Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Dag on June 05, 2011, 02:58:25 am
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What types of warbow loose's are there? I know of the popular rolling loose for flight shoots. Are there any more? For some reason I recall hearing of a "D" loose. I cant remember where or when I heard or read about it. Just curious.
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sorry for my ignorance, but what is a loose ???
thanks
noel
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sorry for my ignorance, but what is a loose ???
thanks
noel
the letting go of the string/arrow ;)
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I think that once you are holding over 100 pounds on your fingers, letting go isn't much of an issue ::).
Del
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I've not heard of a D loose.
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I think that once you are holding over 100 pounds on your fingers, letting go isn't much of an issue ::).
Del
Bad kitty!
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There isn't any type of loose there is no such thing as a D loose, the rolling loose well as much as I like the people that use it isn't a theory certainly not a fact, they look at period artwork where the archers is drawing low and copy that as the first movement. It works for some but if you look at the physics they are only losing power by doing it.
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Ok, thanks guys :) Must have just been my imagination then. There was a youtube vid posted by G. Carnie demonstrating the "rolling loose" which sparked my curiosity. I prefer to draw and loose as Mark Stretton does, with the backside sticking out. I get made fun of at my club but it makes pulling heavy draw weights so easy I see no reason why someone can't reach 100+ lbs in a month or two.
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Ok, thanks guys :) Must have just been my imagination then. There was a youtube vid posted by G. Carnie demonstrating the "rolling loose" which sparked my curiosity. I prefer to draw and loose as Mark Stretton does, with the backside sticking out. I get made fun of at my club but it makes pulling heavy draw weights so easy I see no reason why someone can't reach 100+ lbs in a month or two.
Ah, that sounds more like methods of draw rather than loose...
And I'd agree that one needs to find a way to utilse the whole body...I'd love to see one of those target archers who blether on about form, trying a T draw on a 100lb bow >:D
Del
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'Sticking your butt out' while drawing is actually proper form for drawing heavy bows, and is called 'shooting in (into) the bow.' It allows you to use your entire body to draw a heavy bow. As far as the loose goes, I prefer not to use a rolling loose, but rather a sustained loose, more like conventional flight shooters. For pure flight shooting, the longer you leave the bow at full draw, the less cast it will have. Flight shooters almost snap shoot, only allowing the bow to remain at full draw for a very brief instant. A rolling loose requires a much longer period of having the heavy bow at full draw. All that jumping and lungng forward is also unnecessary. It looks good, but imparts no extra energy to the arrow. I think some guys do that to make sure they are following through.
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while reading this I became curious ??? as to what a rolling loose is, so i looked it up on youtube and this is the first vid I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyEIk_INOaY (yes this is the one mentioned above)
first I need to state a couple (humble) things: while I have little knowledge on heavy draw weight bows("warbows") I do have the experience of teaching youth (anywhere from 6-17) and adults (I've been the archery director at a boy scout summer camp for a few years, and have run ranges for the council for a little while before that); also I'm also working on my physics degree.
Teaching the youth (under 12 usually) is some of the most fun I've ever had but the thing is they sometimes have trouble drawing 15-20# bows. So I teach them a different way to draw the string, in which they use both arms to draw the bow and to loose quickly (more on this in a sec). After having watched this vid several times I see some things I like about it and well 1 thing I don't like.
That is the pushing off w/ the back foot; from a instructor point of view (especially for those who are new to this) it has safety hazard written all over it; from a physics point of view it does very little to add to speed to the arrow (this is assuming the release of the arrow and push off are timed perfect) the reason for this is that they (the push and and launch of the arrow) are 2 different force vectors and only a small part of the pushing vector is imparted onto the launch vector, but it is added (if done exactly right)
The only other problem is consistency, with a modern style draw you can be very consistent w/ your shots (necessary for target shooting, dosen't matter much if you plan on taking out an invading army); using this push off method makes it so that you have to reset your stance every time, and I'll be honest for us guys that is not an easy thing to do (w/o massive, constant practicing) , but ladies have an easier time w/ it, don't ask me why thats just how it is.
Now the way I teach youth who have problems drawing certain weights is this:
first hold the bow so arrow points to the ground infront of them
next draw the string to they're cheek/corner of mouth (where ever they're drawing to)
while drawing bring the bow up to where they are aiming
once they have it on target loose
Is this similar to how flight shooters do it?
sorry for being soo long winded, but my opinions usually are :)...
--Mark R.
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With respect I think you have missed the point a little,
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With respect I think you have missed the point a little,
I'd have to agree.
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Marz5 ,
I agree with you, logically the "rolling Loose" should add next to nothing to the forces driving the arrow, but as I understand it all the current EWBS record holders use the method and believe they gain distance using it, so either the method does indeed work or something in the process permits a smoother loose and by doing so permits longer distances to be shot.
Craig.
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With respect I think you have missed the point a little,
I do apologize for that, and shall restate it simply:
Why do they push off w/ the back foot in a rolling loose?
Also how does a flight shooter draw?
--Mark R.
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Marz5 ,
I agree with you, logically the "rolling Loose" should add next to nothing to the forces driving the arrow, but as I understand it all the current EWBS record holders use the method and believe they gain distance using it, so either the method does indeed work or something in the process permits a smoother loose and by doing so permits longer distances to be shot.
Craig.
No they don't, it depends what you mean when you say rolling loose many people push off with their back leg not everyone does a rolling loose, you don't gain anything by just pushing forward other than the 1-2 mile per hour that you pushed off by its all about getting a clean loose, namely pushing the bow forwards I cant go into to much detail as its not fair to the people that have told me thing in confidence. Only one of the guys who gets big distances uses the rolling loose the others just follow the bow.
I have to say im not a fan of the R loose, it works but not for the reasons that people think it does.
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The rolling loose introduces the hip adductor muscles on the bow arm side and the hip abductors on the string side into the draw sequence . That couples with the hip flexors brings the centre of mass of the archer closer to the arrow draw direction reducing the shoulder adductor rotational moment.
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Marz5 ,
I agree with you, logically the "rolling Loose" should add next to nothing to the forces driving the arrow, but as I understand it all the current EWBS record holders use the method and believe they gain distance using it, so either the method does indeed work or something in the process permits a smoother loose and by doing so permits longer distances to be shot.
Craig.
No they don't, it depends what you mean when you say rolling loose many people push off with their back leg not everyone does a rolling loose, you don't gain anything by just pushing forward other than the 1-2 mile per hour that you pushed off by its all about getting a clean loose, namely pushing the bow forwards I cant go into to much detail as its not fair to the people that have told me thing in confidence. Only one of the guys who gets big distances uses the rolling loose the others just follow the bow.
Ian, I presume you know better than I but I think you will have to explain the difference.
I cannot find videos of Alistair Aston, Glennan Carnie (I'm sure I have seen him shooting but cannot find it) or the Welsh Class holder Ian Sturgess, however the holder of 8 of the 12 records, Joe Gibb, seems to use the rolling loose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q8q6da68g0&feature=related
Now to me that means as a minimum 50% of the records were gained by the use of the rolling loose so while it may be true the majority of the record holders don't use the rolling loose it is also true that the the majority of the distance records were gained using it. So back to my assumption that "either the method does indeed work or something in the process permits a smoother loose and by doing so permits longer distances to be shot".
Craig.
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Marz5 ,
I agree with you, logically the "rolling Loose" should add next to nothing to the forces driving the arrow, but as I understand it all the current EWBS record holders use the method and believe they gain distance using it, so either the method does indeed work or something in the process permits a smoother loose and by doing so permits longer distances to be shot.
Craig.
No they don't, it depends what you mean when you say rolling loose many people push off with their back leg not everyone does a rolling loose, you don't gain anything by just pushing forward other than the 1-2 mile per hour that you pushed off by its all about getting a clean loose, namely pushing the bow forwards I cant go into to much detail as its not fair to the people that have told me thing in confidence. Only one of the guys who gets big distances uses the rolling loose the others just follow the bow.
Ian, I presume you know better than I but I think you will have to explain the difference.
I cannot find videos of Alistair Aston, Glennan Carnie (I'm sure I have seen him shooting but cannot find it) or the Welsh Class holder Ian Sturgess, however the holder of 8 of the 12 records, Joe Gibb, seems to use the rolling loose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q8q6da68g0&feature=related
Now to me that means as a minimum 50% of the records were gained by the use of the rolling loose so while it may be true the majority of the record holders don't use the rolling loose it is also true that the the majority of the distance records were gained using it. So back to my assumption that "either the method does indeed work or something in the process permits a smoother loose and by doing so permits longer distances to be shot".
Craig.
Speaking of using it looking at the table you are right most of the distance were gained with the R loose but then again most of it was the same bow.
Defiantly the loose help some people, what you have to take into account is how the bow without any technique does as we all know some bows are faster than others. The less time you hold a bow at full draw the faster it will be, its more physics than bow making, defiantly try it but if you work hard at anything for a few years your going to get good at it, its what they are used to and they know its working in the past so they keep doing it.