Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: half eye on February 04, 2011, 02:28:43 pm
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Workin on a trade with Wildman, here is my first attempt at a Shawnee style bow. It's 55" ntn, 54# @ 28, and will draw to 29". The bow is Hickory with a red elm belly lamination (wasn't supposed to be that way). The Hickory had about 7/8" of natural defelex and I did not straighten that.....just left it. It took 1" of set from my tillering, which normally I dont mind but combined it's too much.
The bow is 1-1/8" wide at the grip and tapers slightly to the tips. I tillered the bow out and then cut the sides to the pattern which dropped the draw weight from 50# to 38#.....so it got the red elm belly lamination which jumped it up to 60# then tillered back down to 54# @ 28".
Anyway here's the bow, the first pic is the museum bow I based it on. It's from the Canadian Muesum (Musee McCord) and is attributed to Tecumseh. I just used the plan view because it was supposedly Shawnee and looked pretty cool to boot. Later today I'm gonna build the real deal for the trade and make sure it comes out with an acceptable amount of set....say 1 to 1-1/2 inches or so. hope ya like the pics.
Hopefully Wildman wont get tired of waitin on the old man.
rich
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Thankyou for sharing this. I admire your work, especially because its native american focused. Very nice. On these narrow pieces How do you go about keeping your set at the lowest?
Cesar
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Legionnaire,
I found that for low set and full circle bows I usually make about 4 to 6 inches of the center of the bow the thickest part and then "slow taper" the belly to the tips. The NA bows that are tapered in plan view (like a pryamid) appear to be the same thickness but actually when you sand the backs and bellies they take a slight thickness taper. I guess because if the pressure is constant then the narrower portions get thinner than the wide sections. The bows with side carving and "waisted" grips I leave just a smidge thicker yet to compensate. The bow just sort of comes out to be a circle that way, if you make it the exact same thickness throughout it's real easy to get too much bend in the middle. JMO
rich
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Nice! I need to make one of these to shoot when hog hunting out ground blinds. Thanks for posting it.
George
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Nice bow. I really like that tiller. I just started on my first native american inspired bow.
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Crap, Rich! You just don't stop, sir! Do you think this would be a good style of bow to try in White Ash? I have some and am thinking of what to make with it.
-CP (Albert)
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Very cool bow Rick. You sure do have those northern Native bows down pat.
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Rich
Great to see another work of art from you.
She is a real beauty for sure!
Curious though...How do you keep that style of working limb from splintering, ie, the way the wood is cut in with that almost layered look.
A HOW-TO on this one would be outstanding!
Once again, beautiful weapon as usual!
Ron
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That's awesome Rich!!! Hey I see you're from Michigan, me too, just a little north of grand rapids. I would love to see some of those awesome bows in person. I'm still somewhat new to bow building, thanks for all the inspiration.
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Very nice Rich. You continue to amaze and inspire!
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Thank you for the nice words....
Cacatch, Got to believe that ash would make a really good one....also forgot to mention that the museum bow is 63" long (158.5cm) mine is way shorter.
Okie, This was my first Hickory bow, and think most of the guys "trap" the backs....so that is what I did, then cut the sides, then took off the lines from trapping.......the back looks like a "low-crown" stave in cross section.
Tattoo, Ya we are about 30 miles north of Traverse City. Glad to see any of ya fellas, anytime. Small reward for not having to go to work no more.
Again, thanks fellas.....means alot commin from fellow bow-builders.
rich
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Excellent work as always. You guys have a really interesting and varied heritage of bows to work from.
Great to see your bows.
Del
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Your a beast. Tiller looks very fast.
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another cool shorty Rich, awsome bow, Bub
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OH YEAH Now I'm like a kid before christmas. I am in lust ;D
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Wildman,
glad ya like it, probably send ya this one along with the new one......this one has too much set for me but I have to say that it has some serious speed and shoots hard anyways......so I dont want to cut it up for the fire. Will be gettin them to ya here shortly.
rich
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Way to generous I got a extra for ya.If they shoot half as good as they look I'll be tickled
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May send ya a live cat for that deal ( you litter train) ;D >:D
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Thank ya kindly for the offer, but I was around one before.........think I'll pass ;D
rich
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Outstanding bow..I would like to see more pictures of the original if there is a web link or something. The one you posted I would have to guess shows the belly of the bow and the back is not cut into the back grain, or is it? How's it linked to Tecumseh, I wonder. It is also interesting how much the nock ends resemble the eastern Cherokee bows. Thanks for sharing the bow it has sparked my interest.
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Great looking bow Rich. Now I understand about the design you were telling me about. I think you could make a great looking, good shooter out of a toothpick ;) ;D
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Nice looking bow my friend. Like those scallop bows hey ? Rich get a coat on your going to get sick. If you run out of snow let me know I have plenty extra.lol Denny
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Thank you fellas again
NC - The bow is incise carved on the back, the belly is smooth. I'm sending the direct link to your email address cause I dont know how to post it on PA. Maybe you could also post it for everybody else? When ya call up the bow on the site, it has 10 different shots of it and some are of the back.....on the back there is writing in French indicating the Tecumseh connection. Also the man who founded the Museum (Mr. McCord) is the man who donated the bow and refferences the connection as well. Hope that will help ya out......
Also, because of some discussions on the site I've had before I've started collecting photo's of woodland bows that clearly show the split board bows I refferenced in the PA article on Ottawa Bows (split out wood like fully quartersawn lumber) Have four examples so far. I cant really tell on this bow but there are a couple of shots that look like it MIGHT be a board but I cant be sure so it's not included in the collection.....it might explain the carved back however.
rich
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another fine job Rich, you really have a talent,let wild man stew awhile and just send that one my way. >:D
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nice to see you come out of retirement Rich, damn nice bow excellent work and a beautiful full draw ! what cha gonna build today ?
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Very cool looking bow halfeye. I have not studied that much on the various styles of NA bows but that one is sure unique looking. Its bows like this one tha treally make sites like this worthwhile. Most of us would never even get to see something like this without these forums that allow us to share our projects and techniques. Once again great job. Danny
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Inspirational, as always. I think this was the kick start I needed to get back out to the bow shop... problem lately has been weather. I don't have an enclosed shop, so as long as we are under these artic blast conditions, I'm not fighting the cold for any hobby, you know?
Good to be back on the boards,
Doug
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http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scripts/viewobject.php?Lang=1§ion=mylist&accessnumber=M435&imageID=302380&pageMulti=1
Half Eye, here's the link if it works, I'm not real knowledgeable about posting links and pics myself. I did search the website from the info on the picture you posted and found it last night. I think just searching "Musee McCord Museum" will locate the website, then type "bow" in the search window. Once I got to looking at the website I spent about two hours looking at all the other great stuff on there. Thanks again for posting the pic of the bow. I do not read French but I could make out something about "Chief" or "Chef" written on the back. The engravings are also awesome. The web site is stored in my favorites.
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prosaffel, thats what kitchens are for in the winter. You have to hog tie tje wife and if you have wood or linoleum floors ,the shavings clean up real good, lol. Danny
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"prosaffel, thats what kitchens are for in the winter. You have to hog tie tje wife and if you have wood or linoleum floors ,the shavings clean up real good, lol. Danny"
Ha, I second that, ;D
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This really is a neat little bow!
About how thick is it at the midlimb area?
Really nice bow!! :) :) :)
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Another amazing piece of work!
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Nice
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Thanks again wor the kind words.....
ohma, you must know wildman, eh?
Ken, ya I know "old and slow"
Prosaffel, I hear ya my shed's not heated either and it's been from single digits to -24 , sort of takes the desire out of ya, dont it?
nclonghunter, thanks for posting that...it's got some pretty "different" bows for sure.
1776J, This bow is 1/2" thick all the way out, and tapers from 1- 1/4 inch at the grip area to 3/4" at the string groove. The second one I'm building is hard maple self bow and right now it's 1/2" thick all the way out and 1-3/8" to 3/4"....it's a lot stronger and is at a point where it can be braced....maybe about 70# at draw so it's got to come down quite a bit.
Almost, crooketarrow thank you fellas.
rich
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Beautiful bow as usuall Rich,You do some pretty cool work. :)
Pappy
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1776J, This bow is 1/2" thick all the way out, and tapers from 1- 1/4 inch at the grip area to 3/4" at the string groove. The second one I'm building is hard maple self bow and right now it's 1/2" thick all the way out and 1-3/8" to 3/4"....it's a lot stronger and is at a point where it can be braced....maybe about 70# at draw so it's got to come down quite a bit.
Almost, crooketarrow thank you fellas.
rich
Rich,
Thanks for the info,.... I was wondering if it was that thin.
Thanks.
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nclonghunter
thanks for the link.
Rich, once again unbelievable craftsmanship. I'm going back and forth between close-ups of the museum piece and yours.....Are you sure the museum still has it's property? ;D
Sweet Jesus! Your not letting me get near proficient at any type of bow before you are giving me the bug on another style....
When's the book coming out. ;)
All the best
Ron
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most of the guys "trap" the backs....so that is what I did, then cut the sides, then took off the lines from trapping.......the back looks like a "low-crown" stave in cross section.
To what degree did you do the trapping?
How harsh and angle,...how much on each side? (1/8"...1/16"...?)
Is it more of an oval shape or is the trapezoid shape pretty distinct when you look at it with only the very edges rounded off?
I need to know where to go with my hickory bow I'm working on. Never "trapped" a bow and want to make sure I'm not taking to much off or not enough.
Thanks a million Rich!!!! ;D ;D
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1776, The way I trapped this was to make a shallow flat plane up both sides of the back maybe from 3/8 near the grip tapering to about 1/8 to 1/4 at the tip and maybe only 1/8" deep into the side flat. That made the back look like a shallow triangle with a flat top. Then I hand sanded the sharp corners off so the cross section lookes like a stave with a shallow crown.
You can do the same thing but make the first cuts deeper and the bow would look like a "high-crown" stave....or somewhere in between. I think that if the design is going to be a really high stress you may want to make the "trap" higher but for a lot of the designs I believe that the "low-crown" will do the job......it will also remove less draw weight.
hope that is what ya needed, maybe somebody with more Hickory experience could fill you in better. Maybe a PM to Ken 75 (know he makes a lot of hickory bows and has lots of experience with trapping backs). But the above is how I did this particular bow.
rich
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Love your work! 8)
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Pappy, OkieCB, 1776, Jackcrafty....Thanks fellas, glad ya like 'em.
rich
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just saw this one, I like this style even better than the ottawa, similar but nicer with the deco on the back as well, I'd love to see these type of bows shoot, interesting tiller ,very different from the kinda bows I've bee making. but I loike em..
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After the first bow for Wildman had too much set for my liking I built a second one pluss a Chippewa (Ojibwe) of the same length and same weight range.
The first one is the new Shawnee. It's 57" ntn, right about 50# at 28" 1-3/8" wide at the grip This bow is hickory backed red elm and has just under an inch of set.
The second one is the scalloped Ojibwe bow and it is also 57" ntn, about 50# @ 28" and is about 1-1/2" wide at the grip. The bow is walnut backed white ash.
Only thing left is the design artwork and a couple of "wind-feathers" and we'll see what Wildman thinks?
rich
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Here is the second one...
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They're both just great, Rich. For some reason though, that Ojibwe is really striking to me though. I love that tiller and the dark backing. Also, seeing how you've narrowed down the nocks from the dimensions I see in text. Very interesting bow, wish I could shoot that!
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you're the man Rich, everyone should shoot these native style bows to see how good they really are, Bub
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WOW those are really nice!
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I love these bows, very nicely done. Has finding reference pictures been easy? I spent a fair amount of time searching the internet last evening but didn't come away with much...
Anyway, it's great to see someone making these types of bows.
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Lee,
Glad to share the museum bows (pics) I have found....I cant put pics on the darned PM's so if you want to, my email address is on my profile....send me one and I'll put the pics, links etc. on the return.
Thanks fellas for the kind words....and Bubby that one ya just finished is as nice as any....period.
rich
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Half eye those are some nice looking bows. I hope I dont come off as rude by asking this but is there a reason that the one posted on the first page bends so much in the handle and not much in the limbs? Is this the way the bow is designed? Again hope that doesn't come off sounding bad. I'm just curious. :) Thanks
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Lee,
Glad to share the museum bows (pics) I have found....I cant put pics on the darned PM's so if you want to, my email address is on my profile....send me one and I'll put the pics, links etc. on the return.
Thanks fellas for the kind words....and Bubby that one ya just finished is as nice as any....period.
rich
Thanks Rich, just fired off an email to you...it will come under the name Blackriverraptors.
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Jesse,
I dont think thats rude at all.....these bows were made 57" long so to get the 27/28 draw I needed, I left the tips a little stiff to add some cast. When the bows get real short I make them more circular in tiller to gain some draw length. Also the first bow I didn't let the hickory stabilize enough before tillering and stressing it....so most of the set came in the middle 1/3 of the bow....which also did not help and why I redid the Shawnee bow..... The first one looks odd because I made a stupid mistake.
rich
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Thanks Rich. I like seeing these short bows :)
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Those are perfect tillers Rich. Excellent replicas!
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thank's Rich that means a lot, ya know I was wondering, I shoot off the scalloped side and you said that was the info you got also but if ya wanted to shoot off the straight side you're almost center shot.I've tryed it both ways and like the scalloped side better, but I don't shoot anything close to center, have you tryed this?, Bub
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Freaking cool. beautiful tiller.
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Hey bubby,
As a matter of fact I have "flipped 'em over.....I had the same experience, even though the scalloped side is asymetric the bow shoots a lot better off that side for me as well......go figure?
rich
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Thats SWEETTTTTTTT
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I just love those round tillers. Just beautiful.
Here is the second one...
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Finally got everything finished and ready for the mail. Got the bows painted, finished and the wind fetishes on. Left to right the bows are.....Shawnee (hick backed ash)....Shawnee (hick with elm belly lam)....Ojibwe (wlanut backed elm). The designs on the grip of the first bow represents the Shawnee Nation from their flag, and the 1793 and snake represents the first treaty they signed. That was signed in that year and was authorized under the symbol of the snake. The compass rose with 12 under it represents the 13 bands of the Nation. This grip design will be recognizable to any Shawnee who sees it.
rich
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:o OH great Googly Moogly those are awe-some. Thanks for sharing Rich. What did you use to paint the tips?
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All the paint on the bows is regular ole wally-world acrylic....sticks ta wood like glue.
rich
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damn nice work Rich !!
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Those nocks are very nice. Incredible bows.
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Very very very nice. I love these smaller bows...
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WOW !
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Rich, that is some amazing work. I really love the feel of those bows but what I admire most about tem is research and tribute behind them. Excellent stuff!
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I am speechless WOW
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Rich that is superb work as always.....can't say enough. I got quite a few good remarks and lots of folks checking out my mollegabet this weekend at the 3d shoot. They were amazed at how light it was. One lady was from Denmark and she new the elder futhark as viking.
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Hey all. If you have not done so already, check out the Musee McCord Museum website. Their bow collection is fairly large compared to most museums. I found several bows on the site I'd like to make replicas of. Thanks for sharing the bow, but now, thanks even more for the Museum. Thumbs up!
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Man those shapes are incredible, nice work.
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Hey all. If you have not done so already, check out the Musee McCord Museum website. Their bow collection is fairly large compared to most museums. I found several bows on the site I'd like to make replicas of. Thanks for sharing the bow, but now, thanks even more for the Museum. Thumbs up!
these bows are indeed amazing.
and that website is a real treasure
thanks!