Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: luke the drifter on April 28, 2011, 11:08:41 pm
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my biggest thing against rivercane is the nodes. i tried grinding them off but i am leery of doing that. heating them up and trying to press/roll them out either does not work or i am not doing that right, probably the latter. my main concentration has been to shoot/make light arrows. i have been lucky on some smaller diameter rivercane and was able to work around the node problem to my satisfaction. the nodes make for some rough takeoff from the bow. is that to be expected and do need to not worry about the node problem. because i am thinking that as it leaves the bow it will/might correct itself eventually in the arrow flight. i can make a pretty good arrow regardless but am always looking to improve.
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I hear ya man. None of my cane arrows have ever come out laser straight. As for the nodes I just try and smooth them down a little bit without thinning the wall of the cane. And on the accuracy I hung a coke can from a tree and hit it twice from 15 yards. They do fish tail but tend to straighten out in flight. What I love about river cane is it's free :D. And there is just not a whole lot you can get for free anymore.
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the cane arrows i received from hillbilly61 are some of the best shooting arrows i've ever had.
that said, i too have had a helluva time getting em straight enough.
but i keep trying...
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just reading some of the older posts trying to get a grip on makeing arrows and came to this one and maybe if we get this arround again we might get more answers so come on arrowsmiths out there help us out , what is the best way to even out the nodes, I too have tryed to heat and row them out and I have sanded them out this works best for me but have read this isn't the best way to do it, the other thing is at the top of the shaft the nodes step down kinda , thanks for any help.I got lots of river cane cut and dryed.
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I generally heat and compress the nodes and know others that sand them smooth. Both methods work well to reduce the size of the nodes. You have to do this after the cane shafts have been straightened or they will break at the node while straightening. If your arrow is tuned to you and your bow it should go around(archers paradox) the bow on release and not touch the bow at all. I also leave my cane(and hardwood shoot) arrows longer than my draw length. I cut them 29" to 30" for my 26" draw.
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Best I can tell, they don't have to be "arrow straight". Like a character bow, if the ends line up, you should be good ;)
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PatB gave me some River Cane starters...but the Texas Heat...and Wind...seems to have done them in...but I am still watering...and hoping!!
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i like my river cane arrows. ive filed them down. not all the way flat, but, pretty close. no breakage yet. and thats from a 55lb bow. course, i dont make pretty arrows, because i end up shooting them at stuff that i shouldnt shoot at. so when they break, i peel the feathers off and re use those lol.
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Mike, that is hill cane(Arundaneria appalaciana) I gave you and not river cane(A. gigantia). The hill cane is closer in appearance to
switch cane(A. tecta).
River cane has very pronounced nodes where the nodes on hill and switch cane are raised but only slightly.
Arrows don't have to be "straight as an arrow!" Like HoBow said as long as the point and nock line up there can be some deviations along the shaft and the arrow will still fly well.
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Yeah...believe Me...they don't have to be Straight...because I am too lazy to get them like Cora Knight does...When they are close...they get shot!!!
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Thanks to all, I knew ya'll would give us more insight on the nodes matter, and how does Cora do it I bought a dz from her last year they're better than my carbons, of course she use tonkin cane that could be part of it.Just thinking they say the plant stakes at lowes and home depot are tonkin anyone out there use them and are they easier to straighten compare to river cane,but of course if they don't have to be perfectly straight to shoot good river cane is free. thanks again to all.
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I do as PAT said straighten then I file the nodes off I file mine down all the way. I guess I did'nt know you should'nt file them all the way. Never had any fail but I'VE ONLY MADE A COUPLE DOZZEN. Not local to my area so I perfer shoots. People are right they don't have to be perfectly straight but I trive to get mine that way. The straighter the arrow the better it will fly period exspecially at longer ranges. If your going to stay 15 yards and under then you can shoot crooked arrows fine. Plus they just plain look better straight.
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OK, so while we are on this subject of Hill Cane and River Cane...which would grow better in lower western MI and does anyone have access to shoots or rhizomes that they would be willing to send to a guy wanting to grow his own?
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I generally heat and compress the nodes and know others that sand them smooth. Both methods work well to reduce the size of the nodes. You have to do this after the cane shafts have been straightened or they will break at the node while straightening. If your arrow is tuned to you and your bow it should go around(archers paradox) the bow on release and not touch the bow at all. I also leave my cane(and hardwood shoot) arrows longer than my draw length. I cut them 29" to 30" for my 26" draw.
You nailed it right on the nose Pat. If the arrow is spined right for your set up they should fly great. The one can arrow that I made shoots like a dart, but I chose a section of cane that was a bit more spine than what I would need for my bow and left it a full 30" long. I just sanded the nodes down enough to make them smooth and turned the cane shaft where the natural groove was facing away from the side of the bow, arrow point and nock are perpendicular to the groove. Try that and see if that helps ya any.
I'm not an expert cause I have only finished one cane arrow, but have more in the works.
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I scrape all the outer coating off my rivercane and that takes the nodes down a little. I spend a good amount of time straightening and I find that I don't have to worry about the nodes hitting the bow during release. If there is a big lump somewhere, I usually sand it down, though.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/02-22-09/018.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/02-21-09/120.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/02-21-09/113.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/02-21-09/114.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/02-22-09/020.jpg)
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I thought about using a steam iron on a metal plate and rolling the node under the iron.
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Lee, hill cane grows only in the Appalacian Mountains. You can grow river cane(A. gigantia) or switch cane(A. tecta) where you are. Switch cane is similar to hill cane.
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Lee, hill cane grows only in the Appalacian Mountains. You can grow river cane(A. gigantia) or switch cane(A. tecta) where you are. Switch cane is similar to hill cane.
Pat, thank you very much...I'll look into where I can try and pick some up. Would you happen to know if they are best planted in spring/summer or fall?
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Lee look up lewisbamboo.com they have river cane, they may be able to tell you the best time to plant, if you find out I could see about digging you up some and send your way.
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I had thought about digging up some root balls from the patch about an hour from my house and transplanting it here near the river where I live. No reason why it would grow an hour away and not here. I just haven't been back down there yet to get some and I believe it's the Gigantia variety cause it gets very tall and the older stalks are thick as broom handles.
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Contact your local Soil and Water Conservation office and see if they have a source. Around here they use it to stabilize the banks of the French Broad River and it's tributaries. If you transplant it be sure not to cut the culms off or it will take a few years before it sends up arrow length culms.
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Our conservation dept. did a restoration with it years and years ago on the St. Francois river and in some areas it's lousy thick with river cane, other areas none at all. They are a little bit protective of it and really don't allow cutting any cane down there, but I tracked down the agent in that area and spoke to him on the phone. I told him that I only wanted enough to make some arrows with and maybe a couple of root balls and he gave me the green light along with his cell phone number in case anybody gave me any trouble. He was especially interested when I mentioned something about transplanting some here where I live on Big River, he was all for that idea!
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My favorite cane is hill and switch, in that order Chris. Others that I've used include, river cane, sasa, bambusa, tonkin and Japanese arrow boo. Plus a number of other bamboos I couldn't ID. All of them can be made into some good shooters, but, I've found the hill and switch cane to be more consistant performance wise. But for a first class hunting arrow, the hill cane has topped any other boo/cane that I've used..........Art
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I still think those sourwood arra shafts are the top of the heap for premium wood shafts, sure wish we had those growing here in Missouri. I like it better than the premium POC shafts I've used.
If I'm gonna make any cane shafts though, I'd say the river cane we have here close to me is pretty good stuff, but time consuming to straighten. Course I'm sure they are all that way.
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You got the best of the "best" with that sourwood arrow arrow Chris. Not all sourwood grow or shoot like that one ;D. Both types get the job done, but the hill cane, with it's carbon-like properties, works best I think for those of us who have to use lighter tackle.........Art
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i like river cane and tomato stakes in that order! lol, first one is free, the second is easy to buy. i really like the japanese arrow boo, but i find, the thicker stuff is spined pretty stiff. but, i havent dealt with much of it though, but i really liked it! wish i could cut my own hill cane, im picky when it comes to my cutting my own. lol
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The reason crooked arrows fly so well is if there all spined the same they'll come off the bow at the same spot. The arrow only touchs the bow once and thats on release.
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Do any of you know how far north ANY of this cane grows?
One of you mentioned the Appalachian Mountains having it, but how far north?
Kev
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Hey Kev, I grew up in Portsmouth NH and the woods sometimes have dogwoods, cherry, and other shoots growing along the trails. I've never seen any cane, though...just reeds, and the reeds are not good for arrows.
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first all this is primitive not modern..you do not need to file your nodes down...arrows do not have to perfectly straight...I leave my nodes a tad proud anyway...hit them just a lil....and straighten till they spin like store bought....once they spin good they fly good....cane is really spine tolerable..you can get away with a lot more than any other shaft.....your arrow is gonna bend around the bow when shot so the nodes won't come into play like you would think they do.....gut
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thanks for your input gutpile and thats a nice looking set of arrows, how long and what type of cane.
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some type of river cane...this stuff is purple when cut, well some of it is and others are green...I got some that spines over 120 lbs...same diameter as some that spines 70..which is what I spine mine at...cut at 25 inches and foreshafted another 3..which brings my spine back down to what I need for my bows....they fly great..spin like store bought....and look as cool as it gets for primitive arrow..IMO...here is a pick of the foreshafts and some points...hunt ready....thanks..for the compliment...gut
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Haven't built any arrows yet...just completed my 1st true hunting weight bow and would love to add a quiver fill of hand made arrows with stone points to be out in the woods with this fall while chasing our local whitetails.
I have some cane from a Trade on here awhile back and I'd love to make some just like yours but I am a complete novice when it comes to understanding the whole spine, arrow weight, nock-point orientation, etc. Any tips or advice on how best to dumb this stuff down and get a newb flinging his 1st arrows? What do you use for fore shafting material?
Anyway, gorgeous arrows...you Knapp those points as well? (yup, another area I intend to get leaning on as well...)
Regards~
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yes I knap them as well...killed my biggest buck to date with a snakey osage bow,rivercane ,and stone point..143 6/8 8pt ...brute for here...I got the video full circle by Thad Beckam long before they started selling it here...I suggest you get it..covers almost everything..covers cane well...no need to make something so simple more complicated...which is what Thad does..he keeps it simple..I mean think about it....I build my cane the same way Thad does his.....if you have any problems trying to understand it then you are getting too complicated with the simplicity of primitive archery..trust me If I can do it anybody can..LOL.....but if you need some help I will give you all the help you need...gut
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Thanks gut, just ordered it...looks like a "must have" for my Library anyway ;)
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trust me you WILL NOT be disappointed with that video....after watching it you too will be making cane shafts no problem.....he also teaches brain tanning , smoking meat, cane arrows..little on knapping, building a bow, sinew string building, fire starting primitive style,how to make your own hide glue, couple of kills with stone points primitive style, has some humor too...long video....but best he keeps it real simple.......let me know how you like when you get to watch it...gut
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Lee just start exspearence comes as you build. It's not that hard if I can do it I'm sure you can. I was like you when I started did'nt know or have anyone to show me. I just read everything I come and just stared. You'll do fine if you really want to make arrows.
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trust me you WILL NOT be disappointed with that video....after watching it you too will be making cane shafts no problem.....he also teaches brain tanning , smoking meat, cane arrows..little on knapping, building a bow, sinew string building, fire starting primitive style,how to make your own hide glue, couple of kills with stone points primitive style, has some humor too...long video....but best he keeps it real simple.......let me know how you like when you get to watch it...gut
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It's a great video, I'd highly recommend it to anybody on here. My copy got thrown in my wife's laptop bag on accident and is scratched all to crap now. I think I need to order another one.
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Thanks guys and Crooketarrow. I DO want to make arrows so it's down to more of a" how to determine spine (without spending $200 on a spine tester) know which orientation for the nock/head slot. I think I can muddle through straightening issues and even fletching them. Don't have a father burner or a grinder so I'll have to figure that part out as well...
Thanks
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To spine my arrows I've got 2 dowel in my workbench that are 28" apart. I take a pencil and make a mark on the back of the bench along the top of the arrow, then add a 2 lb. weight and mark again. Measure the distance between the marks and figure out the spine. After a few you'll figure out where the arrow needs to end up to shoot well out of your bow and there's no need to measure. Finding the stiff side is pretty easy too. Lightly hold one end of the arrow and let the other end rest on a bench or something. Then just apply pressure to the middle, and the arrow will rotate until the stiff side is pointing down.
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That sounds simple enough...now, if I know the spine deflection and spine orientation in which manner to I align it (the spine) with the nock and the arrow head?
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Generally speaking you want the stiff side against the bow. Although, most times I don't see much difference in arrow flight if I put one on the string backwards.
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OK, so with the stiff spine against the bow the nock would have to be 90 degrees offset from the spine, correct? How about the blade/stone?
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OK, so with the stiff spine against the bow the nock would have to be 90 degrees offset from the spine, correct? How about the blade/stone?
Correct on the nock. I like my points 90 degrees from the nock, but I don't think it really matters.
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you can hand spine your shafts..just like the Indians did..they didn't have a spine tester....just get one of your shafts that work and hand spine them to match you will be within 5 lbs...and cane being so tolerable they will fly fine..keep it simple remember that.......spine them a tad stiff if you are foreshafting...I peel my feathers...he shows you how to do that in the video too...now you don't have to cut your notch in a node although if its there use it..if not I wrap mine with sinew and have yet to split my cane .....I like to line my points up the same way on all my shafts...STONE points that is or two blade..if using 3 blades you line them up to your fletchings....gut
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Thanks Gut, still impatiently awaiting the mailman's delivery... ::)
You said you prefer to line you blades/stone the same way, is it the same as the nock groove or 90 to that?
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actually mine are at a 45 to the nock.......they aren't all perfectly lined up either but darn close...I glue up my heads on the foreshaft before inserting in cane..so I try to get them fairly close but really depends on where the foreshaft lines up in cane to spin without a wobble..thats where they stay...I mark cane and foreshaft with a pencil line once they spin perfect..then I attach point..according to your pencil line it should be real close to that once the point is tied in..just keep tweaking till the shaft spins true with point attached...then glue it up...let dry then sinew foreshaft...when lineing up point on foreshaft you can visually get it lined up with no lean..your notch should be tight enough to allow you to spin foreshaft too....just get it lined up it will spin right...gut
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here is another batch...
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Those look so great! Dang I need to learn how to knapp like that, those points are stellar!
I just got the DVD in the mail so off to watch! Thanks!
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Hey Gutpile, THANK YOU for the DVD referral...absolutely killer production. I just finished it up and I am still belly laugh so hard at the clip at the end where he runs into the dude with a wheelie-bow all doctored up. MRXDFERBS bow, 12 frequency deer alarm with a vibrator in his pants to wake him up, deer caller strapped to the bottom limb (complete with fart tune) and that self drawing 100lb with 150% let off must be a handy feature not to mention the 1800fps that puppy throws ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Good gawd man, too funny. He may even have talked me into brain tanning my 1st deer this year...we'll see...anyway, wanted to say thanks and much appreciated!
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do you see how simple cane arrow building can be.....no need to make it hard like some people seem to do...brain tanning is some serious work bro.....TRUST ME!!!!...lol...take care...if you need anything let me know...Kirk
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Thanks Lirl, I have a dozen river cane shafts that I received on a trade a while ago so I have the shafts, I have collected 5 turkeys worth of feathers for fletching and have the sinew. I also have some dried hardwood for fore-shafts so the only piece of the puzzle left for me would be the points.
The arrow process looks very do able for me.
I know brain tanning can be a HUGE process, even seeing how he did made it look like work and I know he made the process seem fairly simply. Labor intensive is all I've heard about concerning buckskin. We'll see how much "go juice" I have in me when/if I take a deer this year with my gear.
Thanks again~
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sand them by hand with 80 grit file paper from autobody supply store belt sander digs too deep too fast