Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: HatchA on February 11, 2011, 07:33:23 am
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Hi fellas. I'd appreciate any advice or information you could give me on this one...
As some/most of you know, I'm in Ireland and, though we have gun hunting, at the moment the use of bows isn't governed/legislated. I'm not entirely sure whether that makes it illegal but I'm not going to give the cause a bad name by finding out the hard way.
OK... what am I looking for?
To be honest - I don't honestly know!! I would like to go to "The Powers That Be" with a proposition to legalise bowhunting in Ireland but I don't want to walk in off the street unprepared. I suppose I'm looking for information on how it became legalised in other countries. I think I'm right in saying Hill and Bear were instrumental in championing this for the U.S? Rather than looking for "the life and times of..." etc., I'm more interested in what the used to prove that bows could be used to successfully hunt animals, as an alternative to firearms.
I understand that there's a heritage of using bows for hunting in the U.S. that Ireland doesn't seem to have - or at least, doesn't cherish and pass on to it's generations of children. In this, I'm starting on a back-foot. I can foresee a LOT of simple ignorance facing me in this quest - I'd like to be able to put down as much clear, concise, recorded and documented PROOF that bowhunting is perfectly acceptable as a means to hunt game.
We have a general election coming up in two weeks and the Green party will be leaving their comfy seats of office, after introducing a legacy of carbon taxes, bans on hunting stags (for whatever reason I don't know - probably a misguided approach at stopping the reduction of the deer population) and other non-sensical, tree-hugging policies that do bugger all to make any REAL difference in the long run.
I think now is a good time to be asking future government members what they're take on bowhunting is.
Someone suggested to me that I contact a local gun club and talk with them regarding the legalities of hunting etc. Might be a good place to start??
Deer hunting in Ireland is quite different to the U.S. in that we have seasons for specific types (breed/sex etc) but there doesn't seem to be any limit to the amount of these that you can bag, unlike the tag system. Here's the page with all the info, for those interested... ..w.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/recreational_activities_in_ireland/sport_and_leisure/deer_licences.html
On closer inspection of the rules, they make mention of "You will be prosecuted for hunting deer with an inappropriate firearm or by any other means." so I guess it's going to be an uphill battle...
Any and all advice, info, help with this would be very much appreciated guys.
Thanks, Steve.
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Good luck in your quest, not sure this will help, but i found it an interesting read. http://www.stickbow.com/stickbow/history/roycase.HTM
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Just a thought..When we want to change a season or add something to a season.It helps when going to the govt to have support behind you,i.e.fish and game assoc. pheasents forever, elk foundation. Anybody that may be involved in your cause.The first question the govt asks is "How many people?". Doesn't hurt to poke around to see the hoops you will jump through.It may take years.But keep constant pressure on them.They like it when people give up after a year or so.Walk softly and carry a big stick.
Thanks Leroy
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Stoker gave good advice. It's going to be an uphill battle for sure but you have to start somewhere. I think the idea that hunting with a bow is somehow cruel and unnecessarily painful to the animal is a mindset that needs to be changed. Talk about how you dont really feel the pain from a sharp razor cut. Arrows kill quickly by making a fast wide incision and sometimes a deer will return to feeding until it falls over from blood loss, unaware of it's fatal injury. Compare this to the long painful way a deer dies from being ripped apart by natural predators or by a bullet that misses the mark and blows off a leg. I have personally seen deer with a broadhead inside them from a misplaced shot by someone years prior. The wound was completely healed and the tissue grown around the broadhead. Often if a deer is not hit in the vitals it will simply recover. Animals that are butchered in the slaughter house are not always treated the most humane. Ask them if they had their choice would they rather be an animal raised to be butchered in a slaughter house or take there chances as a free creature in the wild with a few bow hunters, able to use their instincts to avoid being shot.
I would never suggest this in a place where bow hunting is legal but as a start you could suggest a shooting test to get a license. Like being able to hit the vitals at 15 yards or something.
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Hatch, contact some of the German guys. They are going through the same thing but have more organization. Frank(medicinewheel) or Uwe might be able to give you some ideas.
Good luck with your endevor. I think education is the key. Most folks have no idea the effectiveness of a hunting bow and arrow.
A lot more humane kill than a fire arm. IMO
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Thanks for the input guys.
Stoker - Just after I posted this topic I emailed the chairman of the Irish Deer Society enquiring about what kind of recommendations they'd look for in the equipment etc. No reply yet so I'll give him a couple more days before I start nagging again :)
Jesse - excellent comments! Thank you!! Here (as in the States, I'm sure) we have a firearms test which hunters have to pass before they get granted a deer license. I'd have absolutely no problem whatsoever about the same for a bow. I'd actually press for one to be brought in - help to sort out the competent from the dangerous.
Pat - I'll get right on that!! Thanks. If the Germans are successful in their efforts, perhaps I could use it as a precident for Ireland - given that we're all one great big happy European Union 'n' all... ::)
Am I right in saying/thinking that Fred Bear killed a Kodiak bear with his bow to prove that it could be done? Or is that just an "old archer's tale"? :)
Another story I've been told is of Howard Hill accepting a bet from a Texan that he couldn't kill an elephant with his bow... so he did. Several times.
I'm not saying I'm going to go shooting arrows into Irish animals to prove they can be as effective as bullets but it's more the "correct information" about how legalised bowhunting was fought for in the States that I'm in search of. I can present those facts to whoever I need to over here as part of my arguement.
Thanks again,
Steve.
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Steve-- in the states we dont have any form of shooting test to get a license. We just have a hunters education/ safety course. In WI. everyone born after 1973 must take the test.
Bow hunting in the US started right here in WI. in 1931 and has been a huge success. Here is a great article about it. http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/oct96/bowhunt.htm
Many other countries/continents," most actually", allow bow hunting. Some of them included are Denmark,France,Spain,Portugal,Italy,Hungary,Finland,Bulgaria,Slovenia. Also Canada,New Zealand,Australia,Russia,Africa, and South America, I saw a report that it is was very recently legalized in Sweden for small game as well. Hope this helps
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Thank you SO much, Jesse!!
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Thank you SO much, Jesse!!
Your very welcome :)
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That's a very good article Jesse Thanks for sharing.I really enjoyed it Power of the people.
HatchA just a thought if we as a community can gather info like this from all the states and provinces of Canada and as PatB recommended to get a hold of the German and other european nations.This could really help you on your quest.I know a little muscle in the Alberta trad bowhunters assoc.If we can help I'm sure we will.Keep the faith
Thanks Leroy
Spelling and grammer not the resposiblity of auther
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Thanks Stoker, that's a great idea! Not just for my quest but for anyone in a similar position in the future...
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Thought I'd give a little update on things here...
Up until Friday just gone I still hadn't gotten any reply from my initial mail. I looked into the Society's site again and found there are "regional branches" so I sent a mail at almost two thirty AM on Saturday morning to the chairman of, what would be considered my nearest branch - based about 90 miles away from me. I won't lie to you - it was a long and (hopefully) informative mail in which I hoped to get across my sincerity and passion in an effort to be taken seriously. I think it may have worked because the chairman's invited me to discuss the matter further with him.
I reckon (and I know it's not good to assume but anyway...) that he's a firearm hunter by upbringing and belief. As below in a copy of his reply to me, he's already had discussions with European bowhunters and still falls short of being convinced. I've invited a friend/bowhunter along to the talks as he has actual experience of hunting (albeit with a compound) in South Africa and has some amazing pictures on his facebook page too. He's told me about shooting a doe as she lays on the ground. The doe only flinching slightly as the arrow passes through her and then she falls asleep and never wakes. How can that be considered "inhumane"?? Hopefully we'll be able to open some eyes and educate people, or at least we'll know what we're up against and I can then petition the CIC in Europe (that he mentions) and take things from there.
Here's his response to me...
"Dear Stephen, Your E-Mail is most interesting although as you expect i have issues with your opinions. Re bowhunting i have had this debate with other bowhunters within CIC in Europe and i am still not convinced? Perhaps you would like to come and visit Screebe and continue the disscusion, i can talk about deer till the cows come home. I look forward to meeting you, best wishes Paul Wood"
I wasn't going to post my email to him but if anyone wants to see it, maybe I should and then people could tell me where I went wrong and what needs to be amended at the meeting? All criticism appreciated ;)
Thanks,
Steve.
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A foot in the door.He didn't say NO.
Thanks Leroy
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Thanks Leroy.
I just got off the phone with the guy I want to bring along with me - he pointed out many pitfalls and obstacles that stand in my path and I gotta say... it's daunting.
I gotta convince a gun-hunting culture that bowhunting is effective - Considering they've pretty much had free reign to hunt deer for as long as it's been around, how are they going to feel about "sharing" the deer - let alone allowing the bows in first to pick off all the best specimens...?
If bowhunting gets passed in Ireland, it'll need to be governed and regulated - who will they turn to for this?? The existing archery governing board, most likely - which by all accounts is run by idiots more interested in the "social aspect" of archery rather than the "competitive aspect". I'm not particularly interested in archery competitions but I do understand that competitiveness breeds the necessity to be GOOD at what you do. If you're going to go down that road, then 95 times out of 100, you'll end up getting the arrow where you want it, instead of 75 or even 85 times. It all leads to accuracy.
I gotta go out now but I must admit - I'm feeling pretty f*ckin' sh!tty about all this right now.
Apologies for the mini-rant.
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A very interesting thread. I'll be watching and I do hope things go in your favor.
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Thanks Parnell.
My apologies for blowing off steam yesterday but the guy I was counting on to help me out, seemed to be throwing up every conceivable obstacle in front of me; before I even get started talking about it. To be fair, I did/do need to know these things but the way he blasted me with them - it didn't so much take the wind out of my sails as, ripped the mast out of the boat and stab me withe the splintery end...
He's a compound shooter. He thinks it might be "better" to put all the "kinetic energy" info and the exact calculable performance stuff forward as examples of how effective bows can be. I must admit to not having the first bloody clue as to what he's on about. I go through these hallowed pages - seeing post after post of successful hunts using, not only traditional but also PRIMITIVE equipment and I think to myself "it clearly works... what's the big bloody deal???!!?" He's thinking that if we argue on the basis of the effectiveness of bows using a compound as an example - they might legalise "bowhunting" and we could sneak traditional bows in under cover of the encompassing umbrella, if that makes sense?
Kinda like how black powder hunting is now legal in (some of) the states in America - Rifles having a tried and tested track record; setting the groundwork for "less modern" firearms to join in.
Perhaps I'll talk with this chap in the Society, see what he's got against bowhunting and then work towards finding and providing adequate evidence in the hopes of swaying him.
Keep ya's posted.
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What I don't understand is why you have to have this guy's permission? ???Is hunting deer controlled by some hunting club, or the Government? If he needs proof you can kill deer with Traditional bows or Primitve gear all he has to do is look on this site or Tradgangs site.
It sounds to me like smoke being blown up the proverbial Kilt so they can have exclusive rights to shooting them. ::)
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HatchA , I am not at all up to date with your country's laws and my comments may that ignorance.
One fact holds true for elected officials the world over and it is self evident. They have to be elected.
We have a tactic that works well and for lack of a better name call it the Big Tent Philosophy. For the most part hunters of all stripes (and weapons) form a collective body in concert against the oppressors, ie; the ones in power
opposed to hunting or shooting or any weapon in the hands of a citizen. Instead of many small factions railing you get one much larger group with a combined total greater than the sum of it's parts.
I would suggest contacting members of all shooting or game taking activities. If the groups can get along with each other it can benefit all concerned.You can then have an influence on what is done and why. You will have more resources , more contacts, more money ,and of course, more votes which is the key to change.
Ain't gonna be easy none a'tall. And the system is not perfect by any means but at least in the States it has worked.
Luck to you.
Lane
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Thanks Lane - it's something I've thought about but to be honest, I ain't got the first idea where to look. I'm thinking (much as I hate it) a Facebook page for Irish Bowhunting might be a place to start...
Eddie - I'm not so much in need of this guy's permission but as he's a member of the Irish Deer Society, he's involved in the "humane management" side of things so I'm thinking if he comes around to the idea of bowhunting, then he might be a valuable asset on "my side" as it were.
Though I think that you may be right regarding the exclusive rights thing... I'm half hoping he doesn't actually hunt deer himself :D
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OK... bit of an update on this...
Due to family priorities, I still have yet to meet the guy with the Deer Society but hope to do so towards the end of May.
While I've been busy with other commitments and Easter, I haven't been ignoring the task in hand completely... I got in touch with the president of the European Bowhunting Federation (Anders Gejer) and he's given me some very good and interesting adice and info regarding what steps to take etc. He's also connected me with Bowhunt Scotland - an organisation attempting to get bowhunting legalised there too (they are a Helluva lot further down the road than I am so I'll be paying close attention to how things develop!).
Anders also connected me with another Irishman who was in contact with the EBF last year, about the same thing!! He (Eugene) says he's been amassing information, statistics and all that good stuff and will soon be sending it all into the governmental department in charge of hunting and fishing, etc. I've asked if he wants to come along with me to the Deer Society guy and he says if he can't make it, he'll at least forward all the info to me to pass on.
As much help as you guys have been (and are!!), there's only so much you can do from thousands of miles away.
Suddenly I don't feel so alone in this any more...
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Nothing worse than being the lone prophet crying out in the vast wilderness. I am so glad you caught the attention of like minded persons. There will be differences of opinion, but keeping the united front lends strength to your arguments. If you can get modern gun hunting organizations to support you, so much the better.
Here in the U.S. the anti-hunting organizations are laughing up their sleeves as the wheel bow people fight with the gun people, the traditional muzzleloader people battle with the in-line muzzleloader people, and the primitive archery crowd (not all of you, of course) run around the whole lot sniping everyone else from the bushes!
All of us here in the Forum are cheering for you, Hatch.
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Well, as much as I dislike Facebook, I joined a group titled "Traditional Archers Ireland" (administered by someone I know personally) and posted a question: Are you in favour of bowhunting being legalised in Ireland.
*sigh...*
I'm dealing with a bunch of phuckin' morons in this bloody country >:(
The ignorance is astounding. I knew to expect a significant amount of ignorance but you'd think after they're confronted with information, quotes and facts again and again, that they'd at least stop spouting shite and keep their mouths shut if they'd nothing intelligent to say or contribute to the discussion.
It seems that's just expecting a little too much ::)
Anyone who wants to can search Facebook for the above mentioned group and have a read of the comments posted after the poll. I'd appreciate honest opinions on how I came across - were my posts correct, informative and for the most part; respectful (right up until my last post yesterday). Not sure if I can post a direct link to the page so I'll leave it for people to look it up themselves ;)
Thanks, Steve.
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How about starting your own Facebook page called, "Traditional Bowhunters of Ireland". Start your own group and maybe model it after the TBH clubs in the US. If you get enough members or interestd people, that builds into Political clout. You can also have 3-D shoots with the course designed along huting situations.
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How about starting your own Facebook page called, "Traditional Bowhunters of Ireland". Start your own group and maybe model it after the TBH clubs in the US. If you get enough members or interestd people, that builds into Political clout. You can also have 3-D shoots with the course designed along huting situations.
Eddie, I'm a member of Lonewolf Traditional Bowhunters and we held a shoot in Ireland last July. All the targets were set up in natural hunting situations - stuck behind trees, down in dips, all that sort of thing. Most of the people that came to the shoot arrived in combat/camoflage gear, army/hunting/hiking boots and carried some form of knife on their belt. They're quite happy dressing up and playing at "weekend warriors" every now and then but can't seem to comprehend the significance of it all...
Some guy actually said "It would serve no useful purpose and bring archery in Ireland into disrepute." I mean, seriously... What possible evidence could he possibly have to warrant posting such a ridiculous statement? 100% personal opinion - absolutely no information to back it up whatsoever.
I ain't gonna let them get to me though :) life's not worth the hassle.
I am, however, going to set up (somehow) an Irish Bowhunting Association and hopefully approach the relevant authorities etc. Anders (president of the EBF) will be in a better position to assist us then. It's just the setting up of the association that I ain't got a clue about ;D hahaha
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Hatch I read the facebook stuff and man what a pain in the ass trying to deal with people like that!Thought you made your point with valid facts but was dismayed that the folks did not seem to even read what you said.
I am not well versed in your country's traditions but can plainly detect bigotry and it looks to me like you are facing plenty of that. A simple question about anything is just that. Simple.
You have a lot of support but the problem is that us folks at PA form the bulk of it. I agree with Eddie, if you had a club of folks that restricted themselves by choice to primitive weapons( preferably that they had made) I don't think the commando types would be a problem.Finding those people would be the problem and they most likely ain't on facebook.
I admire you for what you are trying to do. A worthy battle for sure.
Good luck. Don't let the dog get your ash. ;D ::)
Lane
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Thanks for taking the time to read through it and then comment here, Lane; I appreciate that.
Your last line put a big ol' smile on my face too ;D
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I don't know if this is being discussed but I'll give my opinion.
I, like HatchA, live in Ireland and am a fan of archery. I think it would be a great if bow hunting was legalised in Ireland. I'd say the best way to legalise bowhunting in Ireland is to start off with maybe allowing the bowhunting of non-native and invasive species here in Ireland, and have it regulated and have proficiency tests and specific seasons to do so, make it sound like it's going to be favourable to them as much as possible. Like what Michaels Collins did with the Anglo-Irish treaty in 1921, it wasn't what Collins wanted so to speak but it gave Ireland quote "the freedom to achieve freedom". It wouldn't hurt if you had some TDs on your side perhaps.
Just my two cents.
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Interesting discussion. I'm glad this thread was revived.
As far as I can tell, regulations in the UK prohibit any type of hunting with a bow. The only thing I can find is spearfishing in ocean waters. Not quite bowfishing, but close. ;D
http://spearfishingireland.ie/regs.html
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Still afraid the unwashed masses will rise up and throw over the nobility, I bet. More so for the Irish.
Not sure if the term "unwashed" applies to HatchA, though, I heard he got caught in the rain last month. >:D
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Still afraid the unwashed masses will rise up and throw over the nobility, I bet.
Good visuals there... ;D
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I don't know if this is being discussed but I'll give my opinion.
I, like HatchA, live in Ireland and am a fan of archery. I think it would be a great if bow hunting was legalised in Ireland. I'd say the best way to legalise bowhunting in Ireland is to start off with maybe allowing the bowhunting of non-native and invasive species here in Ireland, and have it regulated and have proficiency tests and specific seasons to do so, make it sound like it's going to be favourable to them as much as possible. Like what Michaels Collins did with the Anglo-Irish treaty in 1921, it wasn't what Collins wanted so to speak but it gave Ireland quote "the freedom to achieve freedom". It wouldn't hurt if you had some TDs on your side perhaps.
Just my two cents.
The problem I have with the proficiency test is the government has a problem seperating compound bows from traditional bows when it comes to range.