Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on June 19, 2007, 12:22:39 pm
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I have a friend who has been wanting me to build him an english longbow, he wanted it fairly long about 72" and light draw weight of 40#. I had been wracking my brain what wood to use on this as the standard bow woods are all a bit heavy for that length and just come out too narrow and squirely, outer limbs want to bend sideways. I decided to try a maple back on a piece of poplar I had. 1 1/8 wide 72" long. Turned out to be a great combination, I decided to build it at 45# at 28". At 28" the bow showed only about 1/4" set which quickly dissappeared when unbraced and was shooting very fast. I was going to put a little movement in the handle area which was still a bit stiff to get the other 5# off but decided first I would give the bow a try at 30" and 50#. Looked like the bow had some good potencial for flight shooting. The mass weight of the bow at this point was 14 1/2 oz, this suggested that I had allready reached my limits with a bendy handle but against my better judgement I went for the 30" draw and picked up two nasty chrysals on each limb. I like the design well enough that I will repeat it as it would have worked great with a slight flex in the handle. I will try to post some pics when my girlfriend gets up. Steve
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Bad luck ,but sounds like you learned something,I guess that's what it is all about. :)Love to see
the pictures.
Pappy
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Interesting that you are finding a use for poplar which most consider as non bow wood.
Would love to see some pics.
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Dana, I have made tons of bows from poplar, it wont give you much warning before it chrysals. Sometimes you just have to believe your experience and not push it. Here are a couple of pics, it has taken hinges and chyrsals in both bending areas, before the overdraw it was an exceptional shooter, you can see the stiff handle area, right outside that area is where it starts to hinge and chrsal for about 8" on each limb. I will repeat this same design but use a cherry board instaed which is similar weight to heavy poplar. I will also get it bending closer to the handle just a touch. I build a lot of bows and figure I will start posting the ones that dont work out so well maybe someone will get a lesson from it besides me LOL. Steve
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Steve when you say poplar do you mean balsalm poplar, or some type of aspen? Around here everyone calls em popple regardless of what it is.
What about a poplar as a stave make it longer and wider should work especially for a light poundage bow ie kids bow?
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Dana, I have made polar bows as high as 75#, about 2 1/2 wide pyramid design, you need dense poplar to do this as some is so light it just wont work. I don't recomend poplar as a bow wood but I can see how in certain applications as in light bows especially it might be useful. Most poplar bows are more of a novelty than anything else.
I am going to cut 1/4" off the belly of this one and glue on a maple strip and retiller just to see what happens, I think it will save it. Steve
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Nice looking bow badger. Only comment I could make is that it looks a bit stiff in the outer limbs. You may be able to get a few more fps. getting them to bend a bit more.
David T
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Dana, the bow took some hinges when it chyrsaled this is the after photo, the tiller changed pretty drasticaly. I do agree that longer bows need the outside bending a bit more. Steve
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Dana, a lot of the "poplar" lumber in the trade is tuliptree or tulip poplar, Liriodendron tulipifera, which is actually in the magnolia family. Around here it's just called "poplar", or yellow poplar, because of the yellowish heartwood.
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Hey, Steve
Nice looking bow... I've not tried poplar myself. I have made several ELBs using hickory backed Ipe. 72'', 1" wide narrowing to 1/2" tips, bendy handle type profile. Set under 50# is usually negligible.
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Steve,
Your tiller looks OK... you might want to get the tips coming around more. You're bending a lot right out of the fades. If you want a bendy handle ELB, get it to bend in a completely circular arc. A big C, right through the handle.
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Steve,
Can you get your hands on some eastern red cedar? You can make a light longbow wide enough and thick enough to be stable. it is thick enough that it makes tillering easier. I back it with hickory about 1/16 thick or a few 1/1000" more. Sweet bows! Use all heart wood, and a nice white hickory back. They are B E A utiful! ;)
Dan
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ab, read the above posts, Ther bow has allready failed in that photo, I was just showing why it failed, I kept the handle stiff intentionaly trying to push it a bit. Maybe I shouldnt post the failed experiemnts anymore LOL. Lots of times I like to post stuff that doesnt work out and then talk about why it didn't work. If all the posts aren't read it just looks like a badly tillered bow being posted. This bow was actually a very fast very good shooter until pushed past its limits where it chrysaled and hinged the limbs. If I were to have gotten the center wood working more it might not have been quite as fast but it wouldnt have chysaled either. or I could have made it a tad wider and just got it working a little closer to the handle, it basically missed its target draw length by 2". So any number of small changes could have corrected that. Steve
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Nice looking bow badger. Only comment I could make is that it looks a bit stiff in the outer limbs. You may be able to get a few more fps. getting them to bend a bit more.
David T
David, Did you read it before you posted. He told you there were frets and hinges in the inside limbs? That is why the outside is bending less.
Steve, Please continue to post the ones that don't work out. I think they serve two major purposes.
1 They teach. Like you said, not only you can learn from them.
2 It eliminates the misconception that new guys get that they are the only ones that have problems. Sometimes the best bowyers have bows that don't work out. Justin
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Chill Justin! ;D
Looking at the failure can tell you why it failed. In this case it could be attributed to the tiller. A bit more bending in the outer limbs would relieve the stresses on the inner limbs. ELB's that bend throughout their length in Compass rose safly store energy with this narrow width to depth dimension by bending in a full arc where a stiff handle would not at longer draw lengths of 30 or more inches. I ran into the same problems with some of the composite experiments I ran myself. I think the stiff handle section is great for draw lengths up to 28" in Victorian style ELB but when you get to longer draw lengths of 30 or more inches the best bet is a Warbow design in compass rose fashion to keep it from failing.
David T.
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Thanks for reading the post!! I actually have a specific goal in mind for my 50# elbs, I want to try and beat the 50# broadhead record for simple composite bows with an elb instead of a flatbow. I need to be able to shoot a 500 grain arrow at or very near 180 fps to do this. This particualr bow was very close to that before it chrysaled. About the best I can get from a full arc of the circle tiller is around 168 fps. The outer limb could have bent just a tad more and the inner limb just a tad more and I would have been home free. Most anytime I am trying to max a bow out I allready know the chances of failure are very high. I build almost a bow a day most of the time and about 3/4 of them are right on the edge, when I feel I have settled into something I think is good then I will take my time on one having a pretty good idea where the limits are and what to expect from it in the way of warning signs etc. For me thats where the fun is. I am also always fishing for new recruits to flight shooting, the sport seems to be fading away gradually. A lot of the guys who have been dedicated to it for years are getting older and will soon be retiring, plenty of room for a new generation to come in and set some new records. One of the few sports where you adversary will tell you all his secrets. I think most of us just want to see how far an arrow can actually go regardless of who gets it there. I know when I see some of the elbs that Mark St Louis has been building lately I feel a lot of pride just beeing in the same group, kind of like being on the same team in a way. great sport for some of us odd balls!!! Steve
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WoW !!! Not "The Dan Perry"...huh??? :o I've been reading and using your Perry Reflex for years ... MANY THANKS !!!
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Thanks GPW.
To be honest, Steve here is much more impressive than I. Pay attention to what he shows you. It is Great info.
Dan
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Hi Steve, I tried a similar bow recently using a thin bamboo backing. It was real quick for a dozen shots before it chrysalled . I'll try again if I find some poplar which feels like it could handle the compression. The mass is so low, the bow can't help but be fast if it stays together. Trade-offs ;)
Rich-
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Very nice Steve. I gather this was Yellow Poplar? You say ELB. Was it also D section?
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Good craftsmanship, but in a sense wasted effort. I think that poplar will never do in long term. It only depends how long it takes till it actually chrysals or give up completelly. (And its never too long)
There is certain type of bend which bellongs to target english bows, even lightweight ones and I dont think it is possible to make it in poplar.
Did you, Steve considered some different lightweight low hysteresis wood. Like black cherry with maple backing? I think that for weight sub 40# it will be excellent combination....
Jaro
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Jaro, for light weight longbows will probably use maple backed cherry in the future, have in the past and it works pretty well. That poplar has fantastic speed until it chrysals. Steve
Dan Perry, is far too mdest!!
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This is probably due to low hysteresis and I think its the reason why it makes so good distance shaft - better than ash anyway. At least until shot at hard target.
Jaro
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Steve, I'd like to see you make a one hit wonder bow from Port Orford Cedar or Sitka Spruce. That would be interesting.
Pat
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Pat, I had a piece of sitka spruce i was eyeballing this morning for a 35# elb. Thining maybe a thin maple or elm back. let you know how it works.
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Steve, Looking forward to it. Actually it should be done now ;)
Pat
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Tiller looks darn good, Badger. As you know I love that design. Looks like you added a bit of reflex to the tips which has been picked up above. As for the chrysalling, that's the way it goes. Getting poplar to 30 inches is a pretty good accomplishment. As for flight shooting, if I could find a field around here in S NH that doesn't have a house on it now I'd be a joyful participant. Welcome back, Dan. Jawge
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We've made a bunch of lighter weight,50lbs,ELB's from hickory backed Red cedar.."Perry Reflex" sometimes up to 4"...all had great cast... the trick of not getting fretting, is to use a thinner backing..the thicker less stretch backings just put too much compression on the belly, even the flatter bellies... we made some light elb's with 1/4" hickory backing on Purpleheart .. dumb dumb ... all fretted badly ..if you think your backing is too thin for safety , we just glue a layer of polyesther camo net on that ... easier to get than that snake ... :o deer don't know the difference...hahahahaha
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I would LOVE to go to a flight shoot if it weren't in the middle of Elk, Deer, and Bear season. If that ever changes--I'm there.
J. D. Duff
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J.D. I have heard a lot of guys say the same thing, we should start our own flight shooting association with classes more tailored toward what we do in primitive. Also have more flight shoots available to guys who can't travel 3,000 miles. Steve
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Hey Folks,
Not every shoot has to be a national championship! 2 Archers in a field with a $35 dollar 100 yard fiberglass tape is a flight shoot.
Go have fun.
Thanks Jawg. So many of you have been serving the sport here for so long. We are lucky to have you.
Dan
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Gearhart, Oregon--let's do it.
J. D. Duff
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Still nothing like a good tall longbow for accuracy .... target shooters here ... we hang nocks up at 15 yards and shoot at them ...ping pong balls were too big .... ;D