Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: criveraville on June 16, 2011, 05:48:34 pm
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If this belongs in Around the Campfire please move, but I have a question about bows. There are many many references to bows in the bible, yet when I search for Israli/Hebrew/Jewish bows I can not seem to find any specific examples that are linked to the people of the Old Testament. Would they have been Eygptian, Mesapotanian or Parthian?
Thanks,
Cipriano
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My guess would be they were more symbolic than an actual tool and maybe they didnt even use or have any archery items. They just used archery terms to describe certain things or meanings.
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Hebrew bows would be the same type(s) used by powerful neighbors or oppressors. This would mean Eqyptian, Assyrian, Greek, and Roman designs, depending on the time period.
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Not sure if these help. I used the Google search of hebrew bows and arrows and also middle east bows and arrows. Most of the Egyptin bows were imported from the middle east
http://www.articlesbase.com/extreme-sports-articles/history-of-the-bow-and-arrow-403289.html#axzz1PTMT19hD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_archery
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I would think Egyptian or Assyrian. I don't think one could be used for symbolism if there wasn't one being used somewhere.
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Sorry Pearl, but if you remember, Jonathan gave David his bow when they became friends. Guess we're just continuing the tradition here ;)
He also used it to signal to David whether he needed to hot-tail it from Saul or not. As much as the Israelites borrowed from neighbors, there were pretty strong prohibitions against using weaponry of other nations, though that was mainly chariots and such war machines. That's an interesting thought though, got me wondrin . . .
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Or more likely the rest of us (the neighbors ) borrowed designs from them !!
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Thanks guys. I just thought that the Isralites would have developed their own style, type of archery equipment. Even when you borrow from neighbors and oppressors a unique style develops, but I havent found much info or literature on the subject matter other than being attributed to the neighboring people..
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Here is a link about Sibudu Cave in South Africa that puts archery use back to between 64,000 -70,000 years...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibudu_Cave
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If you're by chance looking for a for this type of bow, I believe Rudderbows has some...https://rudderbowsarchery.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=555&zenid=gjtud3prmosg2e1a8t8onjhgm0 (https://rudderbowsarchery.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=555&zenid=gjtud3prmosg2e1a8t8onjhgm0).
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thats what my bows with siyahs usually look like.
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Here is a link about Sibudu Cave in South Africa that puts archery use back to between 64,000 -70,000 years...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibudu_Cave
There is a lot of controversy about the archery claims, the bone point could be a dart or javalin point so nothing is conclusive or any different to the small stone points found throughout Europe that also cannot be conclusively claimed to prove anything either way.
Craig.
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Thanks guys. That chariot/horse bow looks neat.
Craig, thanks for the info. But regarding Sibudu cave artifacts I read that stone points had been found that had been basted to an arrow and had blood/bone material on them. Have you read that? I did not realize there was a controversy over the claims made at the cave site.
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Thanks guys. That chariot/horse bow looks neat.
Craig, thanks for the info. But regarding Sibudu cave artifacts I read that stone points had been found that had been basted to an arrow and had blood/bone material on them. Have you read that? I did not realize there was a controversy over the claims made at the cave site.
I have read various descriptions of the finds from one that claims they found a bone arrow shaft to others that describe it as a bone point. It is only 5cm (2inches) long and so what makes it an arrow I have no idea especially when photos show it to be a just a point. WRT the blood, read/look at this :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11086110
you will see that it was stone points on which they discovered blood. Now what makes those points definitely arrow points where similar points found in Europe are not, is beyond me. I would also suggest that the shape of the so called points is very similar to small scraper blades used throughout the world.
So as you can gather there is a considerable controversy as to the veracity of the claims.
Points alone or points on incomplete shafts, (which there is no evidence of in the Sibudu cave), would not prove the use of bows and arrows as the same point and shaft could be from throwing darts. It would be necessary to find them in conjunction with bows or identifiable bits of bows to make the assumption of the type of missile.
On your original question I have not read of the discovery of any bow that could be ascribed to the Hebrew Nation, and like others I would assume they used bows similar in design to others used in the Middle east contemporary to their migration. But that is only an assumption.
Craig.
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Strictly speculation on my part, but I would think that since the Hebrews grew from a family/tribal group to a nation in Egypt, it would be logical to assume that their bow designs would be based on the Egyptian styles.
After the Exodus and the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, they would have have time to perfect their own designs before moving in to the Promised Land. Likely they had some influence from surrounding peoples, but I would think that the primary design would be Egyptian.
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Pretty much what Craig said. Just because a stone point looks like an arrowhead does not make it an arrowhead. Atatl dart points look just like arrowheads. Thats not to say that archery could not have been around prior to the Stellmoor bow, there is just no conclusive evidence (at this time) to support "Pre-Stellmoor" archery. As far as Hebrew bows go most of the bows of the near east empires (Assyrians, Hittites, etc...) were compostie bows suitable for use while riding in a chariot. The Egyptians used self bows until the Hyksos invasion of 1720 BCE. so I would imagine that Hebrew bows would be some sort of composite bow as well.
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Strictly speculation on my part, but I would think that since the Hebrews grew from a family/tribal group to a nation in Egypt, it would be logical to assume that their bow designs would be based on the Egyptian styles.
After the Exodus and the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, they would have have time to perfect their own designs before moving in to the Promised Land. Likely they had some influence from surrounding peoples, but I would think that the primary design would be Egyptian.
I am inclined to agree with you however one must bear in mind the Nubians who served the Egyptians for an awfully long time, they apparently stuck to their simple, (deflexed), bow even though their Masters changed the design of the bows they used through various forms of sinew/horn/wood bows from the angular to shapes we are more familiar with. So it seems that peoples can stay with one design even though it appears to be technically inferior to others used by their neighbours.
Craig.
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Pretty much what Craig said. Just because a stone point looks like an arrowhead does not make it an arrowhead. Atatl dart points look just like arrowheads. Thats not to say that archery could not have been around prior to the Stellmoor bow, there is just no conclusive evidence (at this time) to support "Pre-Stellmoor" archery.
Fully agree with you, and I believe that archery must have bee around prior to the dates ascribed to the Stellmoor bow(s), have you read this:
http://paleosite.free.fr/news/arcpaleo1.pdf
It is a report on a find that predates Stellmoor and is claimed to be a bow, it certainly looks like it may have been one, as much as the Stellmoor fragments did if not more than they, unfortunately it is in French but the online translators seem to handle it well. The Stellmoor bow(s) (plural because I understand there were a number of fragments of tips found, edit ** looked at the photo again, it seems there ore two tips so could be one bow or two bows, would need to know if the two were in a single line and would then definitely be one bow so have now put brackets around the"s".) are claimed to be something like 10,000 years old, while these people claim their bow is 17, 500 years old. One must also remember that doubts were cast as to the veracity of the Stellmoor claims and as the fragments did not survive the second world war we will never know of the truth of the matter. (edit** having looked at the photo again, they do appear to be bow tips to my old eyes).
Craig.
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Thanks for the heads up on the french article, Craig. There was enough of english in the article, along with a good photo, to definitly get my attention. The english translated description (what their was) along with the photo definitly supports the theory that the "Mannheim bow" could be a true bow. It looks like a survival bow, or some of the bows I made in my youth. The wood used for both this and the Stellmoor bow (pine) would be common (if not dominant) during the latter period of the ice age. And as the ice retreated people followed the ice, taking their "proto bows" with them. Eventually, after many sucesses and failures, the "Stellmoor bow" could have come into being. I don't think that the Stellmoor bow was the first bow ever made by man. It appears, at least in the reproductions I've seen, too "finished" to be a "proto-bow". So, could the "Mannheim bow" be an example of one of the earliest bows? Maybe.
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Thanks for the heads up on the french article, Craig. There was enough of english in the article, along with a good photo, to definitly get my attention. The english translated description (what their was) along with the photo definitly supports the theory that the "Mannheim bow" could be a true bow. It looks like a survival bow, or some of the bows I made in my youth. The wood used for both this and the Stellmoor bow (pine) would be common (if not dominant) during the latter period of the ice age. And as the ice retreated people followed the ice, taking their "proto bows" with them. Eventually, after many sucesses and failures, the "Stellmoor bow" could have come into being. I don't think that the Stellmoor bow was the first bow ever made by man. It appears, at least in the reproductions I've seen, too "finished" to be a "proto-bow". So, could the "Mannheim bow" be an example of one of the earliest bows? Maybe.
Scowler, any reproductions you have seen are almost entirely flights of fancy, all that survived of the Stellmoor bow, until the RAF intervened, were the tips, as in the attached photo.
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What does RAF stand for?
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Ok.. I didnt have my history cap on.. As in the bombing of Hamburge.. The United States Army Airforce also contributed to significantly.
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Thanks for the photos. Hope that we did not get too off topic.
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Those were great photos. Nope.. No hall monitors here :D
It's just been bouncing around in my mind.. That the ancient Hebrew people that had very strict rules about almost everything in everyday life did not have their own very specific and unique bow truly Hebrew. That's what has had me asking the question.
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I dont remember where I heard it but I remember hearing bout a Hebrew Birch Bow. But I was thinking also they were nomads for forty year before reaching the Promise Land, so they might have just used whatever was available for survival bows. Joel
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Criterville,
Came across this when searching for something else.
http://farmsoldsite.farmsresearch.com/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=737, its an article entitled "Warfare in the book of Mormon, it has an interesting passage on "Hebrew" bows taken from the King James bible, see below:
To answer this question, one must examine the translations of the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) in which the phrase "steel bow" is used (2 Samuel 22:35; Psalm 18:34; Job 20:24). In each reference the phrase has been incorrectly translated and should really read "bronze" (Heb. nechushah) bow. From archaeological remains, it is clear that the Hebrew "bronze bow" was not made entirely of bronze but was a term that, as Roland de Vaux notes, "refers to the metal coverings of certain bows."15 Nephi's "steel bow" could thus likely be Joseph Smith's Jacobean English translation for an original Hebrew "bronze bow," referring to an ordinary wopden weapon decorated or reinforced in certain parts (usually the upper limb, nock, and grip) with bronze. This explanation is supported by the fact that Nephi's "steel" bow is said to have broken, a good indication that Nephi was not referring to a pure steel bow of the fourteenth-century-A.D. type, which would be essentially impossible to break by human muscle power alone.
I'm intrigued by the line "From archaeological remains, it is clear that the Hebrew "bronze bow" was not made entirely of bronze but was a term that, as Roland de Vaux notes, "refers to the metal coverings of certain bows."
Maybe someone knows what is being spoken of?
EDIT**
Ah it seems Roland de Vaux wrote 2 books on Ancient Israel, so maybe you could look up what he says and see if he mentions any more on bows.
Craig
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Did some searching and found a site out there selling bows claimed to be based on ancient Hebrew Chariot Bow.
Also ran across what is claimed to be one of Muhammad's bows on display in a museum in Constantinople.
Reflex/Deflex(?) all bamboo with a jeweled case...
-Gus
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II Samuell 2:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.
The Jewish peopl definately used the bow.