Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: animus_divinus on January 30, 2011, 03:50:38 am
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well, i should start by saying i really intend on retiring all my firearms for hunting and go solely bow for a while
as far as my background goes, i have a ton of experience working with wood, and have made numerous things in the past including musical instruments, so the tools and skills i have are certainly adequate
im actually looking to de-evolve my woodworking skills and stray away from power tools and get into using more hand tools for making bows and instruments, as well as other things i build here and there
so.. im looking to build a bow.. ive been trying to decide on whether i should go with a holmegaard flatbow, which is essentially a stone age tool. the same shape bow, but first made of laminating materials together, but ive also considered composite recurves like what the hungarians, huns, romans had.. however, i cant find ANY plans or information on that last one, so for the time being im going to skip it
i would like to make a bow using the simplest methods, using materials commonly found locally here in the united states, because of this im strongly leaning towards the holmegaard style flatbow using a 72 inch red oak stave.. i would like 55-65 pounds at a 28-30 inch pull.. i also completely intend to sinew back this with probably white-tail deer sinew, and then maybe cover that with something decorative, however thats not important.
the plans i have start off with a 5/8 inch thick stave, and the limbs taper to 5/16" at the nocks, i was wondering if these are suitable dimensions for a 55-65lb bow or if i would have to make the stave thicker prior to tillering and fine tuning the weight?
also, i was wondering if the sinew backing could be sanded down for a smooth surface for aesthetics without losing performance?... i intend to use hide glue for th is, as well as the riser since ive already retired my uses for modern synthetic glues and use only hide glue now on woodworking projects anyway
to be honest.. i didnt really think this holmegaard design was essentially stone age.. so im a bit torn between keeping this primitive with a leather grip, sinew string (im quite OK with flint arrowheads and natural feather arrows) or updating it with possibly a braided velvet or linen grip with linen string?...
anyway, those are all the questions im currently thinking of.. leaning towards the primitive red oak holmegaard style flatbow.. just wondering if the dimensions i mentioned would be thick enough for the draw im after and all that.
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I haven't used sinew much but know the bow is too long for it. The sinew will slow it down. I also never did a Holmie but that may be a tough first build. Is this a board stave? Anyway, here is my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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first off WELCOME TO PA ;D
use Georges web site,it will help immensly
yes 72" is to long for sinew,but a good length for a first bow
i would also check with your local hunting regs to make sure stone heads are legal before you go out hunting with them
not all states allow them.i cant hunt with them here in minnesota,but that dont keep me from making them.but our laws are very clear that "all broad heads must contain atleast 2 metal cutting edges"
just a little food for thought
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theres nothing in my local regulations about stone arrowheads, the only regulations involving the broadheads just state that i cannot use barbed arrowheads.. which is all fine as i would never use barbed anyway, makes it a PITA to remove them
so... sinew is too long for a 72" bow.. what sort of natural backing materials would you guys suggest to make a better bow thats widely available? besides other piece of wood?.. rawhide maybe?
another question... what about cutting flat pieces of deer antler to glue on both sides of the nock?.. would be nice to have a little extra support here, and i would like to use locally available natural materials.. and would a sinew bowstring still be appropriate? or is there another option while keeping accurate to the caveman technology?
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i forgot to answer the question of the wood.. i have a local lumber yard here that sells a variety of quartersawn hardwoods with the proper grain directions for making a bow.. red oak is one of them, seems to be a rather common bow material, and is also one of the most widely distributed hardwoods in north america, so all of these made it seem like the best choice.. i will be getting a red oak board and planing it perfectly smooth and squared off prior to cutting the shape of the bow
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"I haven't used sinew much but know the bow is too long for it. The sinew will slow it down. I also never did a Holmie but that may be a tough first build. Is this a board stave? Anyway, here is my site. Jawge"
"yes 72" is to long for sinew,but a good length for a first bow"
I have to disagree strongly. I've sinew backed bows around that length that pull 45# and shoot great. Without reflexing while sinewing. The bows were oval shaped instead of typical flatbows to be fair. But sinew will suit any length as long as you reflex the stave enough while sinewing to make sure that it does it's fair share of weight instead of just add weight. The longer the bow the more reflex you need to add. As 5" reflex on a shorter bow will stretch the sinew about as much as 10" reflex on a longer bow, generally speaking.
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If you have never built a bow I would suggest you read George's site and follow his directions for choosing wood and learning to tiller a wood bow. Once you get that worked out you can use that knowledge to build any sort of bow you fancy. One thing all of the varried styles of bows have in common is tillering. Without proper tillering skills none of these styles will preform as they should.
It is easy to tie a short string between the tips of a stick. That "bow" will fling an arrow without any tillering at all. Making a bow that is efficient, durable and attractive is another story. Without tillering skills you won't be satisfied with the outcome.
Wood bow building lends itself well to the use of hand tools. Most of us started building our first bows with nothing more than simple hand tools like a hand ax, draw knife, wood rasps, spoke shaves and cabinet scrapers.
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well, for this one ill probably use my bandsaw to cut the initial shape of the bow, then fine tune the shape with rasps, files, and planes, then on the next one ill see if i can get to that initial shape using simpler tools, like a hand ax
i know about tillering, already looked into all of that
and i guess what knot was saying is that for a longbow profile, sinew may not work, and i would have to turn the flatbow into a recurve for it to be worth adding sinew
that being said, ill skip on the sinew since i want this bow using the fewest tools as possible, and to recurve it i will either need to build a form and glue together laminations, or steam the wood and bend in a form to dry... either one of these i have the tools to do now, but i dont want to use them
so, ill have to find another backing material, linen or rawhide of either of these wont decrease the efficiency of the bow
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If you post some good pics of the board stave we could advise better, but there is a chance it does not need backing at all to become a durable bow.
Darcy
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its going to be a 4/4, 1 1/2" wide quartersawn red oak board 72 inches long, ill be going to the lumberyard in the near future to pick out a knot free piece with the best grain structure
the drawings i have begin at 5/8 thickness and taper to 5/16 thickness, this wont be enough to create a bow of the strength i need
so, i would need to decide what the best starting thickness would be, and what kind of taper i would need to get me a 55-65 pound bow, i doubt rawhide or linen backing would do it, so ill have to come up with another contour prior to tillering
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Straight lines on the board from one end to the other and it'll make an unbacked bow to 55# without too much trouble. It all depends on the tiller and the degree of fibre violation. 28 inch draw and 72 inches long, a good board will get you there. Best of luck.
Darcy
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so should i just cut the board to have straight 5/8 inch thick limbs and tiller from there to get the weight i want?.. or will i have to make them thicker than 5'8?
im also toying with the idea of a composite recurve of the common hungarian design, but its nearly impossible to find as much data on that as other bows, so im having a hard time finding a good tutorial or drawings
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If your lumber yards has a selection of hardwoods then perhaps you would be best to look for another wood instead. Hickory or Elm are a better choice for making your first bow and Hard Maple is also a good choice. Be very picky about the wood you choose.
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IF i go with the holmegaard type, im going to go with wood thats commonly found around here.. red oak and maple are the only common hardwoods, hickory is hard to find, elm even harder
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well, i may go maple afterall, and im going to go with 2 inch wide limbs which taper into about a 1" wide limb, then tapers into the nock with that bit being round in cross section, then im free to work on the thickness of the bow limbs until i get the tillering i need and the weight and draw length i want, i probably wont use any backing
with this ill make some wooden arrow shafts, and use obsidian arrowheads which i will probably soak sinew in hide glue to attach the arrowheads
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ok.. heres what i have so far.. with no plans at all to go on, and just word descriptions and photos.. this is what i imagine to be a holmgaard that i designed in a 3D solid modeling program
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5214/5404523922_5793be47e9_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5059/5403943195_a03d8128b3_b.jpg
the inner limbs are 2 x 1/2 inches, the outter limbs start at 1x1 and taper to 1/2 x 1/2... the grip is 1 inch wide, 1 1/2 inches deep (i have large hands and felt making it a tad larger here would be more comfortable)... and the overall length is 72 inches...
any comments about this?.. does this seem to be a proper holmegaard bow or did i get something wrong?
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Nice 3D rendering. The proportions look right but not for a Holmegaard. What is drawn out is a Mollegabet. They both date to the middle stone age but the non bending part of the Holmegaard starts wide and flat then gradually tapers to a thickened point at the tip. Both bows function under the same principle- Low string angle at full draw and the non bending part of the limb increases the amount of leverage applied to the arrow upon release.
You picked a tough first build imo but if you go slowly and stick with it you will have a fine shooting bow. Red oak should do ok but you may want to consider backing it with hickory just to be on the safe side. Best of luck with your project!
Hank
PS: Here's a link to a page that shows the original Holmegaard artifact: http://oldtiden.natmus.dk/udstillingen/jaegerstenalderen/jaegerstenalderens_buer_og_pile/verdens_aeldste_buer/language/u/
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i had a very simple formula for making that bow.. all proportions relate to other proportions of the bow... i also figured id extend the length of this bow and size of the grip to better fit myself, as im a lot taller than any caveman was, whats a 72" bow to one of us is probably more like a 60"-66" bow to them, so i made it proportionally to my size
the link you sent me is to a top view image.. there is a slight step between the inner and outter limbs, but its a lot more subtle... i would LOVE to see a side view profile of this
my wood options are white oak, red oak, cherry, and hard maple locally, i can only get the proper hickory, osage, yew, or elm bows if i shop online.. and i have been thinking of elm to be more accurate to what these stone age bows were.
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actually.. i just found a mollegabet bow with listed proportions, i hit the nail on the head with the formula i used and didnt even realize it.. thats just cool.. im going to save these dimensions since theyre spot on to exactly what i would need if i make a mollegabet.. now i just need to make one of an actual holmegaard and make a decision
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ok.. heres my criteria.. id like something in the pyramid bow design if possible.. backed or unbacked if possible.. roughly 65# at about 32" draw
materials i can get in quartersawn lumber with grains running end to end are red oak, white oak, hard maple, and ash...
the design ive come up with currently have .75" thick limbs that begin at 2" and taper to a point and i want roughly a 72" bow
my questions is... of the materials i mentioned, which would be best to use?.. of the materials mentioned are the limb thickness and width going to be able to deliver that kind of force?... if so, am i going to have trouble with grains lifting from the back of the bow needing me to back it?
if this bow needs backing to prevent grains lifting, would rawhide, or at the very least, linen be sufficient to prevent this and give me a good strong bow?
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Any of the above should work for that,3/4 limb thickness should be more than enough, I usually start about 5/8 and Rawhide should be fine,I use it a lot,deer or goat is better than cow just because it is thinner/lighter and still very strong. :) You just need to get a piece of wood and go for it,a plan is good but nothing like doing it. :) If you try and over think it ,it will drive you nuts.
You must have an engineering back ground. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Start a bow building journal and record your dimensions, wood type, techniques, mistakes,successes, etc. Seven ounce linen canvas makes a good backing for oak board bows. Quartersawn wood is hard to read because all four surfaces need to be straight lines. Have fun, learn new stuff!!!
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ive considered rawhide on a holmegaard style pyramid bow, but i might hold off on a pyramid bow until i can get something like a wych elm sapling and some stone tools to really give it a try the old fashioned way
so.. maybe a european style flatbow thatll give me a little more freedom to be a little more creative
i will write down findings in some sort of a document on my computer, as well as save the 3D cad files i create and use to print templates for the rough cutting of the core wood
i believe its 3 rivers archery that sells 72" long hickory boards for making bows... question i have is whats better, a hickory board bow, or a hardwood core of maple/oak with a hickory backing?... either way i could use linen, maybe even dyed linen for decoration and aesthetics
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I'm guessing no one will ever accuse you of jumping in without a plan. I'm more of a jump both both in and pray I can swim type ;) go to home depot/lowes/Menards and get a few red oak 1 by 2s and go to Jawges website. Half this website probably got started that way. A plan is good to have, but the wood may have a different one...good luck and have fun with it.
;)
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;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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Welcome to PA, AD!
A hickory board always gets my vote for beginning. I've broken MANY more oak attempts. But that's just me.
Hickory performs very well is you toast the belly of the bow. If the grain is running straight on the back, it takes an awful lot to break. The toasting of the belly at ground tiller compresses the cells so that it doesn't take too much follow. I've had lots of succesful hickory bows that are absolutely hunting quality. You've got a 32" draw, I saw? I had a young guy make his first bow - hickory - with a very long draw - almost 34". He's almost 7' tall. American flatbow, toasted belly, almost 60# at 33". All the woods listed will hold but hickory is a very safe and durable bet.
Just my two cents, good luck!
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well, the process of selecting wood is a little easier for me, i have a local lumberyard that had ash, white oak, red oak, hard maple, and a couple other hardwoods available in quartersawn boards with perfectly straight grains, so i really have quite an available, inexpensive selection here.. unfortunately i checked, and they do not have any suitable pieces of hickory.. so should i actually use hickory i will have to get it online, which means youd have to stack the cost of shipping on that too
i know other hardwoods are more likely to have grains lift, and are more prone to splitting because the wood itself cannot take the stretch that hickory, and other premium bow woods can, but some major questions i had are, is a hickory backed bow just as good, better, or worse than a straight-hickory bow?... also, how effective is rawhide or linen in preventing the grains from lifting on the back of a more common hardwood?...
also, should i use a more common hardwood like maple, red oak, or ash, are there any backings besides synthetics or other pieces of wood that i could use to maybe increase performance instead of just greater durability?
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The ones you've listed can all make a very fine bow. I'd just pick one and get on with the process. You can read about tillering until you're blue in the face but doing it is another thing. Hard maple makes a very light and quick bow. I think I'd choose that, if it were me. Haven't used ash but would like to. Oak is always a good bet. Look for more red colored red oak and of course look for the best grain. I'd choose the board that had the straightest grain on all sides of the board and go with it. Linen backing is straight forward and works well. I've applied it using TB2 and had good results. Rawhide is great, haven't done one yet but seen many.
The only "natural" backing that improves performance is sinew, but the bow needs to be a shorter length to take advantage of the properties of the material. You'd want to match sinew with a bow wood that has good elastic properties. Hope I'm not being redundant.
Cheers.
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well im curious as to what properties sinew would work better at?.. obviously since im not a very short person, a shorter bow may not get me the draw i need in a longbow shape, and for the sake of simplicity i dont want to be steaming any wood right now or going for a laminate
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I've had good experiences with hard maple and if designed correctly you should have no worry about breakage if all else is good. The bows I've made of maple were 66-68" with an 8" handle, 2" to mid limb and a straight taper to 3/8" nocks. They were probably a little over built but all shot great and were really easy to tiller.
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You could do Osage but to Sinew back it, it should no be more than 52'' or 54''. I have 2 one is 55# at 25'' the other is 75# at 25''. Understand on a longbow i have a 30'' draw. Shooting a shorter Indian style bow takes a little getting used too.
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well, i think id rather have a full length draw so id rather have a full size 72" longbow, either rawhide or linen backed... i think thats my plan
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u ask what is better a hickory bow or a hickory backed bow?
truthfully the difference is in whos doing the tillering....neither is better without a good tiller.