for a short string make one for that particular bow. use no jig, just add about 10" to the length of the bow and reverse twist the entire length...seems to work here. the bow knot ends up on the bottom limb when that is determined.
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So with b50 or any cordage for that matter, wrapping(overlapping) is only used with 2 or more plies?
And also what is lost by only using one ply of 15 strands rather than a 2 ply of 7 strands on each ply?
I hope that makes any sense.
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Only ways I would know to make loops if you use 1 ply of 15 strands would be to twist the whole lot together and tie a bowline on each end, or make a endless loop string (back to using a jig).
Flemish jigs are simple to make. They are used for laying out the plys to the length, not used in the actual string twisting.
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things always seem complex when you dont understand them , it takes me 15mins to make a single loop adjustable flemish twist string, without a jig, just a hook on the wall. Probably quicker and simpler than a squirrel skin string......definnately better, but maybe not so 'primitive'
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I'm imagining this means taking 2 bundles of b50 and reverse twisting them the entire length for "Straight ply".
This is how I make my 'long' strings for tillering. I just start with strands of B50, twist a loop in one end, then twist the plys the rest of the length of the string I want. Tie a bowline knot at the other end for the length of stave I am working.
I do the same as Bevan. I haven't made a jig for measuring the string yet. I just cut a long length of B-50 and cut each one after that an inch shorter. You don't need a fancy jig for endless loop strings either. I started out with a 2x4 with two screws in it. Now I use two shelf brackets with adjustable bolt hooks instead of the screws.
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I can't comment on the other string types because I have only ever made the flemish style. But I taught myself to do a flemish twist string in an afternoon, its quite simple. The jig isn't necessary, it just helps to get the individual strands staggered so that they don't end all in one place, as this would make it so the string it wouldn't twist back into itself as well when forming the loops. I can whip one out in about fifteen minutes, and my jig only took about 30 minutes to make.
To do it without a jig, just get the strands together that you need, cut them to overall length (compensating for the length that will be lost in forming the loops), and then cut one strand 1/2 inch or maybe 3/4 inch back from the end, then cut another strand another 1/2 -3/4 inch back, and so on. Then you can continue on with forming the loops and stuff.
But the jig is really easy to build and use. It looks more complicated that it is. If you are going to make any number of strings I would recommend building and using the jig. Plus the flemish style strings look pretty snappy and don't require any serving to hold them together
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I built a compact jig that fits in the tackle box I keep the string making stuff in. That way I can loose everything in one go.
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The strands are twisted in one direction individually and in the other direction when put together
in a string. The twists are what keeps the string together.
My hands are pretty messed up and all the twisting was painful so I asked halfeye (Rich) how he
made his strings and from his good advice I experimented down to the following.
Use 70# artificial sinew. For hunting weight bows(50#) I use 6-7 strands cause I like fat strings.
I twist 2 or 3 at a time to make the strands then twist all strands in the opposite direction to make
the string. Tie a bowline or double overhand loop for the top limb and use a bowyers knot for the
bottom.
Lane
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You guys keep saying the flemish is quite simple to learn but i've read the tbb vol 2. on the flemish strings back and front and still can't figure out whats going on and have found the videos i've seen extremely difficult to grasp. Many of you make it sound like there is no way to make a bowstring without doing the flemish style. That is very despairing for a new bowyer, because it doesn't look easy, not to a slow person like me
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A Flemish twist is much easier to make than the TBB2 shows it to be... When I make mine I take to bundles of b-50 that are well waxed, usually 7-8 strands per bundle. Starting 8 inches from the end of the bundle, start reverse twisting them together for 3 inches. then fold this over to form a loop. now match the two bundles back up and reverse twist them together, sealing off your loop. Do this same thing on the other side. Then simple twist the loops in opposite directions to lengthen or shorten the string. A finished string can be made in 20 minutes including the serving with practice. This is hard to describe without pictures so Look on youtube for some vids... There are some good ones out there. Hope this helps.
Jon
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Buy, borrow, or trade for Doing the twist DVD. It covers several types of string making and is very detailed. It is a lot more help than reading about it.
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Making Flemish strings is fairly simple !
Explaining how to do them is not !!
Then add in the little ways we each like to do them a little bit different and --confusion !!
Most of us had someone standing there coaching us ,that makes all the difference in the world!
The moral of the story is come to a event where someone would be glad to show you or find a neighbor that knows how !
Don't be discouraged !
Guy
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A Flemish twist is much easier to make than the TBB2 shows it to be... When I make mine I take to bundles of b-50 that are well waxed, usually 7-8 strands per bundle. Starting 8 inches from the end of the bundle, start reverse twisting them together for 3 inches. then fold this over to form a loop. now match the two bundles back up and reverse twist them together, sealing off your loop. Do this same thing on the other side. Then simple twist the loops in opposite directions to lengthen or shorten the string. A finished string can be made in 20 minutes including the serving with practice. This is hard to describe without pictures so Look on youtube for some vids... There are some good ones out there. Hope this helps.
Jon
You made that sound very simple Jon. I know how to do a simple reverse twist. Once you get both loops done with the reverse twist, then what? You said "Then simple twist the loops in opposite directions to lengthen or shorten the string."
Also why do you have to have loops on both sides? Why not a loop on one side and the other reverse twisted to a length longer than the bowstring, knot it, and then use some type of hitch to string the bow that way?
And sorry for all of the many questions. Primitivearcher makes me feel like a complete idiot. I'll try not to get discouraged but when i witness so much extraordinary skill by many of the bowyers on this site, and me trying to grasp a skill they look at as easy, it makes me feel like more of an idiot.
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It is quite simple. You can also do what you said. I prefer two loops but some prefer a timber hitch on one side and a loop on the other. Once you have both ends reversed twisted the center of the string will still be two strands and the loops will come undone. Therefore you must twist, (not reverse twist, just a simple twist) the whole string to join these two strands to form a single string. Good luck.
Jon
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I used this series of videos to learn to do a flemish twist string. I found them better than most other vids out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4x7W71_MQQ&list=FLdVx229QP9-bfsw6FhHxHHQ&index=12&feature=plpp_video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4x7W71_MQQ&list=FLdVx229QP9-bfsw6FhHxHHQ&index=12&feature=plpp_video)
That is part 1 of 4 or 5 videos.
Like others have said, it is very hard to explain how to do a flemish string, but fairly simple to actually do.
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I used this series of videos to learn to do a flemish twist string. I found them better than most other vids out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4x7W71_MQQ&list=FLdVx229QP9-bfsw6FhHxHHQ&index=12&feature=plpp_video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4x7W71_MQQ&list=FLdVx229QP9-bfsw6FhHxHHQ&index=12&feature=plpp_video)
That is part 1 of 4 or 5 videos.
Like others have said, it is very hard to explain how to do a flemish string, but fairly simple to actually do.
I thank you for that. It is becoming more clear to me.
I figure, i am going to have to experiment a good bit. It may take me longer than most since i am an idiot, but i suppose its only a matter of time before it clicks.
Thank you to those who have helped me
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I used this series of videos to learn to do a flemish twist string. I found them better than most other vids out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4x7W71_MQQ&list=FLdVx229QP9-bfsw6FhHxHHQ&index=12&feature=plpp_video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4x7W71_MQQ&list=FLdVx229QP9-bfsw6FhHxHHQ&index=12&feature=plpp_video)
That is part 1 of 4 or 5 videos.
Like others have said, it is very hard to explain how to do a flemish string, but fairly simple to actually do.
I agree with Slackbunny,i learned from the same video,easy to follow.
/Mikael
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I would suggest that you get some artificial sinew and practice the process making some short (1' - 2') cordage. Do this until you get comfortable then switch to a bow string with whatever you are going to use. That way you will be happier with your first string. After that, it becomes second nature.
Good Luck
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I make flemish twist strings without using a jig.
I second that. I use kitchen chairs instead of a jig.
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A 14strand reverse twist(7 strand per bundle) of b57 cord is an adequate bowstring though, right? That is my first attempt.
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What poundage of bow?
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What poundage of bow?
Aiming for 40-45
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I have to admit I have not heard of 'b57'. ???
I use B50.
Using that, your thread count would be more than plenty for that poundage. You could even go lighter. IMO anyway.
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Here is one of the best manuals for making the flemish string I have ever seen: http://poorfolkbows.com/flemish1.htm
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Years ago I had to be shown how do the twist ("Come on baby! Let's do the twist!) Sorry. Anyway, a video would sure help. I only twist the loops. I don't twist the whole string. Jawge
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Here is one of the best manuals for making the flemish string I have ever seen: http://poorfolkbows.com/flemish1.htm
Ok i viewed this. And i'm thinking i like the idea of using a timber hitch because it is more adjustable and i may be able to use the string for more than one bow. So i just simply reverse twist one end, make the loop, then reverse twist the entire length, tie a knot on the end and that's it?
Also i read serving the string is to keep it from getting worn out, is this absolutely necessary? And also can i get away without using wax? Because i have none.
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And i'm thinking i like the idea of using a timber hitch because it is more adjustable and i may be able to use the string for more than one bow.
Strings are not expensive. Make a string for a bow and leave it on the bow. The nock point is going to be different on a different bow.
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I can make a serviceable string using dacron or linen in 5 minutes
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Also i read serving the string is to keep it from getting worn out, is this absolutely necessary? And also can i get away without using wax? Because i have none.
Both the serving and the wax have multipurposes,the wax makes the string much easier to twist,lubricates it for longer life and to some extent weatherproofs it.
Its wery cheap and you dont want to be without it.
The serving is for protection and by chosing the dimension you get a good fit for your nocks.without wax and serving you will have to make new strings all the time.
The extra money spent on a spool of serving and some wax is actually a saving in the end.
/Mikael
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I have never reverse twisted a whole string from b50.
I only do the ends and a little extra then just twist the rest!
Maybe I am missing something good !( besides cramped fingers )
Guy
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Guy,
It is something to do while watching T.V. ;)
It does cramp the hands though.
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It seems like a lot of people o here reverse twist the entire string. There are three main reasons that I don't do this.
1. It takes a lot of time and adds no benefit.
2. It uses more b-50
3. A string that has been reverse twisted the entire length will stretch more than a string that has not been.
Just my two cents.
Jon
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I dont reverse twist the entire string because it makes for a rounder string.
I always make loops at both ends so i have to work a little to not get it twisted anyway,but i think its worth it.
And besides, i really like to fiddle with every aspect of archery ;D
/Mikael
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I have never reverse twisted a whole string from b50.
I only do the ends and a little extra then just twist the rest!
Maybe I am missing something good !( besides cramped fingers )
Guy
And the twist holds.....? Maybe i'm missing something.
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Dictionary
There is nothing to hold if you don't take the string clear off the bow!
Bevan R.
I used to do that but anymore I don't watch TV unless I am doing something mindless like eating popcorn !
I am not sure I can eat string and twist corn at the same time as watching TV,or was that twist TV ,and eat string while while watching corn ? overload ,overload, brain stop!!!!!! ;) ;D
Guy
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Guy,
I understand completely, I only use the screen for an occasional DVD now. 8)
And the twist holds.....? Maybe i'm missing something.
Yes. I make both ends twisted loops. Never have had a loop fail.
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Both ends are loops and the string is then twisted by twisting one of the loops.
ok.
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Both ends are loops and the string is then twisted by twisting one of the loops.
This is for a double loop string. That is what I make and use.
I have made single loop stings with the entire string reverse twisted. Then a bowline knot at the end.
I always serve my strings. It helps the nock fit as mentioned and helps protect the string.
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Wow this thread lasted much longer than i figured it would. You guys on primitivearcher really are great at helping new members. I guess thats what keeps traditional archery alive, people being welcome to answer questions and help idiots like me. I plan to first do the simple flemish loop and reverse twist the entire way with a bowline knot at one end, and next a double looped string. I expect a failure or two possibly but i'll get it eventually.
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Even if your only doing one loop there is still no need to reverse twist the whole thing.
Do your loop plus a little to hold it then go to the other other end and start in again a few inches ahead of where you are putting the bowyers knot . then reverse twist it to the end and finish it with an overhand knot at the end to hold it together!
Guy
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Wow this thread lasted much longer than i figured it would.
As JW would say... "They are just stringing you along" >:D
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Even if your only doing one loop there is still no need to reverse twist the whole thing.
Do your loop plus a little to hold it then go to the other other end and start in again a few inches ahead of where you are putting the bowyers knot . then reverse twist it to the end and finish it with an overhand knot at the end to hold it together!
Guy
So reverse twist the loop, then go to the other end and reverse twist from the bowyers knot and about 5 more inches or so? And then twist the entire string? I'm still not understanding how the string wouldn't unravel by itself.
Note* i don't mean any offense to these stupid questions i keep asking that pretty much rephrase what you say, its just that it takes my slow brain a little while to wrap around this new information.
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I think the easiest way to describe it is if you take a look at the video Slackbunny posted.
First make the loop at one end and follow the instructions untill he folds the string back to make the other,instead of folding it you just keep reversetwisting it to the end.
And if you only loop it at one end you only have to untangle the threads as you wont be inducing any twist with another loop.
/Mikael
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Dictionary, dont put your self down, you not an idiot for not knowing how to do something, no-body knows untill they take the trouble to learn things, whiich takes time......if someone showed you 'face to face' you would have got it straight off....its one of those things that takes many words to explain but only a few mins directly being shown.....goodluck with all your bow making endeavours...
Dave
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What dragonman just said is verry true and the same as I tryed to say on an earlier page!
So don't ever worry about asking questions ! As they say the only dumb question is the one you don't ask!!
In this case I say just go do it, then let us know what happened !
Part of learning is doing !
Reverse twist enough for your loop make the loop reverse twist past where the ends run out and a couple of inches more , straighten out your strings then go to other end and reverse twist a long enough area to more than take care of where your going to tie it , put a knot at the end to hold it from untwisting,put your loop on the bow nock and twist the string the same way as the reverse twist till you get enough twist to have every thing wrapped but not kinked ,then let your string slid down the bow a few inches so you can tie your knot and then brace your bow to see where you are on brace height ,make adjustments by either retying the knot or putting in more or less twists ! the end