Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kegan on May 12, 2007, 02:04:36 pm
-
Well, I just finnished my new bow. Best one yet! A red oak flatbow with wide limbs and deep handle, broken in some during tiller to keep most of it's weight and pulling around 63# at 72" long. I went to test it this morning though, and made a woderful discovery: it shoots better than a glass laminated bow! Smooth, quick, accurate, and quiet, it completely out-shot a glass bow of similiar weight on both moving and stationary targets. And, considering that the wood isn't considered in the hightest ranks of bow woods, I just keep coming back to few questions: why fiberglass? New longbows produce so much more handshock, the new longs and especially recurves are very noisy, and so expensive and now the prices are getting higher.
-
Kegan, I love stories like this, you obviously designed the bow properly, skillfully executed the design and netted the results. Can you give us some details of the bow? How long is the handle and fades section. I figured about 23" oz.
-
Some folks believe that modern inventions must be better than ancient technology. ??? Bow builders of glass bows can use a formula to produce the same bow over and over again with very similar results and to accomplish weight and draw changes they revert back to the formula, make some slight changes and BINGO! they have it. We can blame Henry Ford for the mass production revolution.
Also bowyers of glass bows can add one type of wood veneer or another plus some fancy wood joinery to make their bows very beautiful and John Q. Public eats that up. Go to one of the glass bow sites. When someone shows off their new bow, they show the riser with all it's fancy joinery and tropical woods and the wood veneer in the limbs but very rarely shows a full draw pic, the braced profile or unbraced profile. To them it doesn't matter as long as it looks good. ???
Why would anyone pay $1000 to $2000 for a bow in the first place. . So they can show it off and say they paid that for it. I guess they think that makes it a better bow. All bows are inherently accurate. Different handle types are more comfortable than others for folks so they will be able to shoot one better than the other but that is them, not the bow. Both of the custom bows I bought were the bottom of the line for that particular bowyer. Basically the same as their others but without all the fluff...and the fluff is where the extra costs comes from.
At 20 yards, a well placed arrow with a scary sharp broad head will kill an animal just as quickly and humanely no matter what the arrow delivery system is. Whether it is a $2000 Widow or a simple stick and string. Give me a simple stick and string any day!!! ;) I never was one for fluff!..fuzz maybe ;D but not fluff! Pat
-
Badger: The bow was 72" long with 2" wide limbs to past mid-limb where it tapers to 3/8" pin nocks. It tapers from around 3/4" thick at the fades (which are each about 4") to 3/8" at the tips. The handle is 5" with a leather grip and strike plate. The bottom limb is slightly stiffer than the top limb but has an over-all eliptical tiller. It draws about 63# at 28".
Pat B: Makes sense- the more I think about it the more you seem exactly right- fluff rules the market. I guess people just want to pay more? Oh well. It's their loss- they don't get half of the fun that comes with being primitve. Or fuzzy ;D
-
I reckon that's why they deleted a thousand-dollar-glassbow-bashing thread I started at the Leatherwall some time ago.......it was all in fun as far as I was concerned but I suppose they didn't take it that way. Darn those fellers get uptight when you make fun of 'em for spending that much money.
...I can only assume they'd get even more uptight if someone was to say a wood bow would outshoot their custom glass bow,,,,but considering I don't visit there any more I'll leave it to speculation.
-
In my defense, I bought my fancy bows used. 8)
-
Pat, you sweet talker you! I love it when you go on a rant. Feels good ha? Jawge
-
Amen brother!
-
I kind of enjoy rants here and there myself, they never fail to put a smile on my face. Steve
-
...and I hadn't even had 4 mugs of coffee yet! ;D Pat
-
In fairness, when glass bowyers put their mind to it, they exceed natural materials by a good measure. It's a good feeling though, to make a bow that out performs a glass one. It's more difficult to outlclass them in terms of consistancy, durability and longevity though. Fiberglass, in terms working properties, exceeds wood by a good measure. It's no wonder master craftsmen prefer it for their work. I tend to value a bow differenty, more in terms of what I got out of the project as a bowyer, other than a finished bow. Because honestly and realistically, other materials are superior to all wood in nearly every regard. But nothing can compare to the satisifaction and novelty of crafting a good character bow.
-
Just had my first mug of coffee and enjoying this already ;D
Pete
-
Very well put David, I am going up against some glass and carbon fiber bows in a couple of weeks in a raw speed contest. The bow is right on the verge of catastrafic failure, LOL. I believe I will hold my own and survive the 6 shots but still cannot compare to these bows as they will be expected to last for years and be pulled to full draw and held for extended periods etc. But it is fun trying. Steve
-
David, I know what you say is true but I love the way Pat expressed his thoughts. :)
-
DCM, ok so master craftsmen don't use wood? LOL. I feel a rant coming on. Pat? :) Jawge
-
I think you hit the nail on the head, Pat-gadgetry has become a cultural thing. People these days are so inundated by ads, commercial propaganda, and hunting shows that are thinly disguised half-hour advertisements that they think The Latest Thing has to be better, especially if it costs more. I get a big chuckle out of the compound shooting guys I know that killed three deer with their rig last year, but wouldn't think about hunting with it this year, because Jackie Bushman told them that it's obsolete now, and they must get the new model to stand a chance of killing a deer this year lol. The only real advantage I can see in a glass bow is that it can stay braced forever without killing it, but then, you can't kill something that isn't alive to begin with. Wooden bows are alive, you can feel it. Glass is inanimate and dead, and that makes a big difference to me.
-
I agree with every thing thats been said, with the exception of Davids "master craftsmen" remark....lol.....come on Dave! :P
-
And then there's camo. Can't kill a deer without it, and can't get a decent set for under $300. No wonder so many people lament not having the funds to go on a hunt in Alaska ::)
Stan
-
I would not consider a person that can assemble a glass bow as a master craftsman. If he made the glass fibers from sand and blended the resin from it's components and then designed and executed the assembly and all the finish work himself, them maybe I would consider him a "master" craftsman. To me, someone that can take a piece of wood from the tree and craft a successful wood bow is closer to a craftsman than the person that assembles a bow from the components and an already calculated formula. I know a few glass bow builders that do their own design work, cut and grind their own laminations and meticulously assemble and shape the finished bow with their own hands. These guys more closely resemble craftsmen than the "pop out" bow bowyers. Pat
ps. How bout that Jawge (love my Sunday morning caffeine buzzzzzz :o)
-
I have a problem here ! Can't kill a deer without camo ? Cmon, give me a break. Sure Stan M said it with tongue in cheek ::) $300 for camo-whoa ! :o......bob ;D
-
I have a problem here ! Can't kill a deer without camo ? Cmon, give me a break. Sure Stan M said it with tongue in cheek ::) $300 for camo-whoa ! :o......bob ;D
I think it is kinda funny that someone mentioned camo- I have turned two compounders onto bow building 'cause they spent 75% of their "hunting allowance" on new camo and scent killers. But they still smash through the woods with heavy soled boots to metal stands on the edges of feilds every day :-\
-
Not bad, Pat. After all it is Sunday and Mother's Day. Frankly, DCM, remark your was pretty off base, I believe. But you are entitled to your opinion. Don't know where you pulled that one from but I could speculate. LOL. A very strange remark considering I would be inclined to call you a master craftsman. :) Jawge
-
Yes, Bob, tongue was firmly planted in cheek :P I was just looking through the Cabela's Archery catalog a couple of days ago and noticed that the ScentBlocker Dream Season Series Jacket went for $169.95 ($189.95 if you're a big fella). Pants go for $159.95 ($175.95 for 2XL). Now tack on $29.95 for gloves and another $19.95 for a headcover and you may stand a chance against the deer :D
Not knockin' it, if a guys got the cash to spend (I don't), go for it. I do get tickled when I see a show and whoever is hunting says you've "gotta have it" or you won't shoot deer, though.
Stan
-
The shows I like are when the host is in full scent lock camo with grease paint on his face and sitting in an elevated blind 100 yards from his quarry. ;D Pat
-
Yeah, the guys sitting in a fully enclosed treehouse really need those mossy oak underoos :)
-
Hillbilly, I just like the camo underoos because they help to camouflage what I did when I saw that huge buck. :( Maybe I should try the scentlock too. :P Justin
-
Dang, ya'll are just looking for something to jump on. Might consider mixing 2 parts shop time to 1 parts internet next Sunday. Master craftsmen do their thing with any and all materials, including wood, and glass. It's not all mutually exclusive. Acting like Don Assienhimer or OL Adcock or any of a 100 bowyers who have decades in making high quality, high performance bows are not masters at their craft for their choice of materials does not improve one's own craftmanship.
-
David, The materials have nothing to do with craftsmanship. I know glass bowyers that are true master craftsmen. Mike Treadway for one. He cuts his own wood and grinds the lams. He has designed and built some fine bows and unique take down systems. Every bit of work in each of his bows is done by him. I would consider Mike a master craftsman. My point is that I believe a lot of "custom" bows are mass produced. The original designer and builder was probably the master craftsman but eventually his design and techniques are sent to the assembly line to be mass produced. The folks along the assembly line that are putting these bows together aren't necessarily master craftsmen. ;D Look at the quality of wood bows being crafted today. The bowyers may not consider them selves master craftsmen but they definitely have mastered their craft! Taking a piece of wood and crafting a bow, and assembling the components of a glass bow take two different mindsets and sets of techniques...and now days you can have 2 bows that have the same performance. The person that made the self bow is a craftsman. The guy that assembled the components doesn't have to be a craftsman. ::) ;) ;D
. Pat
-
Well said Pat I think I agree with most everything you said right there. I have an appreciation for all different types of traditional bows, be it glass, selfbow or composite. It all takes a different set of skill to bring out an original product. I have seen glass bowyers that custom grind their lams and have spliced veneers under clear glass and all I could say is "whoa I wish I could do that" then they have there custom risers, they are truly works of art that sometimes have many hours of work in them. It is just a different type of art that has some science mixed in, all tough I see some of what Badger is doing and the guys who use the Supertiller and similar computer programs to make all wood bows and need to say that science has met primitive as well. It makes me think of Michelangelo and Di Vici, M would have coaxed the bow out of the wood and Leo would have seen the materials that he had and thought about it and made a piece of art with some science behind it ( I see Mike as being the selfbow guy and Leo as being the glass bow guy). Both are artists but both have a different approach.
To me the highest form of art there is in a bow is an Asiatic horn composite, but that is me we are all different and we are all entitled to our own opinion. Fact of the matter for me is that we all love bows and archery and desire an understanding of how to make and use something that was really truly man kinds first truly efficient hunting tool and weapon. I just imagine sometime how it must have been going from spears and atlatl to bow and arrow, to them it must have been night and day or probably similar to what it was like when guns first became usable to the general masses. It is just the evolution of man to include any materials that we get our hands on to try and make the most powerful or fastest, lightest, prettiest piece that we can. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that is different for each and every one of us. Two me if it has a string and bends I'll probably love it but I will find one piece prettier or more fun than the other
Blake
-
Pat,
We are in complete agreement as far as I can tell so I don't have a lot more to add. You may be able to continue with whatever George and Ryan imagined I said, Maybe they'll follow up this morning. Perhaps add a bit more straw and a nice Fedora hat, present a proper target for folks to flail away at.
George,
Perhaps you should explain to us what you think I said, and where you think I "pulled" it from? I'm particularly interested in that second idea.
-
This is getting good,it reminds me of the Dean Torgus thread. ::)I had the guy from 21st century
long bows at the Classic last year and wanted to shoot the Iron Arrow competion and didn't have a selfbow and had never shot a selfbow so I lent him one of mine and he shot the course with it.When he came back in he told me he had a whole new thought on selfbows,he said he thought they were way below his bows and others that build custom glass bow but that now he knew that wasn't right,the biggest different is you have to take a little more care with them.He was very very surprised and I was very very pleased. :) :)
Pappy
-
I've built both kinds of bows, and seen really nice examples of both glass and selfbows. I think making both kinds of bows is easy. I think making really nice bows of either kind takes an incredible amount of skill.
As others have mentioned, the skill set is different. To me, it's sorta like furniture making. I like making furniture, too. Glass bows would be like making traditional furniture, while selfbows are more like rustic furniture. One of the skills to making a traditional table and set of six chairs is how exactly you can reproduce each chair. It takes a skilled craftsman to turn each leg exactly the same, set the curve of the back exactly the same and make each peice fit flawlessly.
A rustic table and dining chairs, though, is a different animal. The skill is not in its sameness. The skill is in using wood found in nature, through dilligent search, that fits the function for which it is intended. After that, the skill is fitting each peice together so that the chair is as comfortable, or effective, as any traditional piece.
Both are easy to do, neither is easy to do well.
Stan
-
David, some things are best left to the imagination.If I wanted to be clearer I would have been.
Due to the magic of copy and paste we don't have to speculate on what you said. Now don't go trying to make me the bad boy.
"Fiberglass, in terms working properties, exceeds wood by a good measure. It's no wonder master craftsmen prefer it for their work." Let me help you extricate yourself from this quandary. Perhaps this is what you meant to say.
"Fiberglass, in terms (of) working properties, exceeds wood by a good measure. It's no wonder(some) master craftsmen prefer it for their work.
Torges, Baker, David Mims, Marc St Louis, Ryan O'Sullivan, Comstock, Pat, Gordon, et al (forgive me if I left anyone out) to my knowledge prefer wood; thus the insertion of "some" seems to work for me. I should have been a politician. :) Jawge
-
I'd vote for ya Jawge ;) You could start the Primitive Party ;D
I wouldn't mind trying glass somewhere down the road. To me the satisfaction is in making a
functional bow with my own hands. That said I would never pay $500, $1000 or more for a bow.
DanaM
-
George,
"It's no wonder(some) master craftsmen prefer it for their work."
Which distorts the truth to protect a few folks' ignorance or prejudice. If I'd wanted to say that, I would have. In fact, master bowyers who use glass outnumber all wood masters by 20 to 1, at least. But that does not imply, and I did not imply that ALL master craftsmen prefer it for their work as you have suggested. This is where you went astray, and I have to wonder why.
"Don't know where you pulled that one from but I could speculate."
Then you insinuate my idea's aren't my own, as if I were parroting someone elses thoughts, a blind follower. If you want to leave such things to your imagination, please do. But a public forum on the internet is decidedly not your imagination. And I still want to know what you imagine my motivation was, who or what was behind it, now that you've spilled your imagination into the public domain at my expense.
We having fun yet? LOL
-
David, I typed a post much like your original comments, but wisely deleted it before posting. Since this is the primitive archery forum I wouldn't expect your comments to be taken kindly, even though they are techniclaly correct with respect to performance and longevity. If someone wants to think their wood bow is faster than a glass bow, who are we to stand in their way? A lok at the recent TN Classic results should provide some unambiguous data though.
I don't know that more craftsmen are using glass in commercial construction because it is superior in every way. I think thats what the public wants, at least those who don't want wheels on the ends. That and it would be really difficult to produce enough bows of adequate consistency, to fill hundreds of orders.
I don't think Jawge was supposing you were parroting, I think he was saying you pulled it out of your hiney just to be funny.
-
Lennie,
Oh! LOL
I'm not actually serious. I just figured folks were cruising for a flame fest. Somebody has to take a turn in the barrel. Don't tell George. Maybe we can get him all riled up and see some real sparks fly. As regards what bowyers use and the public demands, that doesn't change the reality of it. Master bowyers still prefer glass over wood, regardless of their rationale but I doubt it's because it sucks in comparison. Kinda like them fellas that make fancy drawings on the sidewalk in New York City with chalk, masterpieces, but most artists pick a medium with a little more resilience. I'm actually more like the sidewalk chalk bowyer, but at least I know what I'm doing and take that path with eyes wide open.
-
Dana, thanks. I may need all the friends I can assemble after dismantling DCM's arguements. David, naw I don't thinks so. You object to the word 'some". However...
"But that does not imply, and I did not imply that ALL master craftsmen prefer it for their work as you have suggested. This is where you went astray, and I have to wonder why."
Sure sounds like an implicit "some" there.
"Then you insinuate my idea's aren't my own, as if I were parroting someone elses thoughts, a blind follower."
No, you misunderstand. I do believe these ideas are your own. Where they came from is still the question. I have the same problem sometimes. That's why it gets hard to think when I'm sitting down. LOL.
Yes, this is fun. :)
Jawge
-
Ya right. You are going to get me all riled up. LOL, David. It's even better when I am misunderstood. I told my brother the same thing. He's a computer tech. Just passed a very difficult Novel "administrator's" exam. I told him it was because he just finished his colonoscopy and accompanying prep. Made room for the entry of more knowledge. Jawge
-
In defense of my own methods as far as being primitve go, I have no clue how to use supertiller or any other computer math oriented program. My mass method is basicaly just based on taking bows that took little set and performed well from a variety of different sizes shapes and styles and then finding the link between them which happened to be mass weight of the bows. I am not particularly bright but not stupid either, after you make a few thousand bows you just start to see links and trends that make sense and hold water. I found out the mass method was used by the turks long before i ever came around so it is not really anything new. Working with demensional formulas based on species was just far too inconsistent for me. I have said over and over that by far the best method is to read the wood as you progress in tillering, throw away the tape measure and the scale. I now use the scale primarily to know when I should back off a bit and not ask too much from the wood, others may tend to not ask enough from the wood and use the scale in an opposite manner. I tend to get a little defensive and slightly frustrated when I see my methods being passed off as tecnical when they are really just experience based. I enjoy for much reading the tecnical repaorts even though I understand very little of it. I appreciate seeing our theories being tested and probed and often challenged. right or wrong I hold the belief that bowyering is an ongoing trade that we continue to learn and advance at and much like any trade or craft we advance at a level that is in relation to how much we put into it, wether that be shop time or educating ourselves or a combination of both.
As for wood bows competeing with glass or synthetic materials, I think good wood bows can compete with mediocre glass bows, I think a rare specimen might even be able to match the top glass bows on occassion but never match them in all criteria such as durability, repeatability etc.
As for David Mimms and Jawge, I hold both these guys in the absolute highest esteem and respect for both their skills and dedication to what we are doing here. I have considered DCM a personnal mentor for most of my time on line and have in the last year come back to Jawges way of thinking in many many ways in regards to building good wod bows. Steve
-
Time for the group hug already? And it was just getting good. LOL Ole George 'll be steaming till he wakes from his nap and sees how it has turned.
I learned a ton from George, mostly to be tenacious, to have some courage and drive early on, when all is dark and foreboding, when minor and common missteps which a seasoned hand takes in stride can put a fresh recruit on the deck. And I learned a butt load from Steve, and most of you nare-do-wells that have been around a while. And I continue to learn, from Gary Davis recently a brief tidbit which was so nearly drowned out by my own talking when I should have been listening, that it did not occur to me until I replayed the exchange in my mind some days later. But I don't just accept without question, particularly in light of contradicting experience, and that I think is the tap root of advancing one's craft.
-
So you gonna share the Gary Davis tidbit?
He gave me the "bamboo-backed bow" versus "bow backed with bamboo" speech. There is a difference, according to him.
-
I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yers.
Gary stopped me to say he liked that little character bow I had at Tn Classic. So, like any full of hisself young bowyer would I commenced to yammerin' about one thing or another as if I knew what I was doing. This bow had a whoop-d-do I didn't/couldn't get out completely with heat correction and commented on how the bow shot perdy good despite the extra limb mass. He said, paraphrasing "even thickness for straightening, then uneven thickness for bending." The even thickness for straightening was a clarification, a simplification of common sense crafting which I'd understood rhetorically all along and yet not put into practice in this case. In essense, you need the surrounding wood to use for leverage against the area you want to move.
-
Wow, I didn't know my little post was gonna go this far! Should I feel proud or ashamed ;D?
-
I don't get it. he's saying you needed to leave the area thicker around the whoopdedoo? Or that you needed to straighten it before you thinned it?
Gary was telling me he wrote a letter to the editor about somebody (I forget who, I think it was in TBB) calling a bamboo-backed bow, a bow backed with bamboo. And to top it off they called it a selfbow in the article. His contention was that the correct term is a bamboo-backed bow. A bow backed with bamboo, to his way of thinking, means it is a bow before it gets backed. Which most of your belly slats wouldn't qualify, nor do they have to. It was just Gary being Gary. He's always got something profound to offer. I wish he'd do the net, but there's little chance of that.
-
Kegan,
Yes. LOL On the internet you learn to anticipate the unexpected.
Lennie,
He said I needed to leave the wood all the same thickness when straightening. I was actually still straightening this guy as I was tillering it, essentially too late, and never could get it straight even to the point of popping a nice crack thru it on the belly. It was actually crooked and whoop-d-do in that area. Further he said, when tillering, a whoop-d-do will always be thicker than the surrounding wood to bend evenly. Something about a whoop-d-do being inherently weaker, which I take with a grain of salt. I think if you put enough relfex in the whoop-d-do area might prove more comparable to the surrounding wood. But I have not actually put that to a definitive test.
-
David I tend to be a "v" chaser when tillering a bow, even on the character bows, I can't say I have ever noticed a difference in strength at a whoop de doo, The do sometimes end up a little thicker when tiller is finsihded but have always thought that was just me and not the wood doing that. Steve
-
Though we only met at Mojam a few (?) years ago I consider DCM a friend. We were joking around for Pete's sake. Thanks for the kind words though. LOL. We kinda propelled the thread to new heights, DCM. LOL.:) Jawge
-
When I tiller, as the back dips, I try to get the belly to dip equally. That's what I do but I don't bend wood much. :) Jawge
-
"Wooden bow making seems to attract people who are competent in the gritty material world, but who also have a sense of subterranean magic. The existence of this quality could not be proven in court. It's displayed subtly, by tone rather than words, and in the bows they make. This is, no doubt, why they have rejected the soul-less, uniform factory bow."
Quote from Tim Baker TBB 1 Chapter 3, page 80
This sums it up pretty good for me.
Good job of writing Tim.
DanaM
-
George,
Man you ain't see nothing. As far as flame fests goes this was.... well about like a sparker. I consider you a friend and mentor George. Ain't no tellin the number of wanderers you've brung to the fold.
Wood bowyery ain't about a bow, it's a lifestyle. That's why I hate, although that's too strong a word, comparing a self bow to a glass bow, in terms of cast or whatever. It's like saying Micheal Jordan is a really fast runner. It misses the whole point. The glass bow has it's merits, and master's certainly have had their hand in it. But a glass bow is dead. A wooden bow is alive in every since, moody like a women, high maintanence, but loyal and warm like a dawg. Ideally it enjoys an immortality in memories of the bowyer. I honestly wonder what's become of some of my babies. Any of you nare do wells that's got one let me know, even if they've run off with a cousin or something unsavory like that.
-
Thanks, David. This is a lifestyle. Watching the Sox and fletching arrows. Gotta get ready for a weekend shoot. Ole Jawge needs plenty of arrows. :) Jawge
-
Ya Gary gets all upset about calling a boo backed bow a selfbow,It was a article in PA.hunting
hogs in Tennessee that got him tore up ,the time before was Torgus on same length limbs,he gets intense about that stuff,I tell him to take a deep breath. ;D
Pappy
-
Man I wish I'd got him to tell me his thoughts on Dean's article. Those two are both pretty adamant about their points of view. I've always held Gary's view of same-length limbs, but I think I'm starting to get why a shorter lower limb might be an advantage. Certainly both work just fine though, as a practical matter. And its a luxury to be abel to choose your bottom limb when the bow is nearly finished.
-
You really didn't want to get him started on that one,it wasn't that he doesn't think it is OK to do a longer upper limb it was that Dean said it wasn't OK to do same length.He ranted at LBL last winter for 2 days after I showed him that article and then went home and wrote his own.Dean's
remarks about taking the easy way out got him going for sure.
Pappy
-
;-)
Those two deserve each other. I liked Gary's article. Honestly, from reading his article I would not have known his preference had Lennie not just mentioned it. And he nailed the implications for the two choices, in particular with the diagrams. Having invested a good deal of time in the topic after Dean's article, Gary's seemed very clear and concise and unbiased. Dean's on the other hand.... Had he not miscommunicated the negative tiller aspect, aside from the obvious contentious tone in general, I think his underlying premise has merit. I think context is important too. Dean seems to value very short, heavy draw bows where the asym has a more pronounced impact. Not sure what's Gary's preferences are.
What is LBL Pappy?
-
Pappy, you really didn't want to get him going a little later in the evening when he had a couple of beers in him either. ;) I noticed from talking to him during the morning he really bites his tongue. After dinner when he has put the bows he is working on away he gets a little looser.
As for taking the easy way out. I would say that if Dean learned to do uneven length limbs and has been doing it that way for years. That is the easy way out. That is one of my favorite things about this site. I always learn a different way to do things, or new things to try. By doing things outside my comfort zone, I really learn a lot more. Justin
-
I can attest to Gary's open-minded-ness when it comes to limb length. And to Dean's "my-way-or-the-highway" minded-ness. And since they both make excellent bows, I can only conclude that both ways have merit.
David I think you are spot on with the idea that a bow's design influences how balance is perceived. Very diplomatic of you to come up with a way for both parties to be right.
-
You guys are a riot. LMAO. Yes, some Greeks are pretty stubborn. I have no idea where that personality trait came from. LOL. I just have so many memories of stubborn Greeks. Ma, Dad, my Uncles. God rest them. You think Dean is stubborn and contentious. LOL. Not even close. He's a pussycat. For the record, yes I do have stubborn tendencies myself. Must be genetic. :) Jawge
-
DCM, you are right. The longer the bow the less the need for a shorter lower limb. You're getting pretty wise in your old age. :) Jawge
-
David, I think I thought I knew what you meant...just bustin your rocks pal.... ;)
-
I figured we was square either way Ryan. You making an ABC bow?
-
Maybe, if I get some time. Im working at the archery club every free second I have right now to get ready for our Traditional shoot on memorial day weekend...
-
I pulled mine out of tiller tonight. It ain't as easy as it looks. LOL If I can't salvage this one I probably won't start another. Good luck on your shoot.
-
Jawge I am a little hard headed my self and I ant Greek,I'm a Baggett and they say we are all like that. ;D David LBL is Land between the Lakes a bunch of us meet down there for the week after Christmas for a Trad/Primitive hunt.We have been doing it for 4 years now .Have a bunch come in fro N.Y. and Mic. and Nashville and several of the TwinOaks guys.I think there was 17 of us last year.By the way I have built some short bottom limb bows just not intentionally,needed to cut it down because of a problem,if fact I think I have made some with a shorter upper limb,they all shoot OK. :)
Pappy
-
True Pappy.
Anybody who has ever built anything or done anything physical or practical knows there's always gaping void between theory and practice. I've said many times internet discussions reveal more about the nature of men than the nature of wood bowyery, or whatever topic.
-
Pappy, the Greeks are just plain, tough people- at least the stock I came from. I don't know what happened to me. LOL. Jawge
-
They sent the Ottomans packing in the 17th century and delayed Hitler enough so that the Russians outlasted him in WW2. The length of time they delayed the Germans is amazing. Amazed the Germans too who had nothing but great respect for their adversaries. We owe the Greeks and Balkan area in general a debt of gratitude. Thank God for their stubborn, tough streak. Jawge