Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: recurve shooter on January 25, 2011, 01:01:27 am
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im looking to buy a new rifle soon, but i have some strange criteria and was wondering what you guys would suggest. i know some of you are rifle cranks, and have some surpluss rifles or old bolt actions. i want something scoped, cheap, and accurate. i LOVE the mossin nagant, but they dont come with scope rails, and gunsmith work aint cheap. the sniper version sells for like 400 i think and i really wanna go cheap. dragonovs are to expensive, but a friend recomended the mossin nagant scout carbine. dont know how accurate it would be though. i want something cheap, that i can get surpluss ammo for, that i can put a scope on, and that is verry accurate out to at least 100 yards. there isnt even a range in louisiana that i know of longer that 100, much less a hunting shot that far. sooo any suggestions? i like surpluss wwII rifles. ;D
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WAIT! looks like they make a scope rail that replaces the rear sight on a mosin, i assume it works on the full length rifle, where you can mount a long eye relief scope infront of the bolt. that looks like it would be PERFECT! anyone tried it or know anything about it? thanks!
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I went with the SKS very dependable and accurate,ammo is the cheapest out there,FMJ and Hollow points about the same price..IMO
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my sks didnt like scopes lol i shoot better iron site i have a carbine version of the mosin 1942 mdL i think they sell a scope mount that requires no drilling you could look into a kar98 or a 1909 7.65 Argentine Mauser,Yugoslav M48 Mauser they shoot well i ownd a dragonov a few years back it shot up to 1300 meters but it is very long and heavy. another one to look into is the Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 .303 British well thats all i can think of another one to look into is a Springfield but they ar not as cheap and the remington 700 well ttyl and good luck
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The Mosin-Nagant is a very dependable, easy to maintain, cheap rifle. It shoots the oldest military cartridge still in production (7.62x54R) and ammo is easy to find and cheap. I am a big fan of the Mosin, which was one if not the first smokeless bolt action rifle adopted by any military. It is actually a Belgium design in part.
Be aware that the M44 carbine has a tremendous kick. You can actually see the flame shooting out of the muzzle in low light conditions.
The safety on this weapon is rudimentary, be aware of that. Safest is to keep the chamber empty until you are ready to shoot, which may be liability if you plan to hunt. They use a five round box magazine, with either stripper clips or you can load each cartridge by hand after opening the bolt.
Also, you have a permanent bayonet mounted on the weapon, with folds out. Soviet / Russian doctrine called for the bayonet in a big way. Not sure why, the Russians really loved the bayonet, though.
If you are lucky enough to find an M44 dated 1943, it is valuable as a collector’s item, so don’t alter it. The carbine was in full production from 1944 through the middle 1950s, if I recall right. Most Soviet block countries manufactured or used it, so you can find Chinese ones, Yugo ones, Bulgarian, Romanian, East German, Vietnam, etc. It is possible that one you end up buying was used by the Red Army to take Berlin, or in some of the other very savage battles between them and Fritz, as the Soviets called the Germans. In a way, too, you are honoring the forces that really were the single biggest part of defeating Hitler.
Go on ebay or do a web search and you can find a zillion scope mounts for the Nagant.
I don’t have an M44 right now, but do shoot an 1895 3-line from Tula that was converted to a Finnish home guard rifle at one point, and a 1943 M91/30 made by anther arsenal. Both are highly accurate and a lot of fun. I used to think they were really ugly, but the look grows on you, and they have a kind of brutal, simple elegance. And these old military surplus bolters are far more rugged than AKs, SKSs, M16/AR-15s, etc. No polymers, no plastics, all steel and wood construction. If you never shot one, you probably will be surprised at how authoritative the report is when you pull the trigger for the first time. They are heavy enough (the regular infantry rifles, not the carbines) that recoil is pleasantly absorbed. They also have much greater range than most shooters can possibly utilize, and you can see that if you look at the rear sight and see how many meters they can be used at.
If you get the cheap Russian surplus ammo, clean the heck out your weapon after you shoot it, as they use corrosive primers in that kind of ammo.
Be aware that the M44s are getting a bit rarer to find anymore, and you may want to just stick with a 91/30. Both round and hex receivers are perfectly fine. I paid about 90 bucks for my 91/30. Try to look for all matching serial numbers for all components (bolt, box magazine, receiver, etc), but force matched are fine too.
If you do want to tackle converting one to a “sniper”, you can find reproduction scopes and mounting hardware for about 250 dollars. The machining is very simple to perform, so you don’t necessarily have to find a smith, mostly drilling and tapping the mount into the receiver and also removing some wood on the stock. I don’t think any M44 carbines were scope mounted by the USSR, though, but for a knock around rifle, why not? If you go that route, you will have to get a replacement bolt that has a bent bolt handle instead of the straight one of the standard infantry rifle. The mounting rail method is way easier, if not historical.
Dane
PS British SMLEs are fantastic, and super fast action, but more expensive and the ammo is more expensive than that Soviet weapons. The Mauser can be pricy, but is a lovely weapon, as well. Try to avoid the Mark IV jungle carbine variant if you decide on a British bolter, as they are exceptionally unpleasant to shoot, but really cool looking too.
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wow. dane, lots of info there! thanks man! my friend has one of the 91/30s, and everyone that shoots it falls in love with it. he sanded all the gunk off the wood and refinished it to a really pretty light oak collor. at the 100 yard rifle range (serriously, 100 yards is long range for louisianians. cant find a longer space to play in.) clay pigions, open sights off hand, just with the jurry rigged sling wrapped around your arm, is easy. i love the simplicity and just ruggedness (is that a word? :P) of them. and you are absolutely right about the report, weight, and pleasant recoil obsorbtion. as long as your wearing ear pluggs, its just sweet to shoot.
now, as for historical accuracy, though i would love to have the money and time to try for it, i just dont. im a senior in highschool workin as a buss boy lol not much cash here. i just want something reliable, cheap, accurate, and with a scope. sooo i believe the mosin is the way to go, just the standard long heavy and ugly. i think with that scope rail that replaces the rear sight, a nice modern scout rifle scope, a muzzle brake that replaces the bayonette, and maby some kinda bipod, it could be a really accurate, really cheap, really dependable "dragg through the swamp" rifle. i believe thats the way im gunna go.
UNLESS anyone has tried the scout scope rail rig things and found them to be not so great. ;D
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Wow is right! Good info Dane!
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Have you ever seen a M|N with a synthetic stock???? good looking rifle,,,there was a gun show here awhile back,, a guy had a few scoped like that $250.oo complete I couldn't keep my hands off of it!!!!,,,,,,,,no I didn't buy one that show is due back soon, I saved some $$$$$$ we'll see JW
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The only trouble with scoping a Mosin Nagant is that the standard rifles have a straight bolt handle. When you open the bolt the handle points straight up and wont clear a scope The sniper version has a turned down bolt handle. You can modify it though if you can weld. I may be biased being Canadian but having owned and shot the Lee enfeild, M91/30 and the M44, I'd take the Enfeild. Better quality and better handling gun. The 10 round box magazine does'nt hurt either. 303 ammo may cost a little more but all the big names make it besides military surplus and it is a whole lot easier and cheaper to reload than 7.62x54R. The Russian round uses a Berdan primer which can be hard to find and pricey when you do.
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they sell a kit, scope mount and turn down bolt that you cut off the straight and attach benddown, seems to me you can get a glass stock and the rest for $100.00, got my mosin at Big 5 for$75.00 but now the run about$90.00, got them all the time, and with the iron sights on the third or fourth shot I nailed 10 ring on our ranges 1,000 yd target, but that was just luck, Bub
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This is just my opinion, but I wouldn't waste my money on those old Eastern Block rifles. SKS before the Clinton ban could be bought for $80, now they are triple and still junk. Mosin Nagant were out gunned in Vietnam by Remington BDL's and Winchester's. You can buy good guns at gun shows for the same prices you by Russian stuff. Ammo is better, also. I wouldn't buy those guns unless I was collecting them for a military collection.
Also, a lot of that Russian, dirty, smokey ammo is full metal jacket, which is pretty much illegal to hunt with in most states.
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mullet, yeah the dirty smokey junky corrossive russian surpluss fmj rounds are illeagle, but cheap enough to shoot fifty rounds or so when i go to the range just for fun. and you can find soft nose hunting amo for it, new production, good stuff. but ima look up some of the other rifles these guys suggested and check them out, but if i can ever figure out if the scout scope settup for the mosin is any good, thats probably the rout i'll go.
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No problem on the info. I can see Mullet is not a fan of Russian stuff. He has a point on SKSs and of course, you gotta extend that to the AKs. AKs are absolute garbage compared to Western rifiles, the bolts bounce around like crazy and fit and finish are sub-par, but for what they were intended for, they do the job and really well.
As for the Mosin's being outgunned in Nam by Remingtons...how did all that end?
I got in an argument at an Armed Forces Day event a few years back with this dude who had a display. Nice guy, but when the conversation led to Russian vs. US and German weapons in WWII, and specifically the Panzer tanks vs. the Soviet T-34s, and which was superior as a battle tank. The guy hated the idea of the superiority of the T-34, but history shows us this is so.
In the end, the Mosin is a fun, very inexpensive weapon that has been pretty much continuously in use in conflicts around the world from the 1890s to today. They are still in use in some places, and probably will be for a long time. The surplus ammo is not great, but super cheap fun, and investing in reloading equipment or buying really good ammo will improve the performance. They have been proven in many ways, including the world's great Russian and Finnish snipers, who used the Mosin. You can't argue with hundreds of kills guys like Zaytsev produced (over 200), with one Russian sniper racking up 500 kills, and a Finn who scored 505 kills with a Mosin, and he was the highest scoring sniper of any war. One female Red sniper had over 300 kills.
Now, off to have some vodka :) Or at least a microbrew.
Dane
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I bought my SkS to throw behind the trucks seat for Coyotes and Varmints, where I would hate to to abuse one of my good rifles like this.I've bought them for 69.95 but not anymore ,I believe the price has proved them,I gave 300.00 for my last one(scoped)It is made close to the AK47 what is considered the best military rilfle rifle every made,but my opinion would be the M 1 Garand , The Sks has a loose mechanism and the reason you never have one to jam.I bought a new Rem.7400 and it jammed ever time I shot it.To each his own..Imo
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Dane;
Mosins didn't outgun Remingtons or Winchester Model 70's in Vietnam. Also had nothing to do with the outcome. Somebody called off the B-52's.
For a good 100-150 yard gun I'd buy a good Winchester or Marlin lever action 30-30. Killed an awful lot of big game animals in North America and they have always been cheap.
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For a good 100-150 yard gun I'd buy a good Winchester or Marlin lever action 30-30. Killed an awful lot of big game animals in North America and they have always been cheap.
winchester modle 94 30-30 hanging over my bed. ;D love it and wouldnt trade it for anything. its just nice to carry. but i just guess i have a thing for the old ugly mosins. i like the round, the weight, the length, the accuracy, and the availability. ;D
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There are so many great calibers out there today that I don't know where to start. For me it sure wouldn't be with any assault rifle though. They were made to lay down a suppressive fire not for accuracy. I would take a bolt action gun over any other. But for me a 100 yard shot with a rifle is close quarters. I did find the solution to my caliber dilema though, I bought one of everything, in Remington model 700 of course. ;)
As for the Mosin's being outgunned in Nam by Remingtons...how did all that end?
The result was political and had more to do with not being able to distinguish civilian vs combatant than it did with either gun.
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I bought my 30/30 Marlin at a pawn shop during the early summer when the demand for long guns is down. Paid $160 with a scope and sling. It has a few dings but with the newer ammo it's a 175 yard gun. Does not replace my Model 70 Sporter 30/06 but the Marlin is a good light weight gun to hump here in the NC mountains.
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The Moisin Nagant is a rough, and tumble rifle. It had to be, because the Russians were not gentle with anything. It has some flaws, like stock comb, sloppiness etc. But it was made for Russia, and the fine Mauser's, just locked up in the winter, while the sloppy nagants, and ppsh's just kept on firing. the Germans even had to keep blow torches near the mg34's, and mg42' machine guns to keep them firing when they froze when not being fired. They had to heat the mechanisms. The Russian winters were so cold that the Germans lost more men to the cold, than to bullets. They litterally had frost bite of the rectums when they releived themselves! The T34 was hands down the top tank of WW11. The Panzer's, would have made it ok, if they had the wide tracks of the T34's. But they didn't and they sunk in the melting per ma frost areas. There are pictures of Panzer's up to the turret in mud. You can take the existing bolt out, and remove the internal parts, and clamp it in a vice, and heat it with a welding torch, and bend it down to the angle you want. Then sand, and blue the whole bolt handle. You can twist it, or just bend it. You can grind out the top part of the bolt knob, to give it a little customizing. As for the old finish on the stock, remove it, and coat it with oven cleaner, and let it sit, for a half hour or so, and then hose it off, and then wipe it down, and repeat if necessary, and you will have nice wood to stain and finish to your liking. I prefer the 03-A3. I have three of them. I also have an M1 garrand. The 30-06 will take any North American Game. You can load up to 220 grain bullets, and down to 110 grain bullets. It is very adaptable to various types of shooting. I kick myself in the A&& for not getting a Ruger stainless in 30-06, with laminated stock, when I was at a gun show in Billings, Montana, for $180.00. And there were a couple of them at different tables, for the same price !! But I was tight on a budget, but I still could have gotten them. So I will keep an eye out for them when I go back in April. The Brittish Mark III's and IV's Cal. 303, are excellent rifles. Smooth as butter. As for the SKS, I have a Chi Com SKS, that is VERY accurate, and reliable, that my brother brought back from Nam. I love it. It is heavy, but it shoots very well! You can get soft point ammo for it. It only comes in 123 grain bullets, and is just under the 30-30 in ballistics, of the 150 grain 30-30 bullets. But....you can load it with a 150 grain bullet, if you reload. Recurve if you are able to hit clay pigeons at a 100yds, why bother with a scope, unless you just want it for looks, and possibly for low light conditions.
Check out your gunshows, and see what is available. We still have a lot of Nagants available down here. Also if you go to www.sportsmansguide, you can get an insert for the 303, and 7.62 rimmed, that will allow you to shoot .32 pistol rounds in it. The 30-30, has and is still taking more game in North America, than any other rifle. I have two Marlin lever rifles in 45-70 that I absolutely love! Very accurate. Good luck in your search, and keep us updated on your hunt.
Wayne
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I also own an almost new Russian SKS that I have been resisting the urge to customize. The SKS groups pretty good at 75 yards. My go to survival guns are a little Savage .22/.410 over and under that I bought at a garage sale for $50 and my Model 12 that I have had for 49 years. Can't have enough guns!!!!
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http://www.mouseguns.com/compare.htm
Here's a good comparison article I found that reviews the aspects of the AR-15, AK-47, and Mosin Nagant.
Warning, put down any beverages before clicking the link. Any spewed beverage onto monitors or keyboards is the sole responsibility of the clicker and this poster assumes no responsibility for what may incur.
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amen!! for the money and accuracy the mosin is just hard to beat.i have a nice scout type mauser ( turk) shoots well but will not stay with the mosin.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2duvva0.jpg)
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Grunt, my little squirrel gun is an old 410/22, O/U. It has a bakalite stock and is a tack driver.
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I really like the fact that you can break the 22/.410 down into three pieces to stash it.