Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: hillbilly61 on June 26, 2011, 08:21:19 pm
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I thought I had listened to everything that I could hear about flipping tips. I steam bent a piece of white oak and it worked good.
I thought Osage was supposed to be dry heat. Soooo I got the heat gun out and heated the area (about 3" each side) I got to the going that it started drooping. I went ahead and eased it down. It cracked from one side to the other :( Sooooo I cut 4" of each end and wa-la another shortbow. I'll post pics of all that in another post latter.
What did I do wrong? Use the wrong heat? Overheat?
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I've had that happen Mark. Now I leave the tips thicker, and actually chase a ring on the belly. It has helped me doing it that way, and then thin the tips after bending.
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hillbilly, that's how I made my 56" Osage with recurved tips O:)
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Well. I 've ended up with a 46" T2T 39# @ 26" I would like to put a little reflex bend in the tips. I know it will shorten the draw length but that's ok.
This is the first time I've chased a ring. What would it do if I sinewed the back That would be a first also.
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dunno, haven't sinewed...yet. Soon though... >:D
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I've wrecked more perfectly good bows trying to flip the tips with dry heat than I care to admit. Steam is the way to go for severe bends like that. The shame of it is I knew better almost every time, but didn't want to wait a couple of weeks for the wood to dry out from steaming. I pulled it off just enough times that I thought luck might be on my side to use dry heat. Just dumb. :-[ I think I've finally broken myself of that practice, but it's taken a long time... ;D
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from what I have heard dry heat is no good on sharp bends. I steam my tips for 2 hours before bending them and while I am bending them I use the heat gun to keep them hot and take my time usually try to take about 10 minutes for each recurve but I have only done 2 now with osage and they both came out perfectly. I have heard though that if the wood is still some what green or is green you can use dry heat with no problems.
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I've only used dry heat on osage and have never had a problem. I also leave the tips at least a growth ring too thick, sometimes 2. Only heat the belly and sides, never the back. I have popped a slivver on the belly doing the bend, but with the extra thickness I could sand it out. I did build a half-round caul and the last one I did was easier with that. I put a thin piece of steel on the belly where I bent it for the clamps to bear and didn't have any trouble.
George
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I'm know expert on flipping and such but I was under the impression that you use steam for green, steam or dry heat for seasoned wood, Bub
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I do about like George, and sometimes pop up a splinter but never broke and Osage flipping the tips.
I have broke several Hickory using dry heat. :)
Ppapy
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Those splinters pop up because your trying to make too sharp of a been.
HILLBILLY
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HILLBILLY the only thing I can thing of is your stave (bow) was'nt all the way seasoned and it had a little moister. Maybe to high a heat aplyed to fast. Seasoned wood dry heat, unseasoned steam type of wood dos'nt matter.
ALSO let the weight of the bow do the beening as you heat it don't do the beening yourself. This way you don't over heat it. Make a caul where the tip down and the bows up on a 45 % angle. This way the weight of the bow will do the beening around the caul as you heat it.
I know alot of people use heat but I never heat moveing parts of the limb. I no longer flip tips but I will been the handle to bring the tips in line if I have to.
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So using dry heat on Green wood is not good? Ed Scott suggest to do it that way. To me it is no different than steaming it considering that you are heating up moisture that will start steaming if you get it hot enough. and I have tried dry heat on seasoned wood and it ended in disaster but I only tried it once so I dont have much experience to go one here but i have tried steaming seasoned wood and it has worked both times. Also in the bowyers bible they say to steam or boil the wood for atleast one hour for sharp bends. Do I have all this wrong? If I do let me know because I dont want to risk wasting any wood as it is hard to come by. thanks
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Did you put enough oil or crisco on the bow first? I use crisco and heat it slowly. If I'm doing a severe bend I do it over time. Letting it cool down, rehydrate and then bend it some more.
It sounds like to me you overcooked it.
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I'll second George on the metal band clamped to the belly when you bend it. If you go inch-by-inch and heat it really deep into the core of the stave, it should work better for you. Just as you watch for violated growth rings on the backs of your bows, watch out for them when you're flipping tips.
John
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I tried dry heat on an 8 or 9 year old HHB stave. Didn't work. Cracked right across the belly.
I tried steam on a 6 month old hickory and it worked. I used the metal band on the belly and only had a few small splinters raise on each bend. I had left them extra thick for just that reason. A few seconds on the belt sander and they were gone.
I think from now on, I will use steam for all of my tip flippin'
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a band on the belly is almost a must, I've used a heatgun and boiled...prefer boiled.
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crooketarrow... Can you pm me a pic or post it on here wht the caul looks like?
mullet...I didn't use any oil or crisco :-\ I thought about it but got in a hurry ::)
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I like to use steam early on but i work most of my staves semi-green. I often tiller out a portion of the reflex so i re-set it with dry heat when the bow is ready and near fully dry, both in a rough caul.
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Mark, I was thinking of you yesterday as I was heat treating and flipping the tips on an Elm bow I've been working on. So here is photo of what's going on.
I treat the surface to be heated with Crisco, or Olive Oil. (Mark St Louis has a thread in the read only section that is helpful.)
I don't use a metal band but I do use a thin wedges of Ash. This is the second heating, and doesn't follow a single growth ring on the belly. On the first heating the area to be bent is thicker and follows a single growth ring. Since I started doing them this way there has been no more splintering. In this example the tips are only being flipped slightly, however using the described process has worked on severe bends as well.
How is the recovery going? Not much going on here as my wife just came home from the hospital after a weeks stay, and is quietly resting in bed this weekend.
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Thanks Dave that helps a lot.I'm going to go out and make a few now. The knee is doing good. I see thr Dr. Wed. and go from there. Praying for your wife. How's that grandson? Look forward to shooting with y'all again soon.
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Glad to hear the recovery is going well. Our Grandson is doing well, the little joker shot up to six foot one. Still skinny as a rail though. Sent you an e-Mail Mark, with some illustrations and photos.
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Thanks Dave. 6'1"? Thats unreal. I don't have to worry about this one. It blew up. :'( I'm going to post some pictures tomorrow and see if anyone can tell me why. I think the handle I added had too steep of a fade. :(
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Yeah every time he stands up, it seems he has gone up another shoe size, and we simply cannot keep enough groceries around to keep him fed when he visits.
This is what the bow looks like off of that form in the photo Mark. Of course I had to make minor adjustments to the tiller, and added some Osage overlays. I like simple sticks, and don't generally mess with overlays, however with my crooked eye, I managed to mess up the nocks, thus requiring some sort of remedy.
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When you're tempering the wood, heat alone is fine. However, when trying to manipulate the shape, you NEED to use something like oil as you heat the wood to keep it from drying and failing when bent. I prefer olive oil. The oil also helps the heat penetrate further and holds it in longer. Also, keep the gun moving, round ALL edges (so they don't burn), make sure your caul is narrower than the bow so it doesn't trap heat under the back, and use a backing strip. Hope that helps. :)
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I have found that sometimes with a particulary stubborn piece of osage the weight of the bow alone is not enough to make it bend. I use a 12" cresent wrench with a couple of 1 1/2" nuts tied to it for weight. I have had the belly side split open on a growth ring. I leave my tips 5/8" thick and the same wide. I also always round the corners a little on the belly side. I use olive oil and a heat gun for all bending. Don't forget to use oil on the back also. I didn't on one osage staff and it developed lateral cracks. The stave had been seasoning for 2 years. You can drive moisture out as you heat and osage will develop cracks down the length of the back. When this happens get your superglue out and fill them. Enjoy all bow building activity even if it ends up in destruction. Some of the best lessons are learned from destructive processes. " Oh, sh****t, I am not going to do that again".
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MULLET has it right. DRY heat seasoned wood STEAM greem wood.
Wish I had all the bows destoryed by heating in my youth. Number of bows sence I quit useing heat on working parts of limbs. oooooo Everything you can do with heat you can do it when it's green. People just were'nt tault to do it this way or but the time into starting there bows this way. A FEW PROPLE WROTE BOOKS because thats the way they do it and all newer bowyer bowyers 80'S,90'S 2000'S were taught heats the only way.
I draw knife my staves down to just short of bow foum and unswitst if needed and had reflex bring tips into line all while green. Green wood bends easy. My bows are half done before It's seasoned to build a bow. I know only a couple bowyers that SEASONS STAVES this way that agrees. You'll build better more relieable bows this way.
If I had all the staves made into fire wood by people heating bows I could never build all the bows before I died if I built one a day and I lived to be 500 . Even exsperenced bowyers ruin bows no matter if they do everything right. Remember wood is wood. And no matter how many you heat your changeing wood cells and when you do this well WOOD is WOOD . You won't say it on here but just look at the bows you've destoryed. I READ IT ALL THE TIME.
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The proof is in the pudding. here are some picks just to show you non believers out there what steaming seasoned wood will do this is a recurve I have built recently using steam on 3 years seasoned wood. Steaming seasoned wood is the only way to go I have had 100 percent success so far I have recurved 4 bows now using steam and works like a charm every time just leave the limbs thick at chase a ring on the belly and steam then bend. Oh and as I am binding I use dry heat just enough to keep the wood hot but not reduce moisture from the steam you will be seeing the other bows soon on here as they get finished up. The first time I ever tried to recurve a cured stave I used dry heat and it was a disaster. the 4 times I used steam I only had 2 curves splinter on me and they did not even splenter deep enough to make it half way through the ring I chased and only took 4 or 5 swipes on the beltsander to remove the splinters. Just take your time steam them good for atleast an hour or more then take quite a bit of time bending them.
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You ever think steaming seasoned wood is why your getting splinters. Even though your fixing them. So far you've lot lucky and the splinters were not deep that you could use your BELTSANDER. When I used to flip tips I did dozzens of bows and never got a splinter. And I SURE NEVER USED A BELTSANDER. I'M SURE YOU USE A BANDSAW TO. Not very primitive AND CAN JUST SEE COUPLE INDAINS SETTING AROUND THE FIRE PASSING THE BELT SANDER AROUND. But then again I don't use flint scrapers.
Just kidding BOW NUT each his own. I was just taught not to use power tools. I was taught by my meteor that your heart and spirit will not flow into the wood like this and anything none easy is not appreciated.
Build bows the way you want, your bows look fine.
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You ever think steaming seasoned wood is why your getting splinters. Even though your fixing them. So far you've lot lucky and the splinters were not deep that you could use your BELTSANDER. When I used to flip tips I did dozzens of bows and never got a splinter. And I SURE NEVER USED A BELTSANDER. I'M SURE YOU USE A BANDSAW TO. Not very primitive AND CAN JUST SEE COUPLE INDAINS SETTING AROUND THE FIRE PASSING THE BELT SANDER AROUND. But then again I don't use flint scrapers.
Just kidding BOW NUT each his own. I was just taught not to use power tools. I was taught by my meteor that your heart and spirit will not flow into the wood like this and anything none easy is not appreciated.
Build bows the way you want, your bows look fine.
"Wish I had all the bows destoryed by heating in my youth. Number of bows sence I quit useing heat on working parts of limbs" I guess that was not you that said that then since you have never had one splenter? I have done 8 total curves and only had 2 minor splinteres that did not effect to the bow and I will use a belt sander when It comes to somthing like that. I use draw knife and scraper to work the stave but they dont work well on an area like that. And you might want to pick up a copy of vol. 1-4 of the bowyers bible and read what professions say about this. Im just saying. I will go by what I have been taught by professionals and what has proven 100 percent success for me. I guess that is why I am still bending them. I am new to self bows but I have build well over 100 boo and hickory laminated bows.
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I was given signed copys when they first came out, no I said I never got splinters from fliping tips with heat on seasoned wood. If you dso it's simply because you went to fast.
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You ever think steaming seasoned wood is why your getting splinters. Even though your fixing them. So far you've lot lucky and the splinters were not deep that you could use your BELTSANDER. When I used to flip tips I did dozzens of bows and never got a splinter. And I SURE NEVER USED A BELTSANDER. I'M SURE YOU USE A BANDSAW TO. Not very primitive AND CAN JUST SEE COUPLE INDAINS SETTING AROUND THE FIRE PASSING THE BELT SANDER AROUND. But then again I don't use flint scrapers.
Just kidding BOW NUT each his own. I was just taught not to use power tools. I was taught by my meteor that your heart and spirit will not flow into the wood like this and anything none easy is not appreciated.
Build bows the way you want, your bows look fine.
I don't use a belt sander but only because I don't want to.
I do use a band saw and once and a while guys say "did Indians have a band saw??"....and I always say, if they would have had one, they would have used it!!!! :D
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yea i hear ya its only human nature to use what makes it easier. that guy is full of it but I have been having fun with him getting him all worked up lol.
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Glad to see this is staying civil ,I had my doubts for a while :) :) :) Only one comment ,There is NEVER only one way or the ONLY way to do any of this stuff.
It may be the only way for you but not the only way. :)
Pappy
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yea sorry pappy, that guy has been making rude comments to almost everything I have posted. so I decided to mess with him and be a bit rude back. I guess there are always guys like that and should just not waist my time commenting back. Just was trying to prove that steaming wood works since so many have said it does not and woof I lit a flame under his butt or something. Any way I will ignore him next time.
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Ok Guys....time for a dumb question....
I can see using oil (olive or otherwise) on the limb when bending. But what does that do to the bow as far as later tillering and finishing? Seems like you'd have to give it an oil bath to have a descent finish later on.
Help me on this,
Thanks
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jpitts, not a dumb question at all. Between final tillering and sanding most of the residue from the oil or whatever is removed. When it comes time to apply finish some careful wiping with an acetone or alcohol soaked rag will remove those oils, dirt, and dust that could mar your finish.
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Thanks Lombard.
I just a few moments ago finally got a 56" osage bow to pulling 50# at 28" on a long string. Can I slightly flip the tips if the tips are fairly thin?
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Be careful J, as what you get on the long string and what you get when the bow is at low brace will be two different things. It has to do with the string angles and their effects as levers. It is a good practice to long string tiller to get the wood bending enough for low brace, and then slowly get the wood bending evenly to full brace. All the while never pulling beyond your intended draw weight.
This link will take you to a thread that has helpful information. Follow Badger's guidelines in this post, and you will discover one of the secrets of good tillering and bow design. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,17294.0.html
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Thanks Lombard.
I really appreciate the thread too. I remember reading it back then.
I normally use that method when tillering. I have gotten to the point where I'm at the weight I want at 28" using my longer string and was wondering if I needed to flip the tips before going to the regular string or wait till I'm closer to the end of tillering.
Never tried to flip tips before but like the profile of bows that have it.
Thanks,
Jimmy