Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Bikewer on June 01, 2007, 10:39:11 pm
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Anybody ever make one?
I have always wanted to build one, ever since childhood. Just never got around to it. Now that I'm a big, successful bower (Ok...two.)
I thought I might give it a try.
What are the problems with a short wooden bow? I imagine tillering could be tricky. Also having one let go in close proximity to your face seems slightly hazardous....A good stout backing, perhaps?j
I know, it'd be easier to just buy a commercial steel or aluminum prod, but I like the process, as we artsy types say.
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Not to be rude, ...but do we have to talk crossbows here?
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with Manny Padroni (northsore longbow)on this one...................bob
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Just for the sake of argument, there have been crossbows posted here before, and no one seemed to have a problem with it then.
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I have made several with a simple short bow made from hickory. They are as fun to make and build as any primitive weapon or wood bow. The bow is actually simple because even though it is short it does not have to bend near as far as longbows etc. When I was in the Navy we saw allot of them in the Jungles made form bamboo. If you like wood bows and building them I woud suggest you give one a try. they are fun fun fun. Dont see why anyone would have a problem discussing it here. Hope not anyways. there is allot of info to glean from a discusion about crossbows. One item that has allot to do with bows was a serious issue from crossbows: It was the idea of how far a prod or longbow can bend VS the materials used. this has always been a point of good healthy discussion and that is draw length vs bow length vs stored energy and on and on. Good subject. They are a simple blast.
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I made one about 5 years ago, I used a jatoba board for the prod, about 130# 28" long drawing 14', shot very well, I broke the prod last year and built another from ipe bamboo, about 150#, also shot very well but prod broke after only a few succesful shots. I did have some problems with acuracacy probably due to my design. Steve
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Ive made two so far and both were not as good as I expected. 1. because the highest weight I made them was 65# which is rather low for a crossbow and 2. My prod was not so well designed after seeing some medieval and asian types.
Badger, did you make your tips ultra tiny causing it to break or was it just the poundage?
BTW, If made right these things can be mega powerful!! Have fun.
-Alex
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I've made one as well, or more precise in the process of making one. As far as I'm concerned. If it conforms to the primitive idea then it's ok on this board.
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crossbows have been used for war and for hunting for almost a thousand years or more, so why shouldn't they be discussed? this is a forum for primitive archery, not for wooden bow crafting only. Broaden your horizons people!
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I too don't see why crossbows can't be discussed. Primitive as any other kind of bow, in my mind. As a matter of fact, I'm building an arrow firiing catapulta (scorpio) right now, and will post some shots later when I feel ready.
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Here's one with an oak stock or tiller, simple notchlock(which is my favorite type), and a spring steel prod. The draw weight is ~130-140#.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/jcougar/Crossbow003.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/jcougar/Crossbow002.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/jcougar/Crossbow001.jpg
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I think a lot of folks have a bad taste in their mouths regarding crossbows because of the popularity of the modern crossbows that are being marketed today.
I have no problem with primitive crossbows. This is one I bought at a flee market almost 30 years ago. The wood looks like a mahogany of some sort, the string is twisted plant fibers and the darts(I'm not sure these actually go with this crossbow) are bamboo splits with folded bamboo leaf fletching.The trigger is a simple contraption and as you can see, this is the take-down model. ;D I'm guessing it is from The Philippians. I have never shot this crossbow and never will. It is part of my collection. Pat
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Here's one I made, mainly for when the grandkids visit. I don't know what the draw weight is but it's enough to punch a hole in masonite siding, discovered by my eldest grandson within the first few minutes of use.
The bow is osage. The rest if it is just various scrap wood and metal I had laying around. Since I have a forge, I can make the metal parts without much trouble if I need some particular shape.
The mechanism to hold the string at full cock is a brass cylinder cut out so that drawing the string back rotates the cylinder to the full cock notch where it's caught by the trigger.
I share in the general prejudice against crossbows only as far as the inclusion of them in the regular archery season goes. Other than that, I think they are very interesting, if for no other reason than their prolific historic presence. I'd probably like them anyway since I seem to have a fascination with anything that projects, shoots, throws or casts any kind of projectile at all, from elderberry popguns to naval cannon.
Steve
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Some interesting weapons. Maybe this should be on the warbow thread. ;D Pat how about a couple more pictures of the firing mechanism. Justin
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Here you go, Justin. This trigger is a loose fit, no pivot point. The string goes behind the small block on top...when the trigger is pulled, the string slides off the top of this small block and the dart is gone. Pat
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It still took some studying to figure it out. I think I got it now. I couldn't figure out how pulling the trigger would fire it, if the pull of the string didn't cause it to fire. It actually pushes down inside of the stock and wedges in. When the trigger is pulled the angle on the bottom of the trigger and the taper on the top back forces the trigger up. When it slides up the pull of the string pulls it forward causing it to fire. Does the trigger pull out of the top, or was it inserted from the side and a block glued in after it was fitted? Justin
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There are 4 inscribed lines , 2 on either side of the trigger so I guess that is where the trigger is inserted and the "plug" replaced. It's such a good fit, I can't tell for sure. ??? The trigger is made from one piece of wood and won't come out either direction. Pat
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Thanks for the many replies. I thought I'd inadvertently stepped into a "taboo" subject... ;D
I've always been interested in a variety of primitive weapons; I've built an atlatl, used a sling for many years, thrown knives....Hehe, just a weapons nut.
With this, it's as much about the building as anything else. I don't intend to hunt with it or anything; just sort of fascinated by the mechanism.
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This is not a crossbow, or a bow per se, but still, an arrow firing device I mentioned earlier. It's a scorpio, or scorpian, a small arrow firing catapulta, the design dating back well over 2000 years. They use these in the opening battle scene of Gladiator, and some scorpios are used in the film Kingdom of Heaven.
I expect this machine will produce over 500 pounds, and fire a large javalin, a kind of mutant cross bow bolt. It is powered by torsion springs made of rope, which will be a later step, once I bore 3" holes in the spring frame. How it works is a slider mechanism is pulled back with a rope, pully, and winch system, and locked back with a trigger. Scropians were the smallest seige engines an army would field, especially the Imperial Roman legios.
I expect that machine will be ready for testing in about 6 months. Then, I'll create a more complete posting, and hopefully, have some video of Romans crewing the machine.
I like to think of this as the ultimate war bow, or one interpretation of a bow of war. Except for the brass or steel washers a machinist is going to make, and some iron fittings such as the trigger and some brackets for the base, it is made of ash. Davenport the Pug is there for size comparison.
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Look forward to seeing that Dane ...it sounds like a serious piece of kit. What a cute dog!
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Scropians were the smallest seige engines an army would field, especially the Imperial Roman legios.
The Manuballista is smaller than the Scorpion,its a hand held Ballista dating from around 100AD,i cant get the pics to upload the files are too big but if you Google it you'll see it looks like a Crossbow.
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Look forward to seeing that Dane ...it sounds like a serious piece of kit. What a cute dog!
Simon, thanks! Davenport is a wonderful companion. I've never had a more loyal or affectiont dog.
Dane
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Scropians were the smallest seige engines an army would field, especially the Imperial Roman legios.
The Manuballista is smaller than the Scorpion,its a hand held Ballista dating from around 100AD,i cant get the pics to upload the files are too big but if you Google it you'll see it looks like a Crossbow.
Is that the gastraphetes? It does like a bit like a crossbow, and is called in English belly shooter. That is something I want to also build some day. It uses a composite bow attached to a slider assembly, like later scorpions and ballistas. The shooters weight draws back the string.
Dane
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Loki, I just googled it. Wow, what a neat toy! Looks like one of those is in my future, as well!
Dane
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Nice isnt it?a snipers weapon :D.
Picture of a bloke on this page who keeps his bolts in his hat ;D.
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Aitor/Cheroballistra.htm
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Indeed, and that is a great site.
All these arrow and bolt throwing machines (and bows are machines, too) are great fun. I'm a member of Legio III Cyrenaica, a Roman living history group in Massachusetts. Having on the kit also adds to understanding these kinds of weapons. I was playing with my fustibalus (staff sling) while in kit, and the gladrius bounced all over the place, leaving me to explore how a sword would have been kept in control in that sort of situation. Each question leads to more questions, as always. :)
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I'm a bit of a Roman History buff too ;D,i used to play Spartacus on Hadrians wall when i was a kid and i've been hooked ever since ;D.
I was wondering if you had any info on Cohors I Hamiorum Sagittariorum,the Syrian Bowmen stationed at Magnis fort (Hadrians wall)in the second century? i'm interested in there equipment (Bows).
Thanks
Andy
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One of the finest period crossbow reprodutions I've seen is one Jaro posted a few years ago.Maybe he'll post it again.It was a work of art.
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Pretty cool stuff here,but Pat is right ,crossbows in our bow season left a bad taste,
but I guess it ant much different than modern Muzzle loader,or modern compound
just ant my thing to each his own.I do have one I will post that an uncle brought back from
Nam in 66 and has a Bamboo quiver with 6 bolts fletched with Bamboo leaf it is pretty cool and real primitive,he said they didn't shoot real accurate but they would dip the arrows in human wast and just wanted to hit you somewhere and it would put you out for a long while.I guess all in fair in Love and war. :)
Pappy
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Heres a link to one for some of you auto-loader fans!
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm
I've had an urge to own one since I was a kid. I used to have two but gave one to a buddy so he could shoot chicken house raiding coons after dark without waking up his neighbors.They are cool but like has been said They aren't the same as bows. That being said, I think the home made jobs are cool!
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I'm considering a crossbow, too. I'll be unable to pull a bow 'til Feb. '08 at least due to some shoulder and neck surgeries, and sure don't wanna miss hunting season. I may be too cripped to even make a crossbow. I'm so desparate I might even buy one-what a concept !
In many Texas counties, does can only be taken during bow season. Crossbows aren't allowed without a doctor's letter of upper body disability. I'm more into venison than trophies, so does are fine with me. Also, some of these counties are over-populated with deer, so I don't feel bad about harvesting does. The rest of the general season, crossbows are allowed, just not does. I'd like to have one to harvest feral hogs without scaring the rest of the herd off. They're pretty bad for the habitat, and tasty.
I've checked out some crossbow sites, seems to be a decent crowd. Sure is more appealling than a rifle ! Please post any hints you come accross. They gotta be 150 pounds in Texas for hunting, which seems like a lot for one-handed cocking, and a lot for a wooden prod. Anyone ever make one that heavy ?
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Light leaf springs, such as those from a small trailer will make a nice prod that could easily reach 150#. You could use a windlass or a goat's foot to help cock it.
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Anybody ever make one?
I haven't yet, but I would like to someday.
I think it's a great topic.
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I can appreciate the skill it takes to make one and the fun to be had shooting them but Crossbows are the enemies weapon, and we know what happened to the Genoese at Crecy ;D :D 8).
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I'm a bit of a Roman History buff too ;D,i used to play Spartacus on Hadrians wall when i was a kid and i've been hooked ever since ;D.
I was wondering if you had any info on Cohors I Hamiorum Sagittariorum,the Syrian Bowmen stationed at Magnis fort (Hadrians wall)in the second century? i'm interested in there equipment (Bows).
Thanks
Andy
Andy, sorry, I've been swamped. I'd have to look up that bit of info, and I've been swamped lately. The Romans in general used auxillaries in particular for specialized skills, such as cavalry and archery, slinging too.
Not much in the way of bow artifacts, as you know. Bone plates from the ears of the composite bows, and many many arrow heads. Some nice stone images as well survive to this day (Trajan's Column, etc). The Roman army traveled with a small army of specialists, and they had fletchers, bowyers, bronze casters and smiths, black smiths, etc. I think it is safe to assume that the peoples they enlisted (Germans, Syrians, Egyptians, etc) would have brought their own type of bows along, and the Romans would have adapted those designs, or contracted locals to make and repair them as well.
Say, I had no idea Sparticus hung out in England! :) Must have been such a cool playground. All I had was a ratty old park near me.
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No worries mate,
It was great playing on the wall (I'm Spartacus!!! :D)nowadays they dont let you on it,which is probably for the best ;D.
The Auxillia were the Bowmen (no Roman Citizen would entertain anything but Infantry,much like a Saxon) but part of a Legionaries training including Slinging!(the early years) along with Swimming and reading :D.
I've seen the tombstone of the Bowman from the Hamii cohort,his bow is recurved because like you said,he brought it from his home land (must of been a nice suprise for the Syrians,25yrs service in windy Northumbria :D) but you cant make much out,there is supposed to a example what was found in a desert somewhere but i cant remember the info ???.
Have you seen the Type 18 arrowhead hector cole makes?thats based on a Roman armour piercing head but it looks more like a Manuballista bolt to me.
He allso makes a copy of a design found at the marvelous (sp) Vindolanda fort (hadrians wall),it may of been what the Syrians were shooting :-\.
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3797/romanvindolondapv6.th.gif) (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romanvindolondapv6.gif)
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Roman legionaries were also taught to throw stones at the enemy! If all else fails, bludgening always works, and rocks dont rust.
As excellent as the Romans were as heavy infantry and artillarymen and engineers, not so good at bows and such. And you know as well as I do how good they were at adapting and improving on exisiting things, and adapting foreign troops in special roles was fiscally prudent, and won wars and seiges. I'll bet the Germans they enlisted in various auxillarie cohorts were suprised to be off in Egypt or other arid places too! "Welcome to the Army, maggots, now sweat - only 25 years till you get your discharge. Think of the great tan you will get."
I've seen the same tombstone, with the pointy helmet and the long flowing gown / tunic, yes? There is other iconography of bows and archers, not much, but after 2000 years, pretty nice we have anything left.
I've seen Cole's work, and lust after it. Amazing stuff, and pricy alas.
Dane
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At Vindolanda fort they found mounds of rounded stones piled up,these were thrown at the Pict's trying to get over the outer ditch,its a lot cheaper than arrows and has the same results :D.
They had the finest Bow wood in the world on there doorstep in the Alps,shame they didnt utilise it ???,i'm sure they used the Yew for Siege engines and artillery but i cant find any sources actually saying it >:(.
We all think of the Roman Legionarie as a fine disciplined soldier but the reality of the Principate Citizen soldiers is a bit different,the legionaries were the men who built the great Aqueducts,Walls,City's,they could nock a fort up in under 3 hrs!complete with ditches and stakes!
The men who did the fighting were the Auxilia,at least in Britain and the Dacian wars.
Hey Dane,i think we have hijacked this Crossbow thread :D,sorry..
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Aye, we have!
Yew, I think, would be a lousy seige engine material - far too soft for onagers and such. Ash is the wood of choice for reconstructed machines, including my little Scorpio. Just finished rough cutting the slider and stock parts. Soon, Rome's enemies will fear me! :)]
It is amazing how quickly they would create an entire fort each day. When we had to dig defensive fighting positions, how we would whine - the Romans would have laughed at us modern warriors.
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Oh, Andy, if you get a chance, make yourself a staff sling. The cheapest 15 bucks of fun ever. It is amazingly satisfying to hurl a stone the size of your fist 200 or 300 feet downrange and bury itself in the ground. Imagine an entire cohort of guys doing this at once, and the lowly sling becomes a much more impressive weapon.
But that isn't about crossbows, is it? I'm sorry too. :)
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Lets carry on till we get told off ;D.
Staff slings,i've seen them in use but never had the pleasure of trying one out >:(,i'm a right bosseye with a Sling! i'd probably smash my own teeth out with a staff sling ;D.How about Hannibals Balaeric slingers who could take a Romans eye out just for a laugh ;D,they did that to the defeated at Cannae,they'd wager each other who could hit the Roman in the mouth,Eye,Ear,Groin etc etc......little bugger's were payed in Woman instead of coin!
When i was a nipper we used to make a projectile out of a piece of garden cane with playing cards cut into it for fletches and a tack or small nail for a head.You wrapped some string or twine around the bottom (what would be the nock end on a arrow) and keeping hold of the end of the string hurl it with all your might into the air,they went pretty far too,hours of fun :D.
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Did you know That Lucius Cornelius Sulla is presumable the 1st inventor of trench?
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Nope didnt know that ;D
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I didnt know that either. The only thing I recall from my college archeology class (to escape anthro 101, and dont even get me started on garbology expeditions we were forced to go on) is that the most durable thing mankind has invented, and really never goes away, is the hole in the ground. Trenches must also qualify? :)
Yeah, let's get yelled at, Loki.
When I was a kid, I used to make these stupid but fun paper match rockets. You put a pin against the side of a paper match, so the tip of the pin is against the head of the match. You wrap it tightly in foil about half way down the match, and pull out the pin, which makes nice little vent from the head to where the foil ends. Your launch gantry is a paper clip bend at an angle, and you heat up the now deadly rocket with another light match. When the foil wrapped match ignites, the jetting gas shoots the rocket up about 5 feet. Mom hated them :)
Hard to smash your own teeth, and they are great as you can beat things up with the stick in nothing else. And that betting sounds like a good deal of fun. I'd try for the pale skinned redheaded Celtic wench, if you please.
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In starting to assemble materials, I'm having the greatest problem finding something to make the "nut" (the bit that holds the bolt and string at full-cock).
Most sources say aluminum or delrin plastic rod stock at about 1 1/2" diameter. You'd think in a big city like St. Louis this would not be too hard to find....All the plastics suppliers that carry Delrin are happy to sell me a minimum of 10 feet or so.... I need inches.
I suppose it might be easier to find aluminum, we have a number of scrap and recycling centers here.
There is one crossbow source I found that will sell appropriate-sized chunks of ABS plastic rod stock for a mere four bucks; that might be the way to go.
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http://198.144.2.125/Crossbows/crossbows.htm
On this webpage, the guy takes you through the entire process of building a crossbow. I have high speed, and it takes forever to open, but is worth it. He does fantastic work, and his pieces look totally fun.
Dane
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On the one I am working on I wanted to keep as primitive as possible so I started out using a piece of Osage to hold the string. It blew as soon as I cocked it. I then tried Horn. It lasted 2 shots then blew so now I am working on one made of Copper. It should hold
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Interesting stuff! :)
Hey Marc, How heavy is the prod? I remember Jaro talking about Antler roller nuts used around 12th century or something. Weird how the horn didn't hold up, too thin maybe? Well that copper should hold up. Please post pics when its done. ;D
-Alex
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Actually Anna Komnena, describing "Franks" - that is Normans described roller nut crossbow in the time of first crusade.
Marc, can you post a picture, I have made few, perhaps I ll know where is problem.
We now think that they used moose antler roller nut and I have checked and there was still moose in my country at 15. century. They did also imported raw stuff from scandinavia. There are examples of roller nuts made from thinner pieces of antler, riveted together, but I think this was only a emergency solution and all I know are from time when crossbow ceased to be military weapon.
This is what I made, but its the type with a notch lock.
(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/kusehawk.jpg)
Jaro
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Hi Everyone~ I was wondering if someone could help me identify the following. All I know is that my Grandfather received it as a gift from some tribe when serving in the military. (Air-force). When he died in 1977, I remember a man storming into my Grandmother's house demanding to buy it. She said no. Not that she knew anything about it .. just that her husband hadn't even been buried yet! And then it got passed down to me. I would appreciate any expert council.
See photos at: http://s1303.beta.photobucket.com/user/zellasbar/media/IMG_9412.jpg.html
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Blow gun?