Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: toomanyknots on June 08, 2011, 07:44:10 pm
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(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/PICT0002002_0001.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/PICT0002001_0001.jpg)
I don't know how it's gonna turn out. Ive read good and bad things about sinew backing with titebond. I soaked the sinew first but rung it out as good as I could before soaking it in glue and applying. I hope it stays together. It's only one layer with just a little overlapping so I am wondering maybe if I might get some sinew coming loose? Man I hope not. How long should I wait before tillering it? Next day? (It'll be at least 2 days anyway cause I still gotta bind the ears and by the handle)
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Im absolutely no expert ,but TB3 is waterproof.
That makes me guess a pretty long drying time.
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Im absolutely no expert ,but TB3 is waterproof.
That makes me guess a pretty long drying time.
That seemed to be the concensus- definately as long if not longer than normal hide glue. Best of luck though! It should definately hold together, the question is will it help hold the bow's profile ???
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I figure, as it's been pretty hot these days, ill throw it il the van in the hot sun all day to help er dry out. I got a fan on it right now. I know I have glued wet linen to bows plenty of times and haven't had a problem. Anybody use titebond to glue sinew before? I've read about 10 old threads on here about this, and have read contradicting info...
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Thats going to be a wild profile
Can't wait to see what it looks like.
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Holy siyahs batman :o
Can't wait to see this ones outcome. What type of wood is the bow core and those long ears? It'll look and feel hard dry in a week and can be shot,but it takes longer than hide glue to fully cure. JMHO but I might throw another layer or two of sinew on that one(pending on what type of wood and whether its a solid ring underneath or a bias ring board). Its gonna take a lot of stress with that design.
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The whole bow ears included is red oak. The limbs are from a real dense piece. 2 1/2" wide to 1 1/4" or maybe 1" wide at tips where the ears start, a consistent limb thickness of 1/4", so the limbs are basically pyramid bow style. It's pretty short as well, but might have to be a short draw bow then. I would have pulled more reflex if I wasn't afraid of the handle coming unglued from the limbs.
"It'll look and feel hard dry in a week and can be shot,but it takes longer than hide glue to fully cure."
Hmm, thank you Blackhawk, did not know that. ;D I'm confused on how the hell I am going to tiller this out? Cause the ears don't touch the string in the design...
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i hope the redoak is up to the taking the compression on the belly! is that a v splice or a butt joint for the siyahs?
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Man that is a crazy lookin profile! Can't wait to see how this turns out!
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"i hope the redoak is up to the taking the compression on the belly! is that a v splice or a butt joint for the siyahs?"
Just a but joint. I just bind em on with titebond 3 soaked linen. I hope the red oak holds up too. It's real wide and thin limb and only one layer of sinew hopefully (I'm hoping) will keep stress down on the belly. But this is the first time for me trying this bow design/dimensions at all...
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you are a brave man :D I wouldnt get in too big of a hurry on adding more sinew, you need to let the first layer breathe out before adding another layer. I assume you coated the limbs with the glue before adding the sinew, this helps the binding. that is a wild design should be fast.
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oh, ok. did the sinew go up the siyah? or did you just put sinew to each side of it? if you put another layer of sinew on, wait at least a week or so to let it dry out. then after that, two weeks. course, if you live anywhere down south, your van idea will dry it quick. i know it gets hot enough in cars in the parking lot here to drive me out of them, should drive the moisture out too! lol
im very interested in how this turns out as well. i havent built a bow in months, i need to get back into it.
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I've used TB3 and am happy with the results. I applied no less than 3 layers and maybe a 4th a couple of times, all at once. I let it sit for a month before final tillering. Months later in dryer weather it tightened up even more with a much higher draw weight than when first tillered. The osage recurve has held up well but the white wood recurve's belly just couldn't take the compression and gave out the first day. That is a lot of work for the results in applying sinew. I'll stick with osage from now on.
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Ok, now I got something weird goin on. The limbs somehow, from the sinew drying, are concaving in on themselves with the back sticking up and sides curling in... ...it's kinda freakin me out, as the sinew is only like partly dry!?! ??? It's hard to explain and I haven't got a picture yet but to put it simply the limbs used to be flat on the belly and now they are concaved if ya get what I mean. Never had this happen before. Anybody else experience this? If it curls anymore I am afraid the handle or siyahs might pop off.
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Just a bit of brainstorming here,but if the glue and sinew is thinner at the edges on a very thin and broad limb i can imagine something like that happening as it will dry uneven.
perhaps covering it with some plasticwrap could slow it down and even things out??
I have never done anything like that,but i have had glued woood warp temporaily and then end up straight.
/Mikael
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Heat treating a limb can have the same effect Toomanyknots. For both procedures its a good idea to slightly convex the limbs to counter this effect. Sinew/glue shrinks in from the sides also, not just it's length. Just flatten your limbs back out and that'll take care of your problem. Good luck.......Art
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"Just a bit of brainstorming here,but if the glue and sinew is thinner at the edges on a very thin and broad limb i can imagine something like that happening as it will dry uneven."
"Sinew/glue shrinks in from the sides also, not just it's length."
I think you guys are right. Kinda weird. But it did/does dry from the sides to the middle...
"Just flatten your limbs back out and that'll take care of your problem."
You mean something like clamping it between two pieces of wood while it drys? Because I cannot removed wood to even it out, as it is way too caved in.
EDIT: I figure if I have to ill just tiller it with sandpaper (like I was going to do anyway), I was wonder if ill have any particular problems with concaved limbs. Logic would tell me that the edges would have more stress on them then the middle of the belly, so I should probably round them a good bit... ?
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toomanyknots, where did you get the layout/plans/build for this bow? It is an interesting undertaking and I'd love to see some more details on what the final outcome is intended to be...
Many thanks!
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"toomanyknots, where did you get the layout/plans/build for this bow?"
Well, I kinda copied the the design of this grozer horn bow, but made the limbs wider and thinner (and minus the horn belly):
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2pt5pxk.jpg)
I believe it's a hunnic style.
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Wow, that is a looker for sure! I just picked a "book" on Horn Bows but it is a bit of a heavy read and makes me want to continue with the selfbows until I get a few more under my belt. I would love to make something of that caliber someday. Looking forward to seeing your progress. Keep at it bud!
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Toomany,
That might be a case of the "poisen" effect. It was common in flat-wide and thin Chineese bows. Basically a thin/wide flat surface will "cup" the opposite way from the strain. So perhaps the drying sinew is allready applying enough pressure to cup your flat limbs.....the effect did not hurt the chineese bows that were so built.
I'm not sure I spelled it right but will check on that and correct so that ya can check into it.
rich
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Im not sure why you would put one layer of sinew on. To get any real benefit it will take a few more layers.
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i realy hope that works out for you,that is some extreme angle on the syahs. good luck with it.
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You really want to slow dry sinew at first to prevent rapid shrinking IMO. I've used wet towels on low humidity days to prevent the sinew/glue from dry out to fast, which will cause gaps between the bundles/strains.
Your sinewed back is going to add extra strain to the belly of your bow which I doubt red oak will take. To help with the cupping and added strain you could trap yours limbs really well. Hope that helps............Art
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So U like Magyar bows .. ;D
Just some of my tought on this project, don't take it as a criticism!
The horn bows are totally different than a wooden bow, sinew backed or not. They could take extreme bend because the sinew back and the horn belly working (the best natural materials for this) and the wooden part is in the neutral zone.
It looking a mission impossible for me. Just one way schould make it. Let the working limb longer and the siyah (we call it "szarv") shorter than now.
The sinew have to glue up toward the tips other wise the "szarv" will split of.
I would use hide or fish bladder glue next time ;) Two layers needs about 2-3 month of drying, 3 layers about 6 month but for the best result needs about 1 year. TB III needs the same, or more time as others have sad. I newer worked with TB glues.
Here is an old topic http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,16102.0.html
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"So U like Magyar bows .. Grin
Just some of my tought on this project, don't take it as a criticism!'
Lol, yes, they seem to have caught my fancy sometime ago, and all criticism is always welcome! Thanks for the link too, cool thread. :D This is the way I see it (which probably aint all that accurate, but here goes); I believe that this bow is pretty short, but other than that I can't see any reason rationally it would fail compression wise. The limbs are very wide and thin, as well as only "slightly" reflexed, which will all be tillered out no doubt. Even if made of a less quality wood I think it would work as there is only one layer of sinew and the limb is very wide and thin. Or at least intuition is telling me so. So I thought I'd try it. The longer siyahs or svarv's (did not know they were called that, ;D) also give more draw per less limb movement the longer they are, if I had to tweek it I could make the siyahs or svarvs even longer and get as long as draw as I want with almost no limb movement, but then, performace would be not so good unless for a pretty high draw weight.
"The sinew have to glue up toward the tips other wise the "szarv" will split of."
I totally know what you are talking about, figured that out the hard way, lol. I use a glue soaked linen wrap though now and go up the siyah an inch or so in place of the sinew. Plus I make the base of the siyah fat for a inch or so before making em deep anfd narrow. This has stopped them from breaking so far. I have had success on bows up to 65#s doing it this way. I only use wood where the rings are not stressed in a way to cause a split, like plain sawn wood.
"I would use hide or fish bladder glue next time"
I would of, I just didn't have any. This is an experiment anyway, so I figure when I work out the kinks (hopefully there are none,) ill go all out on the next couple. I am so suspicious anymore of company's selling hide glue and rabbit glue as well using bones and all kinds of stuff, I like to make my own glue it just didn't work last time with this sinew I had used,.. hopefully it was because I screwed the glue up and not because the sinew is garbage. The sinew itself actually seems perfectly fine to use as a backing. I would love to get me a good source of fish glue... If titebond 3 works though I might just use it again if I don't have anything else. No cracking/semi water proof aint that bad of a thing for a sinew backing...
"Your sinewed back is going to add extra strain to the belly of your bow which I doubt red oak will take. To help with the cupping and added strain you could trap yours limbs really well. Hope that helps............Art"
True. I have seen sinew chrysal red oak... I hadn't though about trapping at all, unfortunately the limbs are already 1/4" thick. Hopefully I have made the limbs thin enough to counteract the added compression stress... :-\
"Im not sure why you would put one layer of sinew on. To get any real benefit it will take a few more layers."
I'd have to disagree to an extent, I use one layer alot of the time on short bows I make. I definitely get the snappyness and a little reflex with one layer. And after having a linen backed bow brake I just won't use any backing that I am not 1000% sure is not going to brake. I like the look of it too! But yes I agree with you about more layers being better to make sinew do what it does, I just don't wanna crush my bows belly.
"That might be a case of the "poisen" effect. It was common in flat-wide and thin Chinese bows. Basically a thin/wide flat surface will "cup" the opposite way from the strain. So perhaps the drying sinew is allready applying enough pressure to cup your flat limbs.....the effect did not hurt the chineese bows that were so built.
I'm not sure I spelled it right but will check on that and correct so that ya can check into it."
That is crazy! I never heard of that till now. MAkes me kinda less worried now, hopefully it won't hurt my bow either... :)
Thanks for so much advice and input guys!
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I think the best wood for this is osage and some lighter but strong wood for szarv :) like elm or ash. Szarv means horn. The bow forms a big horn whan it unbraced :)
Good luck! Oh and buy Adam Karpowicz's book from hornbow makeing. It is a very usefull book, well worth the price it coast! ;)
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Using one layer of sinew and TB3 is about the same as applieing rawhide. All one layer will do is protect the back and TB3 will not shrink like Hide glue. I've glued multiple layers of sinew with TB3 and did not notice any performance increase like I did using hide glue. Just my opinion, but sinewing red oak is kinda waste of good sinew.
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Do a search for "poisson effect". Lots of info out there.
Eddie, don't expect the TB glue to do much reflexing for you. But you done found that out. You have to do the reflexing yourself before appling the sinew/TB glue. Other than that, I've haven't found that much difference between the different glues. Hide glue I would give an advantage to in warmer weather and the advantage to the TB glue in colder climates.
When you talk about the added performance you get from extra layers of sinew, I got to ask, for what day, at what temperature and at what humidity level. One layer for a backing is just fine in my book. Adds physical weight for stability to an already too light short bow. Less stress on weaker compression woods. Big confidence booster when shooting the bow, and that's very important for the type bows we build. The list goes on and on.
Well, at least for my perspective, I look at sinew as a great backing material. All the other benefits are just pluses.........Art
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Art;
I've only sinew backed Osage and Mulberry. One short, Plains style bow I backed with three layers of sinew with TB3. I could pull this 48" bow 28" but the cast was real poor. I really think that the sinew, with the stretchy TB3, kinda, overpowered the wood, and made it respond slower. This Little bow had no string follow after unstringing it. The bows I have sinew backed with hide glue have to be tillered periodictally and after sitting in the sun for awhile,(90 dgs, 65% hum.) just seen to zip an arrow quicker. It just seemed like the limbs recovered a lot faster.
I have to agree, I'd rather use sinew to back a bow than rawhide, or other material. I think with the right glue, one layer of sinew, you just get a little more added benefit.
I also know you have to induce the curves when using TB, but a sinewed backed bow with a natural glue will eventually pull itself inside out from shrinkage.
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The bows I have sinew backed with hide glue have to be tillered periodictally and after sitting in the sun for awhile,(90 dgs, 65% hum.) just seen to zip an arrow quicker.
I found the same thing to be true also Eddie. But a little more flexibility when it gets down to freezing during hunting season is nice ;D.
Think I'm going back to using the TB2 for sinewing instead of using the TB3 anymore. Had better results myself using the water resistant glue instead of the water proof glue. What's the old saying, you have to give up something to get something, well, I think that happened with this type of glue........Art
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"Think I'm going back to using the TB2 for sinewing instead of using the TB3 anymore. Had better results myself using the water resistant glue instead of the water proof glue."
Supposedly thats what ed scott uses.
"I've only sinew backed Osage and Mulberry. One short, Plains style bow I backed with three layers of sinew with TB3. I could pull this 48" bow 28" but the cast was real poor. I really think that the sinew, with the stretchy TB3, kinda, overpowered the wood, and made it respond slower. "
I kinda know whatcha mean. Titebond seems to be stretchy but not elastic, like you can stretch it but it won't stretch back, or seems this way to me from workin with it...
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Art, I think you are right about the TB2 and 3. I like using TB3 when applying sinew wraps on arrows because of the waterproof qualities, but I liked the results from using TB2 working with bows better. It's almost like a sealer with TB2 and sealing a bow with a Garden hose with TB3. It also dries quicker when applying sinew.
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So titebond 2 drys quicker than titebond 3? Cause this sinew is drying wayyy slower than when using normal hide (sinew) glue. I got one spot that just won't stop being squishy and soft, been like 4 or 5 days now sitting in the van in the hot sun. And at night or anytime it's not in the hot sun, in a room with constant fans on it. If I treated one layer of sinew that I glued down with hide glue like this it would of been rock hard see though and tillerable in two days. It does seem like the glue is keeping the sinew under it from drying. What doesn't help is I smoothed on a real nice coat of tb3 after laying down the sinew, next time if I use titebond I won't do this.
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Eddie, the best method I've found to prevent tiller change, is to first get the bow shooting, making sure tiller stays put, then apply even amounts of sinew to each limb. You can either weigh the sinew out using a grain scale, or place a balance mark center of the bow, and then file/scrape/sand (if necessary) the sinew to maintain balance.
Toomanyknots, I agree, don't apply any more glue once the sinewing job is complete. I don't dip my sinew bundles in glue, but rather lay them in a shallow pan with it's bottom barely covered with glue. This way only the bottom of the sinew bundle is saturated with glue. Once my back has dried, then filed/scraped/sanded will I add another coating of the TB3 glue. Really speeds up drying............. Art
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Ok, thanks art and mullet. ;D Btw, one thing that happens to me always is when pulling sinew bundles out of the soaking pan I get all the sinew mixed up and tied in sinew knots and stuff. So I end up having to bundle each sinew bundle up again or come out with uneven bundles or whatnot. It's not that bad but it is dependably aggravating. lol What would you guys think of, instead of soaking the sinew in water altogether, just dipping each bundle in real hot water for a couple seconds or so, then applying glue individually? Thanks for all the tips yall also!
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There are some serious tips and assistance happening here...this place is such a wealth of knowledge. Dang, too bad we can't bottle it up and sell it or at least "rent" to the folks on here. Sure would be great to have a "tutor" in the basement as I went though challenging stuff like this...
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Sinew and hot water is going to cause you problems. The sinew will shrivel up on you and become useless.
To keep the bundles together, I first comb them out before putting into the glue pan. Then using a small stirring stick I raise up one end of the bundle up so I can grap it to keep it together. Hope that helps...........Art
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When I'm going from sinew in the warm water to laying it on the bow, I won't leave the sinew there long, just enough to get it flexible. I usually have a palmfull of TB I slide it through while also squeezing out excess water. When I get too much on my hands I'll wash them off in the bowl with the sinew.
There is another way of doing this that I learned from James Parker. But, I was swore it would be a secret. You will have to get that from him. ;)
Lee, it's free. here. ;D
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When can I book a flight to visit you Mullet? Preferrably during Gator, pig and Puma ( ::)) season ;D
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I saw someone else doing this, place the bundles of sinew in a clothspin while they soak in water. Helps keep them from turning into knots.
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Another way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYs2W2gurs&feature=related
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Awesome videos fuzi, I had thought I had seen all the youtube korean bow making videos on youtube. That guy had to of been using backstrap, it was longer than hell, I thought it was flax fiber at first! Welp, now my problem is that I got some limb twist. There is absolutely positively no way to fix it by removing wood, these limbs are extremely thin. After tillering they are less than 1/4" for alot of the limb. I have almost no idea how, but, it never fails come hell or high water that the siyahs don't line up. (This time they don't because of the limb twist.) One limb seems to be ok, (crosses fingers) but the other one is making the siyah move to the right so it twists real bad and is unbraceable. Although I have seemed to have tillering complete somehow, and with an unbraceable bow at that. ;D It's very light poundage wise. Gonna be 30 maybe 40 pounds if I'm lucky. That is if I can get the siyahs straight. Ill post some pics in a bit. I don't know is alignment is the whole issue, as maybe sinew being too heavy/strong on one side of the limb and weak on the other side of the limb could cause twist? I really don't know. Also, the siyahs and towards the handle were bandaged on using the linen thread soaked in tb3 method I use all the time. But this time it I did a crappy job, due to the limb being wider I didn't get as tight of a hold on the siyahs, so they were easily twisted too. Next time I really need to do that better. Heres how I bandage siyahs with glue soaked linen, I do two wraps in both directions that overlap each other as this is the only real way to make sure it is snug and tight:
First wrap
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2eki5gn.jpg)
Second wrap
(http://i55.tinypic.com/4sy6h1.jpg)
After that I put about 2 or 3 more coats of titebond 3 on. I just did a crappy job this time from the limb being about 1" wide or so at the tips and the base of the siyah (that is only butt jointed on with some titebond 3) is only 1/2" so you can see why it might not be such a good tite wrap. It kept the siyahs on fine, especially due to it being such a light draw weight bow (in the making), but I could tell the siyah was twisting and coming lose inside the wrap which was doing a piss poor job. Long story short, I'm an idiot, ;D... SOOO, in order to fix this limb twist/siyah twist problem, I cut the wrapping on the siyah that was twisting to the right with a razor blade and worked the base to where the siyah leaned to the left. Glued it back on with super glue this time instead of tb3. Don't know whats gonna happen, but this is what I did... I've had to do crap like this almost everytime I try something with siyahs, it gets so old. Is there something wrong with my eyes or somethin? And I was so excited about this making these types of bows because I thought it would be impossible for the siyahs to be misaligned because of the string not touching the siyah, I thought that the pressure of the braced string would just pull the siyahs straight like on a normal selfbow where the tips aren't super straight??? ... :-[ Welp, I guess one of the notes I have to put down after my first little trial run is gonna be "A little less angled reflex on the siyahs to reduce the chance of limb twist like this guy"
"The only difference between their reconstructions was the form of the unstrung bow. Fabian built much less reflexed bows, thereby reducing the risk of limb twist, but also reducing the efficiency of the bow." (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BM-sSRjrHvsJ:www.atarn.org/magyar/magyar_2/bow.htm+magyar+limb+twist&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/34td1f7.jpg)
::)
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Well I don't have alot of experience with limb twist on very wide thin thickness limbs, but I know I get it more often than not with thin wide limbs. Especially with limbs that are wide at the tips. I think this my be the main problem. I guess the limb twist could of been caused by the sinew being stronger on one side of the limb than the other as well? As I believe the alignment probably was not the problem. I can't say for sure though. Anybody have experience with this? Like I said earlier, I took the siyah off and put it back on leaning to the left to counter act the limb twisting to the right, which kind of is working for now, it still bends a bit, but seems for the most part stable. Probably due to the light draw weight of the bow. I would guess this bow to be about 30# at 32" Or maybe even 20#. It's very light weight. It shoots an arrow alright for the weight I guess. Anyway, has anyone ever fixed limb twist by adding sinew to the weaker side of the limb? I know this would drive me crazy to keep adding sinew here, or sinew there, and then having this side heavier so I would have to add some over here now, and some more over there now, exc exc exc... I have heard that sanding the sinew to tiller the bow can work as well. Would an option for me of been to sand the sinew on the stronger side of the limb to fix the twist? Also, although the limb on the more twisty limb is kind of working for now, or at least not twisting to the point of being unshootable, the other limb now wants to twist a bit and is either gonna be reattached or something as the limb just doesn't wanna be fixed by sanding the weaker side of the limb. So I might just take the freaking siyahs off to save em for a different bow and say screw it. I don't know. It's about done in my book. I've about had it with this thing, too much work for some twisty annoying crap, might as well just start a new one with less reflex less wide limbs and (I suspect that the reason for the limbs twisting so much may be from the 1" wide tips, everytime I make a bow with wide tips it twists, but I don't know for sure, I just think it is. Either way next time the the limbs will be pyramid tapered to 1/2" or less instead. Heres some pics:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnic1.jpg)
Like a 7" brace here. I've had to brace to like 20" dead serious (I don't even know why, just kinda happened, lol), so 1" or set aint too bad IMO. I thought it was gonna be too short of a bow, but if everything would of worked with this bow then it would of easily been a 32" draw bow. I think that I need help figuring out how to reduce the chance of limb twist as well as fix it when it happens.
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicb.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicbb.jpg)
The sinew backing (with titebond 3)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicc.jpg)
Bulbous handle...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicd.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnice.jpg)
You can see the stupied twist here...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicf.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicg.jpg)\
You can see how I made the siyah lean to the left in this picture to counter act the limb twist, it has been sort of working, but if it was a heavier bow it would of probably ripped off by now... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnich.jpg)
Fulldraw
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnici.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/toomanyknots/piece%20of%20shit%20bow/hunnicj.jpg)
Heres a link to a video I took this morning shooting it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMm9KSXpkbs
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Other than the twist(I have no advice there) and the lower draw weight,id say it looks pretty cool from the side profile and full draw. ;) what's up with that string by the way. And looks like you just need a lil different design and maybe different wood choice next time and you might be able to get it right and much more to your liking. All in all I don't think its a bad job. More like a learning experience to make it better the next time :)
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"Other than the twist(I have no advice there) and the lower draw weight,id say it looks pretty cool from the side profile and full draw."
Thank you. I basically copied a hunnis design though, minus the horn belly.
"what's up with that string by the way."
lol, it's just some cord I was using. I couldn't see going and making a proper string for any reason.
"maybe different wood choice"
I'm happy with red oak, works fine. In fact I'm sure a very poor quality wood would even work in this case. I didn't really reflex it too much before sinewing or anything and I would think that the limbs are way too thin and bend way to little to cause compression problems.
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i realy like that,id like to try one of them one day,i think you did a great job with it.
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I think you did a pretty good job, and probably learned a whole load of stuff. To make these asian style bows is harder than people first think. Its one thing to copy the profiles but another to get a good performance out of them, I tried a few and It takes a lot of experience, then the potential is for very good bows.. I haven't achieved that my self yet..... one day....
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really good first attempt,, im sure you learned quite a bit from this bow,,, i suggest you get adam karpowiccz book also, it will give you more info of what methods you can use to build this type bow,, although the book does not cover this type bow ,it can give you more insight on building horn composites.. save all your sinew for real horn composite bows,, i think it is such a waste to use it towards bows that are not true horn bows,, go to an art supply and get you some pearl glue or make your glue from sinew scraps,, adams book covers a ll the info you will need ,as far as materials. and how to make them .... you already have the plans for that bow, steer horns will work for that stlye bow, ive built four of these bows,,, i will be posting one just like it in a few days,maybe you can get some ideas from the pics. again- i think you did a fine job with what you had to work with, let me know if you need help getting horns , i know a few guys that have steer horns.......... jp :)
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"adam karpowiccz book also, it will give you more info of what methods you can use to build this type bow,, although the book does not cover this type bow ,it can give you more insight on building horn composites.. save all your sinew for real horn composite bows,,"
Shoot, I'm happy playing with wood right now, I totally do not have time to go boiling and rasping horn right now, ;D. When I can get the freaking siyahs to stop twisting consistently I might think about it. My goal really is to make a bow in a hunnic style out of sinew backed wood without a horn belly successfully and in way that can be successfully repeated. Then, after I got that done, I will have some fun... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
"really good first attempt,, im sure you learned quite a bit from this bow,"
What I have found was:
1. My dimensions were bigger than I thought they were at first, were as I was afraid of them being to small. ALso, I have acquired some good dimensions to go off of.
2. I have made the educated guess that the tips must not be wide but taper to a point like a 1/2" or else there is more of a chance to twist. (I am just thinking this personally and don't know for sure, but I'm going to go by it from now on)
3. I don't like sinewing with titebond 3. It works fine, but drys slow, and I personally don't like the look of it compared to sinew or hide glue. ;D
4. I learned that my method of bandaging on siyahs on a wide limb tip does not work with the specific way I make and attach siyahs.
So yes your right, although it was a failure pretty much, I still did learn so things. :)
"i will be posting one just like it in a few days,maybe you can get some ideas from the pics"
CANNOT WAIT! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The twist scares me but it looks great from the side. Glad to see it come together for ya. :)
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Hey Bud,
Dont want to highjack yer thread......wanted ya to know that sinew backed bow ya give me.....picked up a few pounds, shoots like a big dog....and is just a sweet as ever.
Dont know about your Hunnic bows but some of the Chinese bows of the same type had pieces of wood or bone (like quarter-round that were glued into the corner where the Siyah stands up off the limb tip, then that was blended in and then wrapped. I believe that the Khartan bows from the Gobi (ATARN site) shows that in an x-ray.
rich
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"Hey Bud,
Dont want to highjack yer thread......wanted ya to know that sinew backed bow ya give me.....picked up a few pounds, shoots like a big dog....and is just a sweet as ever."
Sweet. Glad to here it doesn't have a dozen things wrong with it like most of the other bows I make, ;D ;D ;D
"Dont know about your Hunnic bows but some of the Chinese bows of the same type had pieces of wood or bone (like quarter-round that were glued into the corner where the Siyah stands up off the limb tip, then that was blended in and then wrapped. I believe that the Khartan bows from the Gobi (ATARN site) shows that in an x-ray.
rich"
Maybe that was to keep it from twisting? ??? I don't know whats the difference between those hunnic bows and those chinese bows you showed me a while back actually. For that matter I really don't know the difference between a hunnic and a hungarian or hun bow! lol Those chinese bows you showed me were what I was copying. I'm gonna go check it out rich, thank ya for the tip, ;D
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I like that bow profile a lot ;D
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Great work! i love your approach to bowmaking. cant wait to see your next go at it :) I am going to try one of those someday, so ill need to see how you deal with the limb twist issues ;)
I have got a slightly off topic question: Would moose antler work in place of a horn belly?? ive got a bunch of it layin around.
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I surely would'nt get in a hurry sence your this far along. I'd wait at least a week between layers and 2 weeks after the last layer is on. Like I said no reason to have it fail because of something you did wrong.
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That twist looks like a minor issue to me. Some very gentle application of heat and counter twist should take care of it. Some warmth from a hair dryer or heat lamp is plenty. I get some twist at first with every narrow static tipped recurve I build no matter how careful I am and it was a relief to learn how easy it was to fix.
-Alan
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I think you're overcomplicating the construction and worrying too much about the stress on the wood with this design. If you would just back off the angle of the static tips(ther original Hun bows show a shallower angle) and use a better belly wood you can substantially narrow the design and come in at about 60 inches which also is pretty close to the original length.
I'll hunt around for the picture of the Hun style bow I made about ten years ago. Still going strong and substantially narrower than yours.
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"That twist looks like a minor issue to me. Some very gentle application of heat and counter twist should take care of it. Some warmth from a hair dryer or heat lamp is plenty. I get some twist at first with every narrow static tipped recurve I build no matter how careful I am and it was a relief to learn how easy it was to fix."
Thats good to know. Do you heat just the sinew or both sinew and wood? Or were you talking of just wood bows? And what do you use to heat your bows personally? I actually ended up breaking off one of the siyahs with this bow from bending it backwards (don't ask, ;)), so I decided to see how far I could bend the bow without it breaking. It seems that it broke pretty easily sinew and all. I don't think my sinew is the best sinew, it's probably been baked or something which makes it weaker than normal sinew. It was only one layer though.
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Don't discount the fact that you can just twist a warped limb by hand and train it to straighten out. Hold one end between your feet and twist with both hands. It goes without saying that you want very sound joints on your siyah to take the torque. A v splice and a good binding takes care of that.
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man, that looks pretty good. definitely should put another layer of sinew on it! raise the weight a bit. i think the wide limbs and narrow thickness helped it with compression issue.