Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: jamie on December 18, 2010, 12:34:14 pm
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pulled out a nice piece of georgetown and decided to use it on my journey to cumberland. =) at the moment im not worried about shape . im trying to work toward developing the ridge i need to get the flute to travel. in the first pic there is a flat spot exactly where the flute ended. i couldnt remove it and new the flute would only travel to this point. the other side i had a much better ridge to flute down and was able to get the flute to travel 2/3rds of the point. however when i was cleaning the edge i removed a bit of it. you can still see a remnant of the upper part of the flute in the second pic. this is definetly gonna be a learning experience. the majority of the work on this piece was hammerstone, then antler tines. the flutes were done with an antler billet.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/100_3279.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/100_3278.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/100_3280.jpg)
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Its all about the cross section. it has to be flawless.
lookin good.
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Looks fine to me.
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Nice Jamie! Georgetown is some great rock too!
Russ
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ran into my buddy jeff again yesterday and he showed me a few things im gonna try today. i'll let ya know how it works out. thanks
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Good looking point Jamie. That's almost a textbook Redstone point.
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That is a beauty point. Most of the ancient points I have seen in- situ. Had flutes that seldom traveled past halfway. I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but, I think because of the perfection of all other aspects of the knapping, that it was. I have seen a couple, that the flutes on both sides ended at precisely the same point and looked to be deliberate, Thick,square termination point of the flute, halfway up. ( Just Observation ) You do really nice work. ' Frank
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thanks. frank i was digging through the museum library , overstreet books, and a vault full of artifacts at the museum. the very best of points and blades dont compare to some of the work we do today. doesnt meen it didnt exist but i definetly think we are being overly picky with how pretty our work is. we as flintknappers today try to make every piece perfect or we arent happy with our work. im very guilty of this. i look at jesse, and the others work and then project that to my work and want mine better. nothing wrong with wanting to do better work, but it does push us to possibly ruin some good stone so we can drive that flute to the tip. ;D
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Very true Jamie.
I use modern tools, Copper boppers, diamond files, nail notchers, fluting jigs, ext....... I am making lithic art. I sell my work and its a huge source of income for me.
I can make a usable point or knife with just a hammersone and a antler tine or a piece of fire hardend wood.. but its nothing more then just a useable tool and nothing most collectors would want in there case on display.
How every i am very intrested in how the ancients did it and a dapple in abo experiments from time to time. Jamie i am very interrested in your Journey to cumberland, Keep it up!
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will do bubba. show you my failures of the past two days later ;D
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Remember now we do this as an art form and not for survival. I do agree that its all about how well the flake scars are how thin and staright that sometimes people ..INCLUDING myself forget that each of us vary in our abilities. I feel that I am not in the same ball park as a lot of u guys and it makes me frustrated at time and at times it pushes me to do better! This is why I like PA over PP as over there everyones an expert and I feel embarrassed to show my work over there sometimes. Welll enough said so Jamie lets see ur progress weve been dying to see what ur doing on that piece!
Russ
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Dang that's sweet, Jamie! :)
Everybody on here's gone flute crazy lately. It's really nice to see. Thanks for the pics.
I gotta agree with Hillbilly how that looks like a perfect Redstone type instead of Clovis or Cumberland.
I got one I made out of bamboo a while back, a flute that is. ::) :P
Joe
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thanks joe. russ i still do this more from the caveman aspect. to me its a survival skill . but i like the fact that i get pushed to do better work by being friends with you guys. one last thing, why the hell would you be embarassed of your work!!??
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ok so here are two of my attempts. as a refresher im not looking for finished material at this point. all i have been doing is working at setting up ridges and then fluting. at this point i knew exactly where and how the flutes would end. the biface on the left was 3.5" and the right one 4". the right one had a slight curvature where the flute ended. and i figured it would break the tip off or step the way it did. i used the leg method with an antler billet to run the flutes on the right one. the other side of the larger on the nippli was too high and i basically did end thinning rather than fluting. the smaller point took two great flutes and would of survived if i had not done it free hand. tip support is very important. the smaller point was fluted with a hammer stone. i am getting better with the marginal flaking. im adjusting angle with percussion. any pressure flaking im using palm pressure to stop the flakes midway rather than loose fingers and driving the flakes edge to edge. the next flutes i run will be done with the tip of the biface resting against a log and the edges being supported in my hand.this method was told to me by a very good abo knapper. jeff kalin. he focuses on the primitive more than the art side of knapping just like me and has a million tricks up his sleeve that i plan on getting him to show me. if i dont snap it i think this method will produce the longest flutes i can make. im definetly enjoying the learning process. a lot of it i already knew , it just had to be rewired. also im not wasting rock because all of the broken pieces will be thinned down into points and possibly fluted again. thanks for getting the fires burning jesse.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/013-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/014-1.jpg)
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I have a idea.
What if you got a forked stick and cut some grooves on the inside of the fork. Then press the preform into the fork tip 1st and let the edges on the preform go into the grooves. and lash the forks with raw hide to lock it in. If my thinking is right it should have excellent support on the tip and sides and all thats left is whacking off the flute.
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i'll give it a whack, literally ;D. gonna have to be just the right stick too.
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yea and i bet it could be set up with some sorta abo lever device.
and would be small enough and light enough fora paleo indian to lug around.
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ive been thinking along those same lines. ive been thinking about forked trees for support an somehow tying on a lever device
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i have a idea with a hole in the stick under the fork and a notched piece of wood some lashing and a deer antler.
no idea how to explane i'll have to draw a pic.
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jesse when u get a chance post a cumbie before fluting too. i set up a couple more bifaces but would like to know what i should be fluting.
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hey jesse , ive been on line all morning looking at casting and other lithic sites on cumberland, and youtube watching videos. one video of jeff (clovis knapper) and his jig definetly got my attention. im pretty damn sure i can replicate that jig with just abo tools. hopefully i'll be able to spend some time this week on it and ill give a lot of these ideas a whack. im gonna try and set up a few more bifaces today so i have plenty of em to break....i meen flute. ;D one thing is for sure, after working on the cumbies, i can make a clovis point in my sleep now.
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I have pics of that 8 1/2 inch black and whte nocac cumberland i made. I have befor and after of the flute.
i have no way to shrink the photos at home you have to pm me your e-mail.
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Jamie I know Jeff and that's his rendition of a solberger...he goes a lot of fluting that way but also uses.percussion...but I'm with Jessie I'm willing to bet my house that pressure was used for fluting clean off the tip!!
Russ
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you can look at the flake scares on a old fully fluted cumberland and they have the characteristics of a pressure flute.
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Very good thread, Jamie. I'm watching with great interest. :)
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jesse my email is workswithrock@gmail.com
minor set back today. had a beautiful piece of georgetown ive been using for bifaces for this. went for a hit and it shattered bad. major internal cracks. today i biface pretty much every large piece of whatever i have so i can start setting up material for the cumbies. using everything from johnstone to obsidian. i'll pick up some more chert after christmas.
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I'll send you rock for the experiment. I have enough laying around and I'm picky about what i want to hit on lately.
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damn jesse, thank you. got the pics. that is one hell of cumbie. i'll pm my address to ya. tried to do it with email but it wouldnt send. i'll also make sure to photograph anything i do with jigs. gonna get some of the bifaces set up for fluting today and the rest of the week. next week i'll work on jig. i have som ideas based on the jig i saw on youtube. thanks again.
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so i just reasearched animal life and landscape from 10500 when the cumbies were made. because i wanna use materials that were available then. looks like oak and bone for the jig. yes i have issues!
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Was there a source of antler?
I think bone will splinter
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yeah i think antler was available. at first it didnt appear so. the dating of 10500bp for these cumbies is odd. by 10500 most of the large animal like mastodon and mammoth had died off. caribou moose and elk were around but a point of this size seems more in reference to the big beasts. however deer antler was around at the time of the cumbie so i'll use it.
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yeah my brain is locked into these things. was just looking at yours and im wondering if fluting to the tip was accidental. i see no reason why it should be done or needed to be done. . enquiring minds wanna know. ;D
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You should be getting a big heavy box with sharp edges sticking outa it and mail man blood on it, some time next week ;)
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i likes bloody mailmen with bad backs! =>
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:) ;) :D
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Or, how about a small stick just narrower than the projectile with a notch about an inch deep with the point inserted to the bottom and then bound tightly with wet rawhide. Easy to make and ultimately portable. The stick acts as a splint supporting the faces of the projectile point and the rawhide supports the sides while the tip is supported by the bottom of the notch.
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Xin,
The only issue with that would be that the face were the flute is to be removed would also be bound, and the would prevent the flute from coming off cleanly.
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10-4 Forgot a cumberland goes almost to the point. Maybe it would work on a clovis that only goes one third of the point.
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tried supporting the tip on a log and striking the nipple.it has promise buti got the same flutes as i have been getting. again i knew where they would break off by imperfections in the ridge. i think the toughest part of this is going to be getting the ridge perfect.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/005-13.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/003-18.jpg)
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How about the forked stick idea, only taking a straight stick, and putting a notch in it, and then putting the point in that notch, and then taking two sticks, with straight grooves on one side, and putting those on the edges, and then lashing, and or gluing the sticks to the main stick, with the point in it. ? ;) Just a thought, if you can't find the "right" forked stick, make one. ;D I just wish I could make a blade like that, never mind the cumberland, or any particular style. :( That is nice work.
Wayne
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wayne my brain just melted =>
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lol
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;D
This a great thread Jamie, Jesse. Keep up the great work. And Thanks.
It really does seem to make sense the reason the Cumbie flute
travels to the end of the point would be because it is a "pressure" driven flake.
Where as, from the looks of what you are doing, the Clovis type flutes are/were percussion driven.
It is very hard to imagine a Cumbie flute percussion driven.
But I'll be watching, and learning,
Thanks again guys,
Joe
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Jamie Ive done it with percussion but fooling around I bopped the tip as a nipple as well as the base! It works that way! basically making a rectangle preform making nipples at both ends and striking afterwards finish with pressure flaking... I might not be the best out there but perhaps I might have found the way or one way!!!
Russ
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i agree russ. ive fluted from both ends too. there are artifacts that show fluting from both ends too. but theres a 7" cumberland found in a clay bank in kentucky that is fluted from base to tip on one side and base to almost tip on the other. i have a good idea of where im gonna start as far as jigs go. i just need to find the time. everytime i go to make the jig another question pops up in my head. ;D
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Cool thread,looking forward to seeing the final out come. :)
Pappy
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Hey brother let me know if u need any info I use a simple leverage jig called the guillotine jig as simple as it gets! i CAN GIVE U CLOSE UPS OR SPECS! TTYL or give me a call...Meryy XMAS!
Russ
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progress is being made. ridge development is good and even. i have a half dozen 4.5" blanks ready to flute. waiting on some more info about the climate of 11,500bp. this is what i recieved from an archeologist .
"RE the Cumberland point. Flint and other geologists place CT as all ice-free by 11,500 BC, with the following animals supported by the vegetation for the next 2000 years: mastodon, mammoth, horse, giant beaver, giant ground sloth, moose‑elk, caribou, musk ox, and elk. The Ivory Pond mastodon in the Housatonic drainage (I think western MA) has two radiocarbon dates - one from bone and one from white spruce cones found with the animal— 9490 B.C. ±655 years and 9680 B.C. ±470 years, respectively. By 8200 BC the Templeton site in Washington, CT had oak charcoal, indicating a mixed deciduous-coniferous forest, which likely supported deer. Caribou bones have been found in Paleo contexts in MA (probably wood caribou). Elk bones were found in Woodruff Cave overlooking Lake Waramaug, indicating Paleo peoples hunted elk in CT as well."
im basing everything im doing on the cumberland-barnes lithics. rather than the tennessee/kentucky cumberland. also every archeologist ive spoke with agrees with jesse that indirect pressure (ie. a jig) was used to flute these.
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Very cool info Jamie.
I'm sure with enough trial and error we can figer this out.
When it warms up some I'll mess around with some abo jig ideas i have.
I think the #1 key is: we know the paleo Indians were hunter gathers and roamed the land. And a large cumbersome jig would not be practical.
Maybe would carry the key components with them and improvise on what else was need at the time of use.
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piece of burlington and georgetown. 4 1/4" long. both had decent ridges. both were fluted using an antler punch and a moose billet. the burlington had a fracture running on the opposite side of the flute so i decided to flute the one good side. stayed together after fluting then broke immediately when i started setting up the second nipple. the smaller flute on the george town was my fault. nipple could of been preapered more. i think the punch method has the ability to produce very long flutes. even to the tip . not sure how it would work on some of jesse's longer cumberlands. these flutes would of run much further i believe if i wasnt holding the biface and punch at the same time. im going to try and put the biface in a primitive locking device, like a split sapling, to hold it . then use the punch and see how far i can get the flute to travel.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/002-23.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/001-23.jpg)
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Cool Jamie!
Ill sometime hold the preform with my feet, pressing the tip into a small piece of wood, and flute erm with a punch. My punch flutes looked allot like the ones on the burlington piece. deep flutes that end in a deep hinge.
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i think that burlington piece would of gone clean to the tip but i ran a thinning flake at the tip and it went to deep. the flute ended right where the thinning flake was.
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8 bifaces made, 2 ready for fluting. gonna work on jig today. simple clamping device for for punch method. see how that goes. then i'll work on primitive solenberger jig if punch and clamp dont produce results.
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Jamie:
I heard, A long time ago, that some of the archaeologist thought that a lump of very stiff clay may have been used to hold the point while it is fluted.
The basic jest of it is that you pack the clay around the point with the base exposed so you can hit it.
Dont know it there is any thing to this line of thought or not. Just passing the thought along.
Something else to rattle around in your head. ;D
David
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ive used earth on a clovis flute and it helps me get a good step termination. now that im working on a full flute i can get that freehand. i think the earth method would hinder the full flute. definetly a good thought though. i tried the punch method with the blank in a primitive clamp and got better results. still no full flute though and the same wavy termination. gonna try one more and then start the jig.
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Primitive clamp and chest crutch like thing might work.
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ill try that next
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jess i see what you mean by flawless ridge and also flawless stone
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haha yea.
pm sent.
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im on to something big. needs stabilizing. at first i thought it was an epic failure till i read the scars. very simple to make with natural materials. only thing that would be needed in hand is cordage and two small pieces of antler for anvils. i really think this can work.
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I'm exited :)
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Awesome determination and drive! I'm really engaged in this thread and the outcome of this fine experiment.
Thanks, Tracy
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thanks tracy its definetly a journey ;D
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sticking with this method. broke todays piece but produced very long flutes. break occured at weak point in ridge. need to stick to 2 to 1 ratio and get better ridge development. need to work on anvils too.
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Jamie you also need slight convexity from the base to the tip.
ie. the base and tip need to be a little thinner the the mid section pre flute.
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this thread is awsome. i suck at fluting.
keep it comming
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good day today. able to drive some beautiful flutes with the sapling jigs. still bugs to work out. having a tough time finishing a point becasuse of a number of reasons. i think , like jesse said. a point of this time needs a stone with a very high silica rate. however at this point even the broken pieces are teaching me . i'll get pics up tomorrow of the jig and the fluteing that has been done. i have high hopes for this technique and came up with another idea using bone that i want to try. till then i'll be bifacing. peace
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these are the pieces that have run through the jig. all have faults but im impressed with this set and think with fine tuning of everything i can flute a 5 inch cumberland to the tip. at the moment shape is still of no concern. im more interested in reading the flute after each one has been done . also what type of stone likes what. i.e. its still an experiment. , i'll worry about "pretty" later. the first piece of novaculite on left was the first piece to go through the kig. the jig wasnt stable and the piece rolled after i struck lever. running a flute down the left side about 3.5". at first i thought it was a failure untill i realised how far it traveled and through the fractures and steps it traveled. the second piece is george town . nipple and ridge where very good and only pressure was used on the first side. excellnt 3.25" flute. it broke in the jig when i applied to much force. think the nipple needed to be better. last piece of novaculite on right stayed together and will be left as is. flutes good on both sides . there are two fractures in it and i think if i tried to clean it up it will break. also fractured the tip while doing the second flute. this piece was done with pressure only.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/001-24.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/003-19.jpg)
the next two pieces are burlington. large and thick. 4.25" flutes. big one snapped when i struck lever. the thinner piece was all pressure and im going to clean it up some and drive a flute back from the tip . then if it stays together ill flute other side.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/004-16.jpg)
one thing i found yesterday is that the width of the flute is more affected by nipple size . a narrow nipple will drive a thinner flute if ridge development is good. still need to refine all techniques. i'll take pics of jig today and try to take a video this weekend of how im using it so jesse can offer some advice to refinement. gonna do some more chipping before i have to go plow away the snow. peace
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Looks Very good Jamie!
Yes your nipple has to be just right. I dress mine up with a horse shoe nail notcher.
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I was looking online and seen this on ebay sell as a old cumberland.
Its not broke like they say, its just not finished. I have some look allot like this just after fluting.
Freekin cool, Its good to know i make them the same way they did.
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other pics of old cumberland preform
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Jamie, notice the whats left of the cross section in the last photo.
I'd say its flawless ;)
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awesome awesome awesome. that is exactly what i needed. that first photo looks like there is gonna be a two ended flute
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I'v never seen a two ended flute.
I dont think thats a nipple for a flute. Looks like its just the apex of the cross section left over from were the flut on the other side rolled off the tip.
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Is there a possibility that you could flute from the tip also? Then finish the point? Or will it dive in at the other flute and break the point? I dont know anything about fluting just thought I would ask.
Tell
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i can see that in the second pic jesse. should of looked better. =)
you can flute from both ends i have a couple pieces that i fluted from both ends. usually its just for thinning though.
heres probably my best looking barnes style yet. still not reaching the tip and the symetry aint great. the side with the thicker flute surprised me cause i really didnt think it would travel that far cause the ridge was really flat. all hammerstone and then built the ridge up with various antler pressure flakers.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/002-24.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/001-25.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/coyotebow/knapping/003-20.jpg)
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There U go! Cool!!!
Russ
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You could flut from the tip to the base, but Its wold be a risk because if you did not run the flute off the base you would ruin the point.
Jamie thats amazing for all abo!
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thanks guys. im gonna nail this.
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That's a great looking point, Jamie. Way better than I could ever do,
but I know for you it means You're Almost There!
Joe
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thanks joe. just plowed for 24 hrs during the blizzard. all rested up and have most of the day free so i'll be chipping away all day
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snow finally let up and ive been bifacing again. still trying to get the ridge right. have a couple of 4" pieces that are ready to flute so im gonna give it a whirl again this week.
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I have the base of a real cumberland. Josh Wolf gave it to me to show and tell for a while then i have to give it back to him.
Whats cool is there only setting up and fluting one face at a time and i don't think there setting up a nipple. The base of the one i have broke when fluting but looks like all they did was raise the edge on the base to set up a plate form and used some sorta pressure jig to pop the flute.
I'll try to post some photos of it this week sometime.
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looking forward to seeing that.
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Here is the unfinished cumberland base.
I think it broke when fluting and then broke again. The rock is KY Blue, the same KY blue i knap. this is how it looks with 10,000 year patina :)
notice how the un-fluted side dose not have a ridge yet.
Remember what i was telling you about that Jamie :)
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very cool. odd break for a fluting break.
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Thats not a fluting brake.
I think it broke while fluting because at the stage its at it knapped up to the removal of the 1st flut and then the knapper stopped.
How ever the brake we are seeing here is not from fluting. i think it broke again sometime over the last 10,000 years or maybe the knapper had anger issues :D
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was thinking anger break too =>
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I read "nipple preparation" in a clean way, can someone explain how you prepare a nipple to strike or can you show a picture of what this looks like before you hit the prepared site. Any help would be great thanks.
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i'll try and post some pics pics later bud. gotta get some sleep. sooooooooooooo muuuuuuch snooooooooooowwwwwww
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ok sound great. I have been learning to reduce and wanted to try and set up the nipple you all have been using.
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wicked rut!!!
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took a little time yesterday to modify the jig. had a 5" novaculite piece set up. had a lot of fractures in it but decided to flute it anyway. on the clean side i ran a 4 1/2 " flute. then watched the whole piece shatter when i fluted the other side. jesse, before long i will get this jig to flute a 5-6" cumby. im still having a tough time getting the ridge set up. i know what i need to do. i just cant get myself to stop going for that last thinning flake. ;D this piece of novaculite was definetly set up properly. the ridge work was damn near perfect.
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That sound real exciting. Could you take a photo of the ridge before you shoot the flake and an after shoot. I would really like to see what that looks like.