Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PEARL DRUMS on May 23, 2011, 12:52:14 pm

Title: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on May 23, 2011, 12:52:14 pm
Anybody use any of the FF type of string materials on their self bows? I was thinking about trying some D-97 rather than B-50.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Parnell on May 23, 2011, 12:59:39 pm
Just got some in the mail this weekend.  Made a string and put it on my Osage bow.  Made a noticeable difference in the bow's performance.  I figured it would even before I shot it, just giving the bow a small pluck, the pitch was much higher and more taught.  It did shoot better.
I have buffalo horn overlays on that bow.  Everyone says make sure you've got a tough tip overlay or it will cut through over time.  That bow is about 55#, don't know if you need a certain draw weight to notice a difference. 
It even comes in neon colors.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on May 23, 2011, 01:17:10 pm
I dont use tip overlays generally. The D-97 is about the size of B-55, makes me wonder why it would cut through, and just how long that might take? I suppose I could pad the loops with wool yarn first.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: HatchA on May 23, 2011, 01:30:55 pm
I've got some B-55 that I've yet to make a string with.  Never did really understand the differences/significances of Dacron versus FF... :-\ ???
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on May 23, 2011, 01:43:34 pm
55 is nice stuff Hatch. FF is more quiet and faster is all. Its a world of difference.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Cameroo on May 23, 2011, 03:03:58 pm
I believe the difference is that fast flight basically doesn't stretch, so when you release the arrow and the string slams home, your limbs have to absorb more of the energy that would have been absorbed into a stretchier string.

Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Traxx on May 23, 2011, 03:25:49 pm
Ted Fry,Has been useing it on Self and backed bows for years.He said he has used it on self bows without overlays on many of his sold bows without problems.As a matter of fact,he told me,he has tried strings from just about everything you can think of,Primitive and non and has come to preferr the non stretch modern strings.Personally,i use b 50.There is no reason,you couldnt add B50,into the loops,if it worries you.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on May 23, 2011, 03:33:44 pm
The no stretch is good for the bow and arrow. I think I will get some 97 on order and try it out. If the limbs dont flop back and forth after release it has to be better fo the wood it seems. I use VERY heavy ash shafts so my bow limbs usually dont have much unused energy left over.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Del the cat on May 23, 2011, 03:59:37 pm
I've just put an Angel Majesty (don't you love those daft Japanese names?) sting on my latest 50# Yew longbow, it's almost as fast as my old 75#. you can feel the slightly harder tension when you pluck it. Dunno if it effect my accuracy 'cos I don't have much anyway ;).
I don't think it should be a prob', but then I use continuous loop strings with serving on the loops.
Del
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Kegan on May 23, 2011, 04:35:32 pm
I hate Dacron. That stuff stretches and stretches and stretches and... Fast Flight doesn't. I don't use overlays, but simply splice a few strands of B50 into each loop. Harder woods, like ipe, are sufficient protection though. Even on my heavy bows I haven't had any problems.

Frankly, after making both modern composites and lots of selfbows, I think modern bows are more in trouble with high performance strings. Fiberglass likes to split and crack like crazy compared to wood, which just sorta smushes at first.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Postman on May 23, 2011, 11:57:31 pm
I dont use tip overlays generally. The D-97 is about the size of B-55, makes me wonder why it would cut through, and just how long that might take? I suppose I could pad the loops with wool yarn first.

...or use the felt pads off your cymbal stands ;)

 sorry - had me a set of pearls back in the day.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Will H on May 24, 2011, 01:01:25 am
I made the switch to FF recently. I like it. It cuts down on handshock and adds some speed. Do yourself a favor and try it out.  ;)
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Del the cat on May 24, 2011, 04:48:25 am
Fiberglass likes to split and crack like crazy compared to wood, which just sorta smushes at first.
Ha, another new word in the bowyers lexicon ;D.
It's a good description of how it reacts, copmresses and deforms to conform with the shape of the sting is waaaay too many words.
'Smushes' says it better!
Del
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Kegan on May 24, 2011, 12:28:43 pm
Fiberglass likes to split and crack like crazy compared to wood, which just sorta smushes at first.
Ha, another new word in the bowyers lexicon ;D.
It's a good description of how it reacts, copmresses and deforms to conform with the shape of the sting is waaaay too many words.
'Smushes' says it better!
Del

As soon as you see it you know... it's smushed ;D
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Weylin on May 24, 2011, 02:27:26 pm
While we have people talking about bow string... I'm looking to buy my first spool of bow string. What specific FF product do you recommend for 50-60# selfbows and where is a place that sells it for a good price. What is a good price?

Thanks
Weylin
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on May 24, 2011, 02:33:45 pm
Im buying D97 to try. The price seems to be close anywhere you find it.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on June 14, 2011, 09:17:22 am
I finally pulled the trigger and bought some D-10......................WHY didint I do this years ago? The bow noise is all but gone, its all of 5-8 fps faster and I cant feel the bow in my hand at all. I padded each loop with one strand of b-55. The string itself is a 12 strand. The difference is amazing. As far as it being bad on the limbs because of the no-stretch, I think its better. Allot more, if not all energy is transferred to the arrow and NOT the bow. I cant wait to get home tonite and make another one for a different bow and see what she does.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Marc St Louis on June 14, 2011, 09:26:54 am
While we have people talking about bow string... I'm looking to buy my first spool of bow string. What specific FF product do you recommend for 50-60# selfbows and where is a place that sells it for a good price. What is a good price?

Thanks
Weylin

I have used FF, D75 and FF plus.  All work equally well.  Sometimes you can find it at quite a good price on e-bay.  I bought some FF plus there for $24/1/4#, can't beat that price
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: crooketarrow on June 14, 2011, 11:41:30 am
  Back in the early 90's I bought 32 FF strings at a flea market for $50.00. I used them untill 97 or 98. I'm not into the speed thing but but them on every bow I could. I found out that they will increase speed uselly 8 to 12 fps and inprove cast depending on the bow. I know people do all kinds of things to beff up there tips I never did and never had any problems. I don't make it a point unless some one wants one. But have used them on a few bows sence them. I see no reason not to use them if you want to.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Elktracker on June 14, 2011, 01:47:35 pm
While we have people talking about bow string... I'm looking to buy my first spool of bow string. What specific FF product do you recommend for 50-60# selfbows and where is a place that sells it for a good price. What is a good price?

Thanks
Weylin

PM sent
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: dragonman on June 14, 2011, 02:27:07 pm
I always read that non-stretch strings send more vibration into the bow and could stress glue joints etc.and damage the wood..... Does it appear that this is another myth??  how can I be sure before I try it on one of my precious bows?? I do like the idea of more speed.  I can not see why it would wear out a horn or antler tip overlays though?
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on June 14, 2011, 02:30:16 pm
They create less vibration because they deliver the energy your bow creates to the arrow rather than a stretchy string oscillating round and round. I took the silencers off my bow last night because they arent needed anymore.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: R H Clark on June 14, 2011, 02:55:32 pm
I always read that non-stretch strings send more vibration into the bow and could stress glue joints etc.and damage the wood..... Does it appear that this is another myth??  how can I be sure before I try it on one of my precious bows?? I do like the idea of more speed.  I can not see why it would wear out a horn or antler tip overlays though?

If it were more vibration you could feel it. Handshock is just the left over energy in the form of vibration that you can feel in the bow.That's why heavy arrows help handshock.They help the bow use up more energy.Most people feel less handshock with lower stretch strings like D97.

IMHO most problems are caused by low strand count in the loops and poorly designed tips.When you have a square tip with sharp corners and small hard string all the energy is concentrated on thoes corners and can cause failure. Pad the tips with B-50 to 16 strands and add an overlay so the string sits in a rounded grove to eliminate thoes problems. The nock groves should also be cut to the natural angle the string wants to sit at brace. That way the string isn't fighting against the tips every shot.

 
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: adb on June 14, 2011, 03:04:37 pm
Anybody use any of the FF type of string materials on their self bows? I was thinking about trying some D-97 rather than B-50.
Yes. Nothing but, on bows over 50#.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: snag on June 14, 2011, 03:21:49 pm
I was told by a glass recurve bowyer that he likes "Astro" FF string better than D97.  He switched to this string for all the bows he builds for people unless they request another type.
I wonder if FF will over time split an older glass bow, like a Bear, then why it wouldn't do the same thing for to an all wood selfbow? I mean you have end grain that the string is pulling against. With the more force that a FF string puts on that contact point it would seem at some point in time it would split???? Just typing out loud....But it sounds like others have had no problems. Just makes me a little nervous.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on June 14, 2011, 03:29:47 pm
Davis FF strings are made out to be evil scary monsters. Thats jsut not true when used correctly. IMHO dacron is worse for a bow because of left over energy getting slammed back into the bow rather than the arrow.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Lee Slikkers on June 14, 2011, 03:34:14 pm
Well, NOW you all start confessing the truth after I just got my package of 5 spools of B-50 from 3 Riv's....  :-\
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Kegan on June 14, 2011, 08:44:00 pm
I was told by a glass recurve bowyer that he likes "Astro" FF string better than D97.  He switched to this string for all the bows he builds for people unless they request another type.
I wonder if FF will over time split an older glass bow, like a Bear, then why it wouldn't do the same thing for to an all wood selfbow? I mean you have end grain that the string is pulling against. With the more force that a FF string puts on that contact point it would seem at some point in time it would split???? Just typing out loud....But it sounds like others have had no problems. Just makes me a little nervous.

On my high-performance hybrid bows (FG composites) I have to make sure there are no sharp edges exposed, and that I use a good pheonolic tip overlay. Not huge, like you see everywhere else, but a solid 1/8". Fiberglass will cut the string as the wood in the limbs gets "smushed". Older Bear bows and what not are not built to be so durable, as B50 was the stirng of choice and they didn't have to worry. On selfbows, even my really heavy ones (over 80#) this smushing was the extent of the damage so long as A) the pin nock was not so narrow it would get sheared off (at least 1/4" wide) and B) the loops were padded so that it was not a tiny-diameter cable. I don't take this step with my hybrids but I don't like using overlays on selfbows and so just beef the loop diameter up. After lots of lots of arrows- no issues. I suspect most reports of damage resulted from folks just not taking all the precautions, and just using it like B50. Naturally, there's no such thing as a free lunch ;)
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on June 14, 2011, 10:34:22 pm
Don't feel badly, Lee. I don't use FF or any other incarnation of it either. Ole Jawge don't make them fancy bows like them others fellow do. :) Jawge
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Lee Slikkers on June 14, 2011, 10:50:41 pm
Well, I'm sure this B50 will suit me fine for a while...finally learned how to tie a bow string this week  ::) and I've been a busy fool.  Just tied up a nice "fresh" one, served with a nock point which the old string didn't have and had the "new-ish" bow out shooting tonight.  Shot the best I've shot with her yet.  She was a swap/trade for a Filson coat...it's a nice James Parker Boo back Boo, called the Dragon I think...#48 @ 28 and I like her a lot!

Was more fun shooting her than busting my attempt at a Pit Style bow this afternoon  ::)

Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Keenan on June 15, 2011, 12:16:45 pm
Been using FF on mine with no problems but I do antler or horn overlays on everything. Juniper Junky just had a FF string cut right through the tip of a yew bow. Said it looked like it had been cut with a saw.  They perform much better due to the no stretch factor.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on June 15, 2011, 12:42:32 pm
Keenan isnt Yew a softer wood though? I have never touched it or seen it in person.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Pappy on June 15, 2011, 01:00:23 pm
I would say with yew you would need overlays,it is pretty soft, Never tried any FF but know a lot that use it with no problem,I still use b50,hadn't seen any real reason to change,and have plenty of it. :)With all the folks going to FF ,b50 was never really that high but now it's even cheaper when you find it at the right places. ;D ;D ;D ;D
   Pappy
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Bullitt on June 15, 2011, 01:57:38 pm
Yep been shootin it since 1990, on my selfbows and bbo. Built strings for Black Widow Bow Co at the time and had to try it.
Good Stuff!

Spent this last weekend at Cloverdale shootin all 3 days with Gary Davis. He's fnely shootin it, D97, on his bows! After all the years I preached him to try it, even sent him a string to try a couple years ago. After shootin his DVD, Darryl,  had told him the difference it made on his selfbow!  Took a camera man to convince him, not the Movie Star! ;D
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Weylin on June 19, 2011, 12:00:46 am
I've got a yew bow with a FF string and no overlays. All this talk makes me a little nervous. I'd hate to cut through my tips. It's the bow I made with John Strunk, he didn't seem worried about it when we made it, so I don't know... Am I really asking for trouble? the bow's about 50#. Can I put overlays on retroactively? I have 6 layers of Tru-oil on it already.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Bullitt on June 19, 2011, 12:28:19 am
Weylin, what is the strand count in the loops!  If the loops are padded well, I personally don't think you need any overlays! They are just protecting the small string from cutting or splitting the wood.

You can either reinforce the tips or reinforce the loops, not a whole lot of difference IMO.

Shooting an arrow with proper mass weigth is  critical , also!
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Weylin on June 19, 2011, 12:47:20 am
Ok, if I remember correctly... It's a flemish loop with 16 strands of each color so 32 total. does that sound right? If that sounds like way too many then it was 8 for each color for a total of 16. Ugh, my memory is not what it used to be.  ::)
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Gordon on June 19, 2011, 12:01:39 pm
Quote
I've got a yew bow with a FF string and no overlays. All this talk makes me a little nervous. I'd hate to cut through my tips.

Weylin, a lot has to do with how the groves are cut. If the string groves are cut at too much of an angle right where they come off the back that will create narrow shoulders that are prone to shearing. I've spent a good deal of time examining the nocks on John's bows and what he does is start the grove at a low angle and then curve toward the belly. It's unlikely that the nocks on John's bow are going to give you any trouble. That said, it's not difficult to put on overlays after the fact - I've done that many times.
Title: Re: FF strings on wood bows?
Post by: Weylin on June 19, 2011, 02:32:44 pm
ok, thanks Gordon. That makes me feel better.