Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: NOMADIC PIRATE on July 06, 2007, 08:54:30 pm
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...Well I'm just about ready to make my first sinew backed bow,...but i can't make up my mind between 2 ::) ::), they are both gone tru floor tillering.
both are great peaces of wood
one is going to be 58-59"ntn, the other 63-64" ntn
thanks
here's the longer one
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/bows034.jpg)
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(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/bows035.jpg)
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Here's the shorty
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/bows036.jpg)
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(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/bows037.jpg)
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(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/bows038.jpg)
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I don't know but I think the longone there is one lim flexing and the other deflexing ????????
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No Robin, .....set back handle, than little deflexed sections, than from half limbs slight natural recurve, that I will increase a bit and match just before applying sinew, if I'll decide on this bow ;D
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l like both staves Manny. Guess I would go with shorter one just ta have less mass on outer limbs, plus I like 58" bows. When ya make yer decision are ya gonna use TB3 or hide glue?......bob
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TB III Bob, I hunt in the rain a lot in winter
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I do too but I use hide glue. " One mans junk is another man's treasure, eh?" ;D......bob
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I would do the shorty also. Don't forget, Titebond III is only water resistant. ;) Justin
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LOL BOB
...Yeah I'm leaning towards the 58"er, ..the only thing is that I've never being to succefull with short bows ::) and that makes me gravitate towards the longer bows
water resistant plus skins plus a good finish ;D ;D ;D, ...just don't feel like messing with hide glue :)
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Manny, I've only done a few sinewed bows and 2 of them are 60", which worked out well for me. I believe sinew is better suited for shorter bows with 63"-64" being on the long side. I think I'd go with the 58" and add the sinew only to the working part of the limb and leave the tips bare wood(under the finish). I usually leave the tips bare on sinew bows to protect the sinew from the string and vice versa. I then wrap where the sinew ends.
That shorty is stunning with that dark streak in it and the long tapered outline.
My next sinew bow is gonna be a 50" ERC bendy handle bow with sapwood and heartwood. Pat
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That's a good idea Pat ;) ...yeah that little bow is gonna come out real cool ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Manny, next you need to try a Hupa designed bow at 36" long and pulling in the 50# range. Should make the perfect bow for hunting in that dense jungle brush ya got over there.
David T.
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I would use the longer one and cut 2" from each end
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If you are only going to use TB to glue the sinew and leave the bow long there really isn't much point to using sinew. You might as well use rawhide. That's more or less what sinew mixed with TB ends up as.
Even if you don't care for true short bows, at least shorten to the point where you are using materials to their full advantage and apply them in a way that plays to their strengths.
A happy medium would be 56-58 inches with knox or hide glue holding the sinew on and drawing the bow to the point where the sinew is working rather than providing insurance. You can waterproof it somehow, even if it means a modern finish.
Pat
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So using TB III for sinewing doesn't make the sinew work like sinew ??
You are saying that if I reflex the bow and recurve the tips I will get the same set as if I'd left the bow unbacked of sinew ??
D TILLER,, I think 58" is the shortest I'll ever go not very keen on short bows, and didn't find any advantages in the jungle, only shooting ability disadvantages ;)
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From my experience, which isn't that much, I would not use TB. I used it once on a sinewed bow and didn't get the results I wanted.It did not pull any reflex and felt real mushy when drawn and trust me It was plenty cured, a pretty crappy performer. If you are worried about moisture my suggestion would be to lay down 3 courses with Knox or hide glue, then when fully cured size the back with a thin coat of tb3 or if using a skin of some sort use tb3, but keep it thin or It may actually lock in moisture instead of keeping it out. What kind of finish are you going to use, Parrifin? I would Imagine that It would work pretty well on sinew since It keeps the moisture out of your selfbows in your humid climate. Good luck with whatever you do. Just my 2 cents.
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How about the TB liquid hide glue ?...I was planning to finish this one with spar urathane
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Apparently Liquid hide glue works OK if it is a fresh batch(hard to tell) and dried well and then sealed. Using regular TB will just make your sinew inert rather than retaining elastic properties. It would be like installing shocks and encasing them in concrete.
Pat
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Liquid hide glue is basically the same as hot hide glue. They add a salt solution to it to decrease the melting point. This makes it stay liquid and slightly weaker than the regular stuff. Justin
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O.K., Knox/hide glues are what I'm leaning towards,.....for now ;D
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I'm trying an experiment right now with TB II and sinew. I'm of the opinion that the problem is that TBII does not penitrate the sinew well and let it relax. What I'm doing is pre-wetting the sinew in water untill it relaxes then wringing out the sinew and then dipping it in TBII before aplying it to the bow. I also wrapped the bow in siranwrap to slow down the drying and give the glue a chance to dry at the same speed as the glue. I will keep you posted on what happens!
David Tiller
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Interesting, I'm definatly curious to know what you think
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Change of direction ;D, just got some words of a bowyer that uses TB III for sinewing his bows and gets excellent results,.....guess I'm back leaning into the TB III option ;D
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Regardless of what some people might say you won't get the same results with TB3 as you would with hide glue but it will work ok as long as you introduce some reflex before you apply the sinew. Even though the sinew is encased with TB3 it will still be affected by moisture and consequently lose cast. You will basically get the same moisture proofing with hide glue if you use a good finish and maintain it, the key word here is "good" finish.
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With Marc on this....bob
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I'm with Bob and Marc on this one. I have been doing a lot of reading about animal glues, and here is my thinking. Because hide glue gels before it dries, if forms one continuous layer with the sinew. As tight bond dries, it will honeycomb, leaving tiny pockets of air in the glue. When the hide glue is put under stress it will stretch because it is one continuous piece with sinew reinforcing. The TB will be hundreds of individual pieces of sinew kind of linked with glue. The other benefit of hide glue is that it glues when it gels. This means you don't need to hold it in place as long as synthetics. Because it is gelled, not dry, the last piece will stick with the same strength as the first. You could wait until the TB is tacky, but that means partially dry, and the next piece will not stick to it with the same strength. When an additional layer of sinew is added, the hide glue actually reconstitutes, and the new sinew becomes part of the original layer, not a new layer. Do not use the liquid hide glue. It gives away one of the great benefits of hide glue of gluing when it gels. I thought it might help make the decision easier, or harder, but more informed. Justin
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Hmmm, leaning towards hide/knox .....again ;D ;D
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manny i added some ground up brick to my hide glue as a color base. that bow lost very little cast when the humidity picked up. later on i sort of purposely broke the bow and tried to soak the glue to possibly save the sinew. that stuff wouldnt let go for nothing. dont know why but adding the clay from the brick made it stronger and much more resistent to moisture. peace
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Manny, Ive tried both. The knox works better than the titebond......but the titebond will work if you reflex the bow a lot prior to sinewing.
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Manny, next you need to try a Hupa designed bow at 36" long and pulling in the 50# range. Should make the perfect bow for hunting in that dense jungle brush ya got over there.
David T.
David I was wonderin'. You ever hunt in dense jungle brush ?......bob
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Ryan, I was planning to reflex/recurve 2 1/12- 3 " if using TB III, what do you think ?
Jamie, good idea I will ad some red lava clay if I go the Knox/hide glue way,..thanks ;D
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If it were me I'd reflex it more than that if your going to use titebond glue. That would be good for knox. I'd go like 6" with tite bond. 8) ;D of coarse that does make them a bit of pain to tiller :P
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wow that much, how much set you expect to get with TB/Sinew, and how much with animal/sinew ??
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You will lose at least half with tite bond. You may actualy gain reflex with the knox.
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Manny: I had been going thru the same glue debate that you are experiencing right now.
I went with hide glue for two reasons:
1. chemistry- after doing some sinew patch/wraps on some limbs I can see that the hide glue/sinew combination becomes a single entity. The mixture of sinew and hide glue will shrink as a single unit. It is strong as h*#*!
TBIII and sinew just can't do that. The TB is just doing a good job of sticking the sinew to the bow.
2. reading Jay Massey. If that guy could hunt Alaska with a sinew backed bow (hide glue) then there is no reason for me not to use it. Put on a good finish (I like your spar urethane idea) and go with it.
I'd vote for the short bow to get the most benefit from the sinew.
The way you spit bows out I wouldn't worry about it. You could sinew/hide glue a couple and sinew/TB a few more all by the first of August! ;D
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Alright, alright,....I'm probably than going with knox gelatine (no hide glue in hawaii ;D) mixed with grinded lava soil.
....but I better not get those edges to lift !!!! ;) ;) ;)
advice needed,...how much reflex should I get it to before sinewing ???
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if it were me I would still go 2 1/2-3" ;D
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Wow Ryan, I'd like to have a finished bow with no more than 1" of reflex, should I still start with that much reflex ??
Went to the store to get Knox tonite,..but I just couldn't buy food to glue a bow, it just felt wrong ;D ;D ;D
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My mom always told me that some foods would stick to your ribs. I always thought it meant you wont get hungry as fast. Now I find out it really does stick to you. Manny, I think you will be happy with the decision to make your own from pig hide and sinew. Justin