Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: markinengland on May 28, 2007, 05:13:35 am
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At Batsford we had some interesting talk about bow strings in relation to warbows. I wonder what your thoughts are to the following rambling thoughts?
It is understandable that someone who has invested a lot of money in buying a warbow or someone who may have invested a lot of time into making one will err on the safety side when making up a bow string. Bowyers may well advise on the side of safety for the sake of their reputations and insurance. No one wants a broken string and a broken bow and when faced with a monster bow of 100lb, 150lb and over a mega strong string suddenly seems like a good idea!
An interesting question would be what basic string type and mass/strength is the best compromise between performance and durability?
Some at Batsford thought that string mass had little influence on a heavy bow, the limiting factors being limb speed and limb mass, arrow mass etc. Basically along the lines of what works on normal bows doesn't apply to warbows.
Some build very strong strings, with 22 or so strands of Fastflight, feeling that this maybe is safer and that the stronger string may give a better push to the arrow.
All this has got me thinking. I wondered if anyone has done tests, looking at how the string (usually overlooked!) affects range with warbows and military and flight arrows?
So much of what we think is fact in archery isn't actually fact! Not long ago the perceived wisdom was that you couldn't use fastflight with wooden bows, now this is almost the norm. What one person is told just can't be done, someone else is doing, not having heard this FACT! A lot of what we hear is plain bulls--t or like 95%statistics is made up on the spur of the moment ;D
So far I have noticed that the "laws" of physics are pretty fair, and generally apply to everyone. You don't live to long if you get to thinking you're immune to Newtons principles of equal and opposite reactions (though many pedestrians in London appear to be testing this!). It appears sensible to me that the basic physics that works for flight archery also will work for scaled up warbows.
Flight archery is more extreme, the Formula 1 racing equivalent, where performance at the expense of durability is worth the risk, but surely the same basic principles apply? As I understand it the distance you can get with ANY bow is limited by the initial speed you can give an arrow. This applies to both heavy military arrows or lighter flight arrows. In a nutshell distance is limited by arrow speed. Other factors in the arrow itself will decide how far that arrow goes, but if it ain't going fast it ain't going far!
What limits speed?
1) Bow speed. Arrow speed increases with bow limb speed or really bow tip speed. Really the power of the bow doesn't matter, just the speed. A really fast low draw weight bow will shoot a light optimal efficiency arrow further than a slower higher draw weight bow shooting a heavier optimal efficiency arrow. So a fast bow is a good idea.
2) The speed with which the limb tips move is transfered to the string. The string is a critical element that is usually ignored. While people may talk about their bows and envy each others arrows, we almost never talk about strings! It seems obvious that a lighter string will better transfer this speed. A string with infinitely low mass would take no energy out of the limbs, and a string with infinitely high mass would take all the energy out of the limbs. With an infinatly heavy string the bow limbs wouldn't be able to move at all! Extreme but perhaps shows that string mass must have an effect. So a string as light as possible is good for distance.
3) A low stretch string will better transfer the force to the arrow, give it that last final whip effect as the limbs slam forward. A stretchy string will instead itself absorb the energy of the bow. With an infinately stretchy string the arrow wouldn't leave the bow as none of that energy would transfer! So a string that stretches as little as possible on the shot is a good idea.
That is about it as far as I can see. Obviously there are other factors, like technique in the loose, draw length etc. The arrow itself is a huge factor. An arrow that is optimal weight is good. There is a limit with each bow at which there is no point in reducing arrow weight any further. The arrow will go no further and more shock will be taken by the bow and string leading to possible failure. Other factors like how well matched the arrow is to the bow, drag due to shape and fletching, balance point will have an influence on how well this energy is used after the arrow leave the bow.
What I think is generally overlooked is the string.
I think a string that is made light and not too stretchy but within acceptable limits of durability would help many people get quite a lot more distance.
Dacron is in my opinion terrible stuff. It stretches too much and is quite weak with a breaking strain of around 35lbs per strand. You have to strain too much to get the string on the bow, only to watch it strtetch like toffee a good 4 inches on the bow and god knows how much on the a shot
Fastflight and other equivalents have very little stretch and very high strand strength. Fastflight has a strand strength of 100lbs. 450 plus has a strand strength of 155lbs! Using the four times bow strength rule generally seen as "safe" a 35lb bow could use just one strand of 450 plus! Obviously it is very easy to overbuild a bow string using these materials.
A 22 strand fastflight string has a breaking strain in excess of 2200lbs! Using the 4 times bow strength guide this would be OK for a bow of 550lbs! It is possible that such a string could break a bow because it is simply too strong, when it was used in the first place to try to stop the bow breaking due to string breakage!
A 120lb bow could have a string with 5 strand of fastflight, giving a breaking strain of 500lb which is actually over strong! If this makes you wince too much, why not double up and have a 10 strand string over twice as strong as it really needs to be. Surely this would be a good enough safety margin for a seasons shooting?
Personally I like 450 plus, this has a strand strength of 155lbs per strand. A six strand string does look skinny, but at 930lbs breaking strain is really very strong, strong enough for a 265lb bow! As I have yet to pull such a monster bow I reckon it is more that strong enough for my bows until I do.
A double loop string made to match the bow strength (4 times bow strength and no more) may gve good flight distances and do so quite safely. Make a new one every six months or so and you should have no problems.
A somewhat overbuilt flemish twist string (8 times bow strength) may compensate for being too strong by the extra stretch the flemsih construction gives and again would be quite safe and being modestly overbuilt should last a long time. It is easy to make a new one and adjust brace height.
I think we are used to seeing bow strings of a certain diameter, these fit the nocks on our arrows and "feel" right. Much of this comes from target archery for whoom these plastic nocks are made, for whoom bow shock is not a problem, who want the stablity of a massive string, and durability for hundreds or thousands of repetitive shots before they go out and buy another string because they want it to match their fletchings! I think the truth is that most wooden bows and most warbows bows have got massively overbuilt strings and may shoot further and safer if we looked at it again.
Mark in England
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Mark with my war bow of 148# 22 strands of fast flight. On my fiber glass bow they have 26 to 30 strands of fast flight. marlon
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Marlon,
It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it would make if you cut thr strand numbers down.
A 30 strand string would be quite safe on a 750lb bow! 12 strands would be quite safe on a 300lb bow.
It would be interesting if you shot a dozen arrows out of one of your fibreglass bows with 30 strand string and wrote down the average distance then in the same weather conditions shot the same arrows on the same bow with a 12 strand string. This would still be a safe string but I bet it would increase your distance quite a lot.
I may try this on one of my bows. I have a low weight Slazenger bow with quite a heavy overbuilt string. I could shoot a few arrows. mark the positions then shoot the same arrows out of the bow with a silly one strand string and see what difference I get.
Mark in England
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Very good points Mark. I have often wondered why the strings contain so many strands if the rule is 4 or 5 times the weight of the bow.
When I made my very first bow which was of 55 lbs draw weight, I used a single strand of nylon string from my local DIY shop - it was very thin stuff (about twice the diameter of Dacron B-50) and it didn't break during tillering or shooting. I can't say it worked well as it was very stretchy and very painful on the fingers, but it illustrates the point that it's not necessary to have such heavy strings.
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Ah, well what you want then is an endless loop buckytube/titanium nanofibre - strong enough to move the moon and invisible without a microscope :D See the fingers and ears fly off!
Seriously though - a high tensile strength no stretch string would produce a hell of a shock for the bow wouldn't it? Especially if the tips have been slimmed down to the nth degree to make them light and fast?
I guess you can't blame modern bowyers though. Even a 95% confidence would lead to too many string breakages - and maybe bow breakages - for a guy making a living out of the business, hence the big strings. I certainly won't be attaching anything I have doubts about to a yew bow which cost a big fortoona to buy, or indeed serious time and effort to build ;)
My ash bow, on the other hand is another story - I think it might well survive a broken string and in any case, I have promised to test it to destruction. What I'd really be interested in is one of these linen strings which are supposed to be OK in a 100lb bow. OK, my horrid, stacking, rough looking, string following ash bow may not stress the string like a yew or laminate would - but anyone know a good source?
C
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SimonUK,
In the Bowyers Bible they give the four times rule and also one in which you measure the poundage at 10 inches and mulitply by fifteen or maybe at 15 inches and multiply by ten. The important thing is that these are all SAFE guidelines for strings but give a durable string with much fewer strands than is normal practice.
ChrisD,
Lots of people are using high tensile low stretch strings. Fastflight is one of these and linen is another. Linen is very low in stretch compaired to linen and behaves on the bow much like fastlfight, excpet it weighs more and won't last as long. Old archery books talk about linen strings being made with enough strands to be four times bow strength. I think there is as much chance of a string breaking a bow because it is too strong as too weak, breaking and hence breaking the bow. A longbow of say 50lbs with a 16 strand fastflight string is way over-stringed! 16 strands would do a 400lb bow! Even 16 strand of decron is good for a 140lb bow even if stretched like anything.
I got a variety of linen string materials from a local ships chandlery here in Gravesend by the Thames. A spool of Barbour 6 ply cord waxed or unwaxed costs about £15. I found that my first linen string used on a 40lb primitive bow broke on the knot end I made a new string with extra threads at each end and it has lasted many months. I have since got some Barbour linen machine thread that looks very promising. At about £35 for a large spool it had better be!
Personally, for a heavier bow and one of any great value I would use a slender but maybe still double the needed number of strands flemish twist string, using a modern string material. I like 450plus as you can get it in small spools that don't cost the earth. I've not had a string break of bow break using this and I have pushed the limits as far as I dare.
Mark
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Mark
Thanks for the tips on sources and types of linen. I guess I've been putting off the string making jig for long enough and should get on with it. At least its an activity that needn't involve being banished to the garage because of noise, bad smell and general dust production that goes with bow building.
I'll give it a go.
C
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Chris,
For a flemish twist string you don't need a jig.
Mark
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Oh.
Showing my complete ignorance of string making there ???- I'll look it up and get on with it - but it'll still be a while. Its taken since our last conversation on
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Oh.
Showing my complete ignorance of string making there ???- I'll look it up and get on with it - but it'll still be a while. Its taken since our last conversation on the NFAS site just to make a couple of bows that didn't turn into firewood. I had a couple of great barbecues on the back of last years efforts and I'm now getting somewhere on that front - I've largely ignored arrows and strings for the present simply because of lack of time.
Question for you. I went to timberline and found them very helpful as you said, and in a rush of blood to the head, I bought a great big chunk of Pau Amorello (about 80x 10 x 4). I was thinking about taking it to a sawmill and taking out a load of belly wood from it in order to make backed bows but then I heard that its really better as a core wood - and in any case got too busy making hickory/lemonwood bows because I found them an easier(not to mention cheaper) learning experience.
The questions I have are
1) Do I need to pay strict attention to the grain or can I just take it out along the length and not worry too much where the growth rings are.
2) What do you reckon on it as a belly wood?
Sorry for going off thread, but I'd be grateful for your view.
Chris
PS Good luck with the 'primitives'
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If you had a barbeque made out of yew, would you get poisoned?
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Not healthiest roast for sure.
I used pau amarello for belly on longbows and I think its better than most wood. Makes very crisp feeling in the bow and its not as heavy in mass as Ipe, it was my first impression when I finished the bow "Ohh its so light in hand". Might be somehow critical to tiler, but I liked it lot more than half dozen of other woods...
I was told once, by about as most experienced person in buissness that true degame, which comes from Cuba and its impossible to get now for 40 years is much denser and better wood than lemonwood from south america even if botanically the same. But I have no chance to try. Lemonwood is not imported here and I have all the Ipe to play with...
J.
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Thank you for that Jaro. I'll give it a go as a belly wood then and back it with hickory.
Can I ask you about something more 'on thread'.
JD mentioned that you'd been using linen strings on heavy bows. Can you tell me about them please? Are they flemish or reverse twist or.... what?
I have a biggish ash bow which I'm keen to try this on.
C
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Hi Guys, does fastflight make good flemish twist strings as opposed to endless loop strings? I have only ever used B50 thus far. Since fastflight is presumably a far denser and smoother finished thread, does it grip as well in twisted cords? When using it with flemish loops do you have to allow a longer interweaving section to ensure security? Finally, do you have wax each thread as you assemble the string, as with B50, or is fastflight better assembled dry ?
Sorry for all the questions, but I have been trying some changes with B50, and all seems well so far. I would like to try fastflight, or maybe dyneema etc in the coming months. I only shoot field and occasional roving, and certainly not warbows (I'm a weed), but a little extra speed is never a bad thing ;D
//Bob in Surrey, UK.
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Bob,
I have used 450 plus rather than fastflight but have had nor problems with this modern material. I much prefer it to dacron as it doesn't stretch so much. This makes the bow eaiser to string, the brace heights stays where you put it and the string is perhaps cheaper to make.
The 450 plus grips fine (when i remember to twist it the right way!). I have used slightly longer twisted sections, some shorter and had no problem. By the way, you are no weed. I'd hate to have weeds like you in my garden!
Chris,
A flemish twist string can easily be made in the hand with no jig at all. i can't understand why everyone talks about jigs for such simple strings!
Mark in England
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I would say fastflight is way too slippery. At least for using timber-hitches on 50#+ bows. They slip like mad, and thus lowering the braceheight.
By the way, I'll have to make myself a two-ply FF string for my flightbow after reading this ;) That should reduce string-drag "a little" ;D
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I use a bowline knot as I find a timber hitch 'creeps' or slips outright.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowline
I'll follow this tread with interest, as Mark's maths seems to add up. I'll let somebody else try it first ;). As a historical note, 'stretchy' silk was considered the best for flight shooting in Tudor times. Whether this was due to a lighter strings being possible or the inherent stretch I could not say. If a bow was set in a braced position and fitted with a bungee cord and then shot the elasticity would still propel the arrow. Slightly fatuous, I know, but could the 'give' add something to the cast. I know this flies in the face of contemporary received wisdom, and I dislike Dacron for heavy draw-weight bows as well.
Jeremy
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Jeremy,
I've posted this same basic thread on a flight bow forum frequented by many record holding archers. They disagree as much or more than we do on strings, the important or not of stretch etc! Some record breaking shots have been made with dacron strings!
The consensus of opinion is that what works works even if we argue about why, and that a lot of BS is talked and believed and should be tested. What works for one bow type may not work for another, that even on the same bow type it makes a difference what the draw weight is, what the tiller is and what the arrow is. It seems that for a given heavy warbow the string that works best for a heavy military arrow may not work as well as a lighter string with a lighter arrow (but then again it may!). The only way to tell for sure is to try it.
I used to use bowline knots. The only trouble is that they hold like anything and are very hard to undo. When I tie a bowyers knot now I make sure that the string is well waxed. It is of course important that the knot is tied correctly and that when you loop the tail back round you do it the right way. I loop the tail round some 5 or more time so it goes all the way round the loop and then make sure the tail is tucked back under to lay under the knot. Once bedded in this seems to weld itself into one and won't slip. Occassionally a knot will when first tied so I just undo it and tie it again, making sure that all is tighter and done properly and then it seems OK.
I think I owe you a pint by the way. If my slightly bleery memory is correct I knocked one out of your hand while waving my hands around while we chatted about this subject! I hope you had a good time at the Batsford field shoot. I chickened out!
Kviljo,
I have a little bamboo bow with a two strand string. The high note it make when plucked makes you wince but it hasn't broken! The bow is only 20 inches long, must pull something silly like 100lbs at 6 inches and the string kills your fingers but it shot an arrow 100 yards.
Mark
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The strings chapter in the TBB was quite an eye opener to me, as it seems to have been many others. Perhaps the large number of strands recommended by most bowyers I have met reflects the desire to have a lot of safety built into the string. In the past couple of years (as long as I've been doing this stuff !) I've been fortunate to be able to ask Chris Boyton, Hilary Greenland, and Carol Edwards about this personally, and I have read the same recommendations in Pip Bickerstaffe's book too. The same answer usually comes back - a 12 strand generic string for my usual draw weight bow - 50 - 60 lb at 28". I have been trying a 9 strand B50 string, and it seems fine (but see loop reinforcement below), with 3 skeins of 3 strands, on both my primitive Stellmoor style ash bow, and on my other half's wonky ash bow. I prefer 3 skeins because it seems to make a more rounded section string, compared to 2 skeins. I am keeping a close eye on my other half's bow, because it has such tiny nocks that i couldn't put in many extra stands for the loops as I would like. Even so, both strings have been good, with excellent cast, and seem durable enough so far.....
One more question about FF. Seems that most people in this discussion are only talking about single ended flemish twist strings. Any particular reason for this, apart from a greater brace height adjustability? If a double looped flemish twist string is made from FF (and I have done them in B50), does the panel think that the twists themselves will actually provide a bow's nocks with a little shock absoption? That is, will a double ended string afford the bow nocks a little extra protection from the ultimate shock of an FF string slamming home?
Also, when I make strings I tend to increase the number of plies at the loops by 50-100% by adding 9 inch strands of the string material waxed and twisted into the main cordage. I thought that this was a default position, as taught to me by Chris Boyton and Carol Edwards. Does everyone do this, especially with warbows, as surely the greater bearing area of the thicker loop would go a long way to improving reliability?
//Bob
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Bob,
As far as anyone can tell the habit of using too many strands seems to have developed historically. Linen strings needed to be failry fat to be strong enough. Arrow nocks were cut to suit this and we became used to this. When Dacron came in at 35lbs per strand about the time fibreglass bows did 16 strands or so of dacron was overbuilt for a normal bow (about right for a 140lb bow) but it looked about the right size and fitted the nocks we were used to. Recurve bows need stronger strings to a straight bow anyway. Now that fasflight does 100lb per strand and 450 plus does 150lb per strand a string that looks the right size and fits the arrow knock is stupid overbuilt! A nine strand dacron string should be safe for a 75 lb bow.
You can still put extra strands in a smal loop on a small bow knock. This is a little more difficult on the other end if you have a bowyers knot.
I don't make double ended flemish strings because I can't get the length right! I could could, I would! As far as I know or have heard there is no real difference with a twisted in loop or knot re safety. The twists in the string itself rather than the loops give the little bit of stretch and shock safety. The bow string could have two bowyers knots and work fine.
Yes, I do beef up the ends of the bow string, with the loop and the knot. A really skinny string needs this I think to give increaed wear resistance as well as to avoid any cutting in.
Mark
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I think I owe you a pint by the way. If my slightly bleery memory is correct I knocked one out of your hand while waving my hands around while we chatted about this subject! I hope you had a good time at the Batsford field shoot. I chickened out!
Hello Mark,
Don't worry, any beer stains were washed out during the field shoot :D. I must give the timber hitch another go.
Cheers,
Jeremy
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Interesting thread,
I was forced into using FF-Plus on my 125# warbow due to the stretch on D50. It is quite difficult to string a 100# plus bow when the string stretches so much.
It seems to me that FF is the material of choice (when quality linen cannot be sourced) because it has about the same stretch as linen.
Weight of the string does not make bugger all difference when you are loosing a 1000 plus gn arrow. (my opinion)
Just for interest I use the 10 times at 15" calculation (tested it on the "Old Oak 110#er" first tho!) FF-Plus weighed in at 53# per strand, 10 strands = 530#, about right. I added a few more totalling 12 strands (yew is very expensive in Aussie). This works just fine.
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I used D-75 for the 2 heavy ELB flight bows I built Marlon last year and I think I used 12 strands on the BBB. It pulled about 170# and the 12 strands worked just fine
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Garry,
From what I have read FF is meant to have about 100lbs per strand. Why 53? Is this tested breaking strength?
I copy this from a flight forum where I asked this same basic question. These guys are good so know whatthey are talking about from formulas through to actually setting records!
"At around 200 fps, the energy lost to the string is about equal to as much as 45% of the string weight getting shot with the arrow. If your string has a mass of 100 grains, and arrow has a mass of 500 grains, then the bow will feel like it's shooting a total of about 545 grains. At 200 fps, 45 grains is equal to about 4 ft-lb which is pretty significant. The 500 grain arrow traveling 200 fps has about 44.5 ft-lb of kinetic energy so right away, nearly 10% just went to propelling the string. Of course, heavy serving makes it worse since it is moving at the same speed as the arrow."
From my understand an efficient heavy warbow is a fast bow. It needs to be to get the distances being acheived. Though the arrow being shot is heavy at double 500 grains or more, then the string is also probably at least double in mass and things may equal out. This still points to the basic idea that reducing string mass within sensble limits will no doubt increase arrow speed and distance.
I wonder what difference you would notice between a 10 strand string and 20 strands?
Mark
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I've been reading this with great interest. A couple things I'm wondering:
Not only is FF super strong, durable, and less streachy, it's lighter. This allows for lighter, faster strings of the same size as Dacron. Take into consideration that a 16-strand FF string will be much smaller than it's B-50 counterpart and you've gained significant performance advantages by only changing the material. Beyond this point, how much can you gain I wonder? If it's only a difference of 20 grains or so, I think I'd rather use a normal-sized string with heavy bow. There are practical limits to these kinds of things. Beyond pure fligh shooting, isn't there an obvious impracticality to such skinny strings (not fitting nocks, cutting the fingers, etc.)?
I'll have to go weigh the FF string on my warbow. Great thread.
Another thing, the published strength of currently-availible linen thread is adequate to build a 1/8" safe string for about a 150# warbow--using the draweight at ten inches (or fifteen, I can't remember either) formula. I haven't tested this yet, but I don't see what the big deal is with everyone (perhaps Pip started this theory?) saying it's impossible. I think you could go do it right now with linen bought off the internet. Before long I'll put my money where my mouth is.
J. D. Duff
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Well, the very best of luck to you on that one! I'll be really really interested to hear how you get on.
C
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Chris,
I believe Howard Hill used a linen string on his 170# osage flight bow. I don't know how thick it was but it set a world flight record so it seems it would have to have been reasonably light. It's ALL speculation and unscientific until you put the 1/8" linen string on a bow of 'X' weight to prove that it can be done.
Question: If I built a 150# bow and shot it a hundred times in a row with a linen string that fits into a 1/8" nock--would Pip pull his string theory out of his second edition? Would you reconsider your opinion? Would it change anything? Would anyone say, 'I was wrong, you were right'? ( :) this is a good-natured ribbing).
J. D. Duff
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JD
Good natured ribbing aside ;), I certainly would say 'I was wrong' and and I would consider a big proportion of what I had previously thought keel hauled and requiring reconsideration. I would have said 'I'll eat my underpants' - but this is an online post and someone one day might hold me to it.
I can't speak for Pip - but if you're right, then the replica warbow using public (and I realise they'd probably all fit in a winnebago if stacked properly) would start using them - its a population which likes tradition after all.
C
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Mark,
From what I am gathering is that there must be more than one type of FF availiable. I can only get "Fast Flight Plus" here in Canberra Australia. I measured single strands, 10 times, and every time it came out at between 50 and 55# averaging 53#. The FF+ that I used is supposed to be 50# per strand, but it is very thin!
I used 4 strands on one of my 50# and it is like using spider web for a string. Took a bit to trust the stuff.
I agree with your statements, however I am not into flight just getting a heavy arrow to go 240 yards and yes a 125# yew bow is fast! (and fun)
I tell you what I will do is make a 10 strand string and a 20 strand string and tell you the difference (on my Old Oak 110#er, not my good yew tho) but I am thinking that due to FF being so light anyway that it will make very little difference.
Cheers
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Sheesh, we use linen, my friend Iktomi has osage bow of 116# and uses linen...its no big deal. Anyway, I found out there are some people growing hemp and doing research on it in czech, I have contacted them, hopefully I ll be able to get some raw material or to have a hemp custom grown tended to specified requirements.
Rob, my shooting buddy (Rhunter on PP) just made himself a rather sharp Ipe/hickory bow 105#/31´´ and hes got linen string on it as well, I m having linen on that 90# yew bow now, no problems so far. He did some research on the material in lab where he is working, he found basically its about the asme in strenght as Dacron per thread, but it does not have the stretch. He did hovever tested dry fibre, not the one reinforced with hide glue as old bowstrings were made.
This is czech unbleached linnen, which is (and historically was) too often exported to britain and sold as Irish harbour.
I suspect the glue is the important additive to make the strings slightly stronger than now.
We use 18 strands for 90#, 21 strands for 105#, but again this is just a normal string without hide glue. They look rather fluffy, but they are not exceptionally thick once you string the bow. 21 strands would be probably alright even for 120# and there is no problem with a reasnoable nock size on 3/8´´ arrows.
I will try hide glue reinforced strings in close future, I expect to have at least 25 percent of gain in strenght.
When these fail, its usually when they get dry. Its basically wood and in this fibrous form it dries too quickly and too much, so its reasonable to moisterise these strings prior shooting.
Jaro
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I've never heard of the hide glue additive. What's the source on that?
J. D.
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Chris Boyton wrote me that while ago. Such strings are more like wire, than anything else, they can only be bend in larger diameter curves. Also he wrote me that prior WW2 they used to shelac these strings so they be nice shiney and slick. I think that suchhide glue, used instead of wax must be very thin.
Anyway, wheels of my revenge are turning...oh what I m saying ;D I went into contact with Eco - center here in close vicinity, for a string making course and a bow for primitive skill display, they are going to supply me with raw hemp fibres over 2 meters long, worked by hand from plant, means without microfractures.
They also gave me a contact to Romenian factory, which works hemp in non cut form, means long fibres also over 2 meters long and I even found a tent maker here who buys a tent cloth from them regluary. He goes there at june 20th so I might be able to buy some raw fibre good for strings via him.
I m thinking about 10 pounds of raw fibre, that will set me for some experimentation.
They have agricultural advisor who indeed confirmed that hemp can be sown thick, with plants nearby to each other so its strives for light and grows very tall. They use double of ammount of seed per hectar for this method.
Stand by for updates.
Jaro
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Standing by with great interest.
If the linen/hemp strings were treated with hide glue, that would explain why the archers at Crecy unstrung their bows in the rain wouldn't it?
J. D. Duff
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J.D. it becomes somehow sticky in water, but I tried to unglue some things I glued on musical instrument with hide glue and there was lots of vapour needed and in end I broke the wood off rather than having the joint coming loose.But I m not expert in these strings and save cooking glue I dont use it nearly as often.
With strings - they dont work when overdry, they wont work when soaked completelly either, but if the hide glue works instead of wax as we use it, would there be much diference if it just be sticky as hell?
(But no doubt the archers knew rain was not good for bows nor strings)
Jaro
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starch is used to glaze thread has anyone used it on a bow string
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Jaro,
Mark Stretton told me that it makes a difference if the fibres are from the male or female hemp plant. He said that one is much stronger than the other. I am afraid I canot remember which one though. I hope he wasn't pulling my leg!
Mark in England
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I might be able to try. I will know in august, when I get the material. Since they are going to process it for me by hand anyway it should be easy to separate the material from each other...
Jaro
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Jaro,
Mark Stretton told me that it makes a difference if the fibres are from the male or female hemp plant. He said that one is much stronger than the other. I am afraid I canot remember which one though. I hope he wasn't pulling my leg!
Mark in England
Mark, I think it's femail.
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J.D. it becomes somehow sticky in water, but I tried to unglue some things I glued on musical instrument with hide glue and there was lots of vapour needed and in end I broke the wood off rather than having the joint coming loose.But I m not expert in these strings and save cooking glue I dont use it nearly as often.
With strings - they dont work when overdry, they wont work when soaked completelly either, but if the hide glue works instead of wax as we use it, would there be much diference if it just be sticky as hell?
(But no doubt the archers knew rain was not good for bows nor strings)
Jaro
Off thread, but if you need to unstick the hide glue in a musical instrument, you insert a hot knife into the joint.
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Thicker strings may reduce cast, but are more comfortable to shoot and usually alot quieter...
"it's an ill string that breaketh a good bow"....
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I had a spell of messing with flight arrows a good while back and got down from 12 strands of fastflight to only 4 strands in the quest for a few more yards.
I got the distance alright, but the longbow started sounding more like a violin than a cello when the string was plucked.
The main thing I learnt is that the best reason for a finger shooter settling on a number of threads in string is to make it durable and comfortable to shoot without sacrificing cast un-necessarily.
Believe me, if you think your bow string is hard on the fingers, just try 4 strands of fast flight....
In a warbow, reliability and the ability to shoot rapidly but with some control over a period of time would seem to me to dictate string thickness, rather than other factors.
BTW I have a small bow with it's original string, probably somewhat dessicated by know after a century or so. It has the gluey finish which being dry tends to crack and the string having been too dry for too long is no longer reliable.
I also have some Roumanian garden string which sounds very like the long fibre that Jaro mentions. I have often thought that one of the issues with modern linen is that the fibres are too short.
Rod.