Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: 1776J on November 22, 2010, 11:30:41 pm
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Hello fellas!
New to the board, but have been lurking now and then and of course reading the magazine from time to time for a little while now.
My question is in regards to the fact that I had bought a U-Finish bow from a very reputable bow company and after having taken out the file marks while sanding it down
and working it up to approx. 100-150 grit sandpaper, a small crack was apparent as the dust from sanding got caught in it.
I noticed it by the time I was using 60 grit, but wanted to know if it was simply a deep scratch that wasn't coming out right away so I moved on and got to about 150 grit
and noticed it was still there.
It is located between two very small knots in the main body of the bow (Bow is made of Osage with a Hickory backing).
The knots are approximately 1/8" in size and pretty much on either side of the bow's body with the crack being pretty much dead center between the two of them.
The crack is approximately 1/4" long, running side to side.
I'm going to try and include a photo of the issue for your fellows.
Is this something I should be concerned with? I'm assuming I should be worried,..heck it's a horizontal crack and it's never been shot!!,.....but being that this is my first bow build (well half a bow build at least!) ::) I am relatively new to bow making so I' learning!
Looking for some knowledgeable guidance/opinions here from fellows who know.
Thanks in advance!!
:)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP2952.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP2951.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP2956.jpg)
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Since you started working on the bow, I don't know if they would accept it as a return, but you will have to contact the dealer to get that worked out.
I can't say for certain that it will fail, but I share you concerns. If I had been making the bow, I would have relegated that piece of osage to the "not likely" pile due to the knots so close to the edge of the bow. I make stave bows from osage and work diligently to get those knots well inside of the edges of the limbs just because they serve to focus stress. I think they may be directly related to the crack on the belly that you see.
As for the gaps in the glue line, again, that's something in my work that I would cull from my work pile. I can't imagine they are healthy. But that is something that the laminate crowd on here should chime in on...KnightD, robustus, you wanna get this one?
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The crack apears to be ca compression fracture or chrysal where the belly wood fibers get crushed. In my experience osage hardly ever gets these chrysals. They will cause set or string follow and mioght eventually cause the bow to fail.There is not much you can do for it except sand it away and take a light weight bow. The knots are very close to the edge, I do not make laminated bows but in a self bow you would leave that section of the limb wide and the wood grain to flow around the knot. It might work on a laminated bow. The glue line looks sloppy to me but might work fine as I am not a laminate man. I am sure better bowyers than I will chime in. You can try for a refund or guarantee or just see where it takes you and learn from it. L.O.L. Kenneth
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JW,...
It's frustrating as the crack was in no way apparent before I started in on the sanding. Only when I got it down from the rough file marks did it show up as it smoothed out. So, without working on it, that crack was
in no way visible. I, of course, being a beginner, wouldn't know any better either way,...(as to the placement of the knots being where they are)?
So, I'm at a total loss here until I'm able to call the fellow I've been in contact with at the company. I'm going to be positive and say that after he sees the issue, and realizes the circumstances surrounding the fact that
the crack was completely invisible until the bow was sanded up, then hopefully this can be remedied with another in better working condition perhaps? ???
I strung the bow a few minutes ago and I could swear that the crack is growing a bit from when I took the photos. You can't see the rest of it as much as you can feel it a bit. In addition there's a very small
fissure running vertically beside the one knot that I just noticed in the light. That one's about 1/8" long vertically.
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The crack apears to be ca compression fracture or chrysal where the belly wood fibers get crushed. In my experience osage hardly ever gets these chrysals. They will cause set or string follow and mioght eventually cause the bow to fail.There is not much you can do for it except sand it away and take a light weight bow. The knots are very close to the edge, I do not make laminated bows but in a self bow you would leave that section of the limb wide and the wood grain to flow around the knot. It might work on a laminated bow. The glue line looks sloppy to me but might work fine as I am not a laminate man. I am sure better bowyers than I will chime in. You can try for a refund or guarantee or just see where it takes you and learn from it. L.O.L. Kenneth
So it's a "ca compression" crack? Hmm,... I'll have to research exactly what that is. So by what you're saying, it's as if this was a bum piece of osage to have worked from when it was picked perhaps? Sad to think that, if that is indeed the case?
Well, in all honesty, "learning from it" isn't in the cards for me really, especially financially.
I mean, the fact is, it's a first try, sure, but at quite a good cost to my pocketbook. We're going to be having our first child soon, in a little over a month and when you're
saving up for the little guy, and your wife says, "hey, it will be your Christmas present..." it's much more than a learning experience...not easy to laugh at unfortunately.
Completely upsetting is more like it.
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I feel your pain, most likely the deeler will replace the wood with another and better piece. Has the bow been tillered? shot in? how long, wide and how many pounds draw at what draw length? I don't know for sure it is a compression fret but it appears to be, I have run into them with hickory but not osage. Never had aa bow die from them. Kenneth
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I feel your pain, most likely the deeler will replace the wood with another and better piece. Has the bow been tillered? shot in? how long, wide and how many pounds draw at what draw length? I don't know for sure it is a compression fret but it appears to be, I have run into them with hickory but not osage. Never had aa bow die from them. Kenneth
Let's hope so!??
So, far I've heard from the fellow and have been told to put in some warm superglue into the crack, then lightly sand it down.
Of course the first thing on my mind was, "why should I be "fixing" a brand new bow I've never shot with??" ???
The bow was tillered, not shot in though. It's an English War Bow/Longbow in style, but on the light side of things, having a 54# draw at 27".
I would have gone with a heavier draw weight but I have a bit of a bum shoulder, nothing to bad though,...hahaha,...at least not yet!
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I keep looking at this area of the bow, examining it under the light and I'm seeing more issues,...feeling that main crack running past where you can see it in the photos. :-\
See notes in photo.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP29513.jpg)
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I'd think a reputable dealer would send you a new glue up after seeing where the frets(compression fracture) are; between two knots and each along the edge of the limb. Is that another knot on the edge by the fret or the same knot? That glue line alone should warrent a new glue up!
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I'd think a reputable dealer would send you a new glue up after seeing where the frets(compression fracture) are; between two knots and each along the edge of the limb. Is that another knot on the edge by the fret or the same knot? That glue line alone should warrent a new glue up!
Yes, what you are seeing is one knot running from side to side,... so yes, basically two knots,... one on the left side,...one on the right.
I was told to warm up some superglue and put it in the crack for some insurance. That just doesn't seem right???.... Superglue a NEW U-Fuinish bow? It ran me upwards of $260 bucks! :o
I may not be a veteran bowyer, but that crack just isn't right!
In reference to the glue lam, I am told via email response to my issues by the owner of the company I'm dealing with this evening that, quote,
"On the lamination seem we use toothing grooves to give the glue something to grab. It cannot be seamless because the glue needs something to grab. A bow joint is not a normal glue up because it has to take a lot of serious punishment each time the bow slams home. that is why we dig deep grooves into both glue surfaces before mating them up. The toothing grooves can oftentimes be seen on the edges. Again if they have air bubbles in them as you are seeing in the picture . just fill them with superglue so that the finish will be even."
I don't have much to go by since I'm new to bow building.
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Thats a bunch of crap!!! That is a bad glue joint. Even with toothed glue surfaces you should not see much of a glue line and NO gaps. Did he tell you which glue he used? Some glues like a toothed surfaces and some prefer smooth surfaces for best performance. The cracks in the center of the knots shouldn't be a problem if you do add a bit of super glue. I do it all the time. Having a knot running through the limb is not acceptable. His price seems quite high too...especially for what he sent you.
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Thats a bunch of crap!!! That is a bad glue joint. Even with toothed glue surfaces you should not see much of a glue line and NO gaps. Did he tell you which glue he used? Some glues like a toothed surfaces and some prefer smooth surfaces for best performance. The cracks in the center of the knots shouldn't be a problem if you do add a bit of super glue. I do it all the time. Having a knot running through the limb is not acceptable. His price seems quite high too...especially for what he sent you.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, but, being cautious and mainly to be a gentleman, I refrained from getting aggravated.
Yes, I too thought they might seem a little high as well.
Wasn't sure though....
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... That glue line alone should warrent a new glue up!
PERIOD!
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Also,...
Would it be easier to adjust and get the right nocking in the right place by using nocked horn tips?
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It's simple really... even without the crack it's no good, the glue line will fail send it back.
Glue itself has no strength, so it shouldn't have any thickness showing at all, there should be virtually no glue line visible, a line like that will certainly fail.
I'd say you have a good eye, and deep down you know both problems are no good, you just wanted us to confirm your worst fears.
Unfortunately with bow making most often your worst fears are right! >:(
Better luck with the next one.
Oh, on the subject of nocks, tip overlays will help, you don't really want to be cutting into the back of the bow with the grooves. Traditional English Longbow horn nocks are not recomended as they are a lot of work and no better than a nice little overlay. A smaller loop on the string might help.
Del
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Where did you get it >:(
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Out of respect for the place and person I've dealt with, I will not say.
He has been a very good guy in all of this thus far, and I believe that he will continue to be so.
I simply wanted some other opinions on what I was seeing as I was working on this bow as the crack was a defect, not man made by myself in the process of working on the bow, but something there before
I ever set hand to it. Something I'd have never seen, and did not see (as it was not visible in the rough stage at which I received it.)
I trust the bowyer will make things right as I move forward with this.
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The response you got does not seem to address the compression crack. Here's the deal on those. Knots are weak areas. Typically, knotted areas should be left wide around the knot. When tillering a knotted area it has to be done so that the knotted area appears a little stiffer than the rest of the limb. This is a wooden backed bow. I don't do them but if I did I wouldn't use a piece with a knot in it either for the backing or the belly. Jawge
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IMO, the glue line is less than acceptable. If I can make seamless glue lines in my 2 years experience with my tools there is no reason for someone in business to put out that kind of poor quality, especially for what you were charged.
The piece of osage used for the back shouldn't have ever been selected for such a product. If the guy is reputable he should have known better than to ship out something like that. I hope it works out for you.
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IMO, the glue line is less than acceptable. If I can make seamless glue lines in my 2 years experience with my tools there is no reason for someone in business to put out that kind of poor quality, especially for what you were charged.
The piece of Osage used for the back shouldn't have ever been selected for such a product. If the guy is reputable he should have known better than to ship out something like that. I hope it works out for you.
agreed, cracks like that are bound to cause breakage, also, that glue line is horrid, even my first glue lines (from a handle and from tips, were not that bad, that is just unacceptable
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You have gotten some excellent responses and opinions so far from some of the best Bowyers on this site...or in the Country for that matter.....I say that whoever you purchased this Bow Blank from is yanking your crank...that Glue Line is not only sub-par....it is pathetic....and would never have left my shop...and one would never think of selling a Blank with a knot running through the width of the Limb like this....my opinion....and its just that....my opinion....quit wasting time on this Bow ...respectfully request a refund...and buy a Blank from James Parker....David Knight...or any of the other fine and respected Bowyers on this Site....you will not be saddened with such a piece of wood as this ....once again this is just my opinion....but for that kind of Money....you could have bought a top notch Bamboo Backed Rocket Launcher...I know I bought one.... :P
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You have stated at least 4 times in this thread alone that you are new and don't really know anything about glue-ups. Did you perhaps mention that to this guy when you bought this piece? If you did, that was mistake #1. It's just like going to a mechanic shop. NEVER tell them you "are new" or "don't know anything about it". Although for your part it only reflects sincere honesty and your desire to be up-front and place your trust in someone, it will set you up to be taken advantage of 90% of the time. In fact, the only time I'll tell somebody I'm dealing with, that I "don't know anything about it", is when I 100% DO know A LOT about it, just to see how they'll try to screw with me, and then I catch them in the act. Try it sometime and you'll see what I mean.
As for the product itself, I second what everyone else has just said. Request a refund. You say the guy is reputable...that means you have a measure of respect for him, so, put him to the test. See if he respects you as a customer. Also, what you paid for this wood was way too much.
-CP
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Well, after a phone call that didn't go as well as I had desperately tried to make it go, I received an email that told me to just send the bow back for a refund.
I'll be sending it out tomorrow as it's to late now today.
I'm trusting him that he will indeed refund me in full... I'm being positive and figuring he will.
Yes, I did mention I was "new" to this,... I only mentioned this after we had actually had some good talks via email and I had felt comfortable mentioning it.
I looked for an English Longbow of Osage, backed with Hickory, and didn't know anyone who was offering anything but this one fellow I saw mentioned in Primitive Archer.
I felt more than comfortable with the company at the time.
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Yeah. Crap can happen to anyone. Well, at least he "says" he'll refund for it. You've done all you can do. Now it's in his hands.
What I said about telling someone your new, I said just as advice from one person to another. When I read what you wrote about your wife saying it could be your Christmas and that you're waiting on a baby and money is tight, it pulled on my heart a little bit. I'm a dad too, and for me, money is still tight. I've heard those same words from my wife before. I really hope the guy gets you your money back. But if he doesn't try talking to the guys on here and see what you might come up with. Most of us have been there before ;)
CP
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Yeah. Crap can happen to anyone. Well, at least he "says" he'll refund for it. You've done all you can do. Now it's in his hands.
What I said about telling someone your new, I said just as advice from one person to another. When I read what you wrote about your wife saying it could be your Christmas and that you're waiting on a baby and money is tight, it pulled on my heart a little bit. I'm a dad too, and for me, money is still tight. I've heard those same words from my wife before. I really hope the guy gets you your money back. But if he doesn't try talking to the guys on here and see what you might come up with. Most of us have been there before ;)
CP
Thanks a million CaCatch,... your kind words are much appreciated!
Again, thank you.
We shall see how this all turns out. (fingers crossed)
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Let me ask you fellas....
As far as an English Longbow in the "D" style belly goes,...(Much like the traditional English "Warbow")...
What would be your recommendations for a noted bowyer that could provide such a bow in a you-finish roughed in stage? (Just email me fellas)
Either in Hickory backed Yew or Hickory backed Osage? Possibly even straight Yew?
Also,....what DVD's would someone recommend for someone wanting to specifically build that style of bow for themselves? Something that would show what type of stave to choose all the way to a finished bow?
(I know there seem to be a vast array of DVD's out there,...so I thought I'd ask before I just started looking and got further confused as far as those go!)
Thanks a million in advance! ;)
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Why not try to make one yourself. It is almost too late this hunting season to learn to shoot well enough to hunt with it and by next season you can have just what you want...and you made it yourself, with a little help from your friends. ;D A few simple tools and the right piece of lumber or the right stave and you are good to go. ;)
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Why not try to make one yourself. It is almost too late this hunting season to learn to shoot well enough to hunt with it and by next season you can have just what you want...and you made it yourself, with a little help from your friends. ;D A few simple tools and the right piece of lumber or the right stave and you are good to go. ;)
Been my thoughts exactly,... what I've truly wanted to do, but was quite unsure of myself to tackle anything yet. Of course give me something to fabricate out of metal and weld, I'm your man! That's another story all together! HA! ;D
I'm curious about building a good English Longbow in the "D" style,... any ideas for DVD's?....etc?
I saw what looks to be a great DVD out of the UK, problem is its pretty expensive AND, worse, I see it's marked "Region 2" which, (unless I'm wrong??) it won't play in our dvd players here in the states! :P
I know I had an issue with an old movie I bought off of ebay a while back,... I missed the fact that it was not for matted for use in our DVD players here in the US!
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The D bow is most likely the easiest bow to build for the tiller profile being so obvious. A truckload of info on it is available here, or in books such as TBB 1, or 'the bend stick', or Hillary Greenland's book. So, never mind the DVD.
Why not get a rod of Rattan for a first, and try to make a D bow from that, just for practice; if it comes out to light in draw, give it to a kid, and start another one. Failure other than coming out under weight is nearly impossible with Rattan...
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Red oak board bows are a good way to start. There's info on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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I've seen some footage of people working Osage and Yew making similar if not the same type of bow I'm looking for. Actually doesn't look to bad at all really.
I suppose I've been stand-offish due to the fact that I did not want to get into doing something I did not fully understand yet.
Not so much that I doubted my skills per say, as years ago I had actually worked in the
art world years ago, for many years, as a Fine Artist/Graphic Designer, yet always kept my hand in metalworking as my father had been a sheet metal man and then became a boilermaker later on. I was around forming metal since I was a little boy in fact.
Of course, having been sick of the politics of the Graphic Design and Art world, that showed me it wasn't based on your talent, but rather, who you knew and how much crap you were willing to take, I dove back into welding and metal working head on.
So, my thoughts in relation to having an "eye" for the form of wood, or sculpting, that shouldn't be a problem at all really. It's more about proper technique, tooling, etc... rather than being able to "see" the wood for what it's doing,
how it's reacting, or forming the wood, etc.
I'll look into some of those books that were suggested to me.
Thanks fellas!
As always,....Much appreciated! ;)
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I just returned a boo backed hickory bow from a guy on ebay with the exact same issues your showing. His description sounded legit and when I asked him a few questions he sounded like he knew what he was talking about, so I suspect he's doing it to make cash, not quality products. The glue line you have there looks very similar to the one on the bow I received lots of gaps between the boo and the back of the board. He told me that the glue lines were cosmetic but that he would accept a return. The boo looked uneven on the parallel sides all the way down too, I don't know if that matters but I told him I would think it throws how the bow tillers off; he said it wouldn't because it was boo and it acted different from hickory. I don't know if that's true or not but I told him I would rather just return it.
I was hoping to get a good example to look at before I tried to glue up a piece of osage with some boo I got from D. Knight, I definitely know what not to do now though :) That's the sort of risk you have to be willing to take though if you buy from places like that, sometimes you win sometimes you lose. I think Pappy or Pat used some fancy greek quote to express the buyer beware tradition and it's sort of sad you have to think that way, but they are right. At this point I'm willing to pay the extra money to not have to worry about the hassle anymore, I've learned my lesson (for now :). Cheap is necessary sometimes, but you always pay for it in the end with extra work on your part or wasting money on a crap product.
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Wow I just saw how much you paid, mine was only about 45 with shipping, but I still returned it without even working on it because of the glue line. For that price I would just do like El D said and get in touch with Mr. Parker or David Knight, I've never dealt with James but David has bow blanks that are less than that and legit. I've seen some of Davids and James blanks made into bows at OJam and they turned out beautiful and deadly quick. I bet they wouldn't mind setting it up for ELB if you ask them, but personally I would just make a flat bow, they don't need to be nearly as long and tend to be more user friendly in my opinion.
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Wow I just saw how much you paid, mine was only about 45 with shipping, but I still returned it without even working on it because of the glue line. For that price I would just do like El D said and get in touch with Mr. Parker or David Knight, I've never dealt with James but David has bow blanks that are less than that and legit. I've seen some of Davids and James blanks made into bows at OJam and they turned out beautiful and deadly quick. I bet they wouldn't mind setting it up for ELB if you ask them, but personally I would just make a flat bow, they don't need to be nearly as long and tend to be more user friendly in my opinion.
If either of these fellows are on here, how would I contact them? Oh wait, I have the contact info for them,... I just found it!
I'm stuck on the "D" style English Longbow with a full arc bend to it. Maybe a flat bow later on,...who knows?? :)
I'll see if either one of the guys would be willing to lend a hand with what I'm looking for.
Much thanks!
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If you are new to bowmaking and want an ELB I would recommend a laminated stave with a lemonwood belly. Lemonwood is standard for ELBs made in the UK, osage is nearly unobtainable here, decent yew is scarce, expensive and not for beginners. The standard ELB today is hickory backed, hardwood core (often purpleheart) and lemonwood belly. Lemonwood is reasonably priced and very easy to work as it has almost no visible grain and in a bow stave should contain no knots. I've never seen a chrysal in a lemonwood belly though I wouldn't say it could never happen! I don't know where you would get this material in the USA but you can buy lemonwood staves and hickory backing strips or ready laminated staves with a hardwood core from most of the professional bowyers in the UK. Typically a lemonwood stave might be around £35, a backing strip about £25 and a ready laminated stave together with drilled horn knocks, string handle wrap etc. maybe £150. You can't go badly wrong with this - the wood is so homogeneous you can make the bow by numbers!
An alternative which I know is available quite cheaply for an ELB in the USA is hickory or bamboo backed ipe stave. Ipe is very cheap here in UK so I use it a lot, but it varies in quality, it can chrysal, is a bit awkward to work and difficult to glue because of its oiliness. None of these things should be a problem with a professionally laminated stave. You really need good quality timber in the belly of an ELB as this is very narrow and the wood there is subject to very high compression stress.
IMHO a professionally made stave should not have a glue line like that whether or not a toothing plane is used. I got a better joint on my first glue up using only hand tools and no previous woodworking experience.
I hope you get your money back and have much better luck next time. Even a good bowyer can make a mistake in assesing a piece of wood but a professional ought to be willing to acknowledge that. Persist with this, making your own bow is hugely satisfying!
Stan
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backgardenbowyer,...
thanks for the info and insight.
I very well "may" go the lemonwood route? I'm looking to hunt with whatever I end up with though,... at a 50-55# draw weight. Not just plunk at targets of course....
Good suggestions like I said,... you have me thinking.
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Well, the bow was shipped back this past week, and according to the postal tracking info the bow was received at its destination address.
As of yet, no refund.
However, I'm taking the high road (so to say) by keeping a positive outlook on it with the mindset that the refund will happen by the start of next week.....???
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It's probably already been said,but I don't like anything about this deal.I'd call the dealer up and tell him he IS going to either exchange it,or refund your money. JMHO God Bless
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i say anyone who called himself an experienced boyer, and was selling his wares, that sold you that bow with knots positioned in a limb like they are was trying to get away with something. just like everything that gets very popular anymore,the crooks and wana make some fast money jerks start filltering in, and i for one can see it happening in primitive archery.
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It's probably already been said,but I don't like anything about this deal.I'd call the dealer up and tell him he IS going to either exchange it,or refund your money. JMHO God Bless
Yes, already did that,... it's strange how you can be as nice as a slice of peach pie, be a gentleman and somehow magically get yelled at!
That should sum it up,... so I'm just waiting now. I was told my money would be "fully refunded."
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Four days after its arrival to its destination for a refund and still nothing.
Maybe later today?
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It now seems that there is no direct reference to me ACTUALLY receiving a, "Full refund" as I was promised by the bowyer.
His response to my asking when would I see a refund coming back to me?
My email to the bowyer:
Good day.
I am writing to ask you when I would see a refund for that Osage bow with the crack in it that you had instructed me to send back for a full refund?
According to the US Post Office's tracking and delivery confirmation, it had arrived at your P.O. Box at 8:38am on Friday, December 5th of last week, so I figured I'd
contact you regarding it.
I thank you for your time.
Have yourself a good week.
Warm Regards,
Response from bowyer, quote,
"There will be an envelope in the mail for you as of this morning. Should be there by tursday or friday outlining the finding on this bow."
Absolutely NO mention that he will stick by his word and provide a full refund as he promised me both over the phone and via email.
This, after the last email I received from this man, which is as follows, quote,
"Your manners are nice, Your words lead to dissapointment. Dont you ever bother me again.
Send that bow back for a full refund and never speak to me again."
That email telling me not to, bother him, was sent in response to this email, when I wrote him after our phone conversation when I got yelled at continuously no matter what I said, how I said it, the tone, words, etc.
Quote...
"I do not know what to say to you but, yet again apologize for upsetting you.
Neither one of us can assume anything about the other person. Good or bad.
Each of us have our issues, however, neither of us should lash out as we have on the phone.
I did not appreciate when you told me that I did not know this or that, as you do not know anything about me. I did not assume anything about you.
However, you cannot lash out at me for apologizing, and actually praising your work and me telling you that I so honestly appreciate your kindness and good nature when you had answered my questions in regards
to bow making, etc.
I was not trying to pity you in regards to what you and I spoke of. I was raised to be compassionate towards others, plain and simple.
I was truly hoping that our phone conversation would have gone much better. I was hoping, and assumed that we would have easily came to an understanding about what I had wrote you and so on. Instead, sadly, it went the other way.
I do wish you a good day today and a good Thanksgiving this year.
I do believe that a man with your knowledge, a successful business and good friends has a lot to be thankful for , as I have a lot to be thankful for myself.
All things are possible with God,.... that is why I called you, that is why I wrote you, that is even why I first contacted you to see about ordering a bow.
As a side note, I want to thank you for your service in the military. I have always honored and respected those who have served. That's the way I was raised,...that's the way I will always be.
So, regardless of anything that was said, I thank you. This is not pity,... this is not me feeling that I should say it, or that it would patch up anything. This is just the way I am. Simple.
I thank you once again for your time.
I will not take any more of it up from you as I'm sure you have a lot to do today. You'll be in my prayers.
Have a good, safe holiday this week.
God Bless.
Warm Regards,"
I am supposed to be getting a, "full refund".....Supposed to be. :(
I don't think I'm off base when I saw that this is absolutely NO way to treat a customer.
I guess this is his Merry Christmas holiday greeting me? :(
This after he knows very well that I am expecting our first child, and that I wasn't even sure if I was going to take a dive and get back into archery, even though I really wanted to for some time now. I gave it up after my great grandfather died years and years ago,... I lost interest after the man who taught me how to shoot passed.
I told the guy that I was mainly busy picking up everything we'll need when our little one comes, but that my wife had told me that it would be my Christmas present from her to me this year,... quite a pricey one at over $250 dollars or more (I can't recall right now, I'm to aggravated).
I wonder if maybe I've made a big mistake with the idea of getting back into archery and hunting at this point?
There have been a good number of really nice people on here thus far that have pretty much told me to keep my chin up with all of this, however, at the rate I'm going, I wonder if I'm better off just saying a big Thank You to those who've been kind and just bidding everyone a good bye from here and the entire archery world.
In other words, to say that though there are a some I have had the pleasure of talking with on here, I feel like I'm waiting for the piano to just fall on my head already! (Looney Tunes cartoon reference,...no matter what, something happens?)
We'll see.
As for this whole matter, I have been nothing but respectable even in the face of being treated like garbage, insulted and cursed at by this bowyer.
In my WILDEST dreams, NEVER would I have imagined that something like this would have happened to me when I decided to work with this bowyer.
I had said that I would not share the identity of this fellow and his company that has treated me like this because even though in the midst of all of this I was treated badly, I would STILL keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best that
I would indeed see this fellow keep his word ( unless it all fell through, then I'd let people know exactly who he was). There is no indication of a promise kept in any way or shape...
Well, this appears that by his words and deeds he is making it clear I will be getting the short end of the stick,...
THIS BOWYER THAT HAS DONE THIS IS, JIM AT RUDDERBOWS.
I do not advise ANYONE to ever deal with this man, unless you would like to run the terrible risk of having the same fate of being treated like this and ripped off as I have been.
However, this is simply my experience and my opinion.
I personally feel that people should be treated better especially when you treat them well yourself to begin with.
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What an a$$hole. Well, sounds like the refund isn't coming, and he just wanted to leave you with absolutely nothing, not even the junk bow, and of course you even paid the shipping on returning the junk bow didn't you? >:( What a piece of work. Well, short of going to see him in person I don't guess there is anything else you can do at this point. But if after this week you don't see a refund, I would make sure everyone I knew was warned not to do business with him, including everyone I knew on PA.
CP
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What an a$$hole. Well, sounds like the refund isn't coming, and he just wanted to leave you with absolutely nothing, not even the junk bow, and of course you even paid the shipping on returning the junk bow didn't you? >:( What a piece of work. Well, short of going to see him in person I don't guess there is anything else you can do at this point. But if after this week you don't see a refund, I would make sure everyone I knew was warned not to do business with him, including everyone I knew on PA.
CP
I agree....
FYI,...this was Jim at Rudderbows.
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Send me your address, I'll glue you up a bamboo backed piece of Ipe, if you aren't in a hurry. Free, to just get the taste out of your mouth.
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Send me your address, I'll glue you up a bamboo backed piece of Ipe, if you aren't in a hurry. Free, to just get the taste out of your mouth.
Really,...I'm speechless actually??!! :o
Thank you, but I hope you don't feel you have to or anything for any reason?? I mean, I MORE than appreciate that and honestly, I did 't quite expect such a kind gesture out of anything that was said or the circumstances!
Wow,... thank you,... really, THANK YOU!
I'll send you my address....
Again, I can only say, thank you. :o
I hope I can return the favor in some way for you in the future.
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You need to start off on this addiction better than you did, only reason,,, kinda,, get's the taste out of my mouth too. Merry Cristmas and wish ya'll the best with the new addition.
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You are the man Eddie.
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If Eddie/Mullet doesn't have a bowstring with it, send me your address and I'll make you a pair of bowstrings to go with the bow. You always need a spare, trust me.!!!
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If Eddie/Mullet doesn't have a bowstring with it, send me your address and I'll make you a pair of bowstrings to go with the bow. You always need a spare, trust me.!!!
Hey, thank you!! :)
That's really appreciated!!!!
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You need to start off on this addiction better than you did, only reason,,, kinda,, get's the taste out of my mouth too. Merry Cristmas and wish ya'll the best with the new addition.
Thanks Eddie,...
Yes indeed,... it's our FIRST so I'm a bit,...well,... simply put,... worried,..freaked out, etc! Fill in the blanks! Haha! :o ;D
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JW, I suck at making bow strings. It'll be 72. Also, kids are highly overated, after the first one they are never easier. ;D ;)
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Right on Eddie and 1776- if you paid with debit, credit, or check, I would contact them and initiate a refund from them. Perhaps Jim is reading this and realizing that potential customers are also reading it!
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Check, mullet, 72" nock to nock. 1776J?...where do I send the strings? Send me your address so I can get them Christmas wrapped.
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Right on Eddie and 1776- if you paid with debit, credit, or check, I would contact them and initiate a refund from them. Perhaps Jim is reading this and realizing that potential customers are also reading it!
Yes, it was in fact paid for with a card through his website.
I'll contact the credit card company tomorrow...maybe something good can come from a bad experience?
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...
THIS BOWYER THAT HAS DONE THIS IS, JIM AT RUDDERBOWS.
...
How come I'm not surprised...? 8) 8) 8)
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Send me your address, I'll glue you up a bamboo backed piece of Ipe, if you aren't in a hurry. Free, to just get the taste out of your mouth.
How come I'm not surprised of this, either...?? ;D ;D ;D
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There are some great people on this site. From my experience everyone that I have met or talked to about primitive archery has been super nice. This has to be the most helpful and polite message board that I visit. Taxidermy.net is another story.
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The 2 knots are actually just 1 knot that transverses the limb in an edge grain board. These compression fracture are quite common in such a case. I have seen Osage develop such fractures as well as IPE and even Yew and it doesn't seem to matter if the knot is hard and solid, the wood is just not as elastic there. When you come across such a piece of wood and you can't place the knot in a non-working part of the bow then just avoid using it.
Maybe Jim will read this and learn something :)
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Still no response to my last email to him asking if he would be keeping his promise of a full refund. I suppose I'll just wait and see what the "letter" he sent will say to me when I receive it in the mail later this week.
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Nice one Eddie, I remember you bailing me out of a situation exactly like this.
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Nice one Eddie, I remember you bailing me out of a situation exactly like this.
"exactly" like this?...
my condolences indeed.
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Rudderbows archery has been in business for over 18 years and very seldom we do get an unhappy customer. That is to be expected. All business's experience this at one time or another. We strive to give the very best we can to our customers. Both in customer service and the highest quality products we can. We have a written policy on our website ( under the Warranty department) that clearly states that all u-finish bows are only under warranty until the customer puts a tool to this item. After that we cannot warrant another persons work. You will find that the majority of your companies out there has the same kind of policy. If they didn't then any unhappy customer will alter the products and then expect a full refund. I am sorry but if companies did give those refunds, the bottom line is that they simply wouldn't be in business for very long.
In our defense the unhappy customer did indeed sand the bow down so far that it had severe hinges on both limb tips. The sever hinges are what caused the crack. Thank you
CEO of Rudderbows Archery
than
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Glad someone is helping you out in this matter 1776. I would have thought that glue line would have been more than enough to warrant a new bow, but I guess it depends on who you're working with. Good luck with the BBI.
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Marc....I guess we were both mistaken....He don't care...and won't learn....
OK....let's say that the Rookie did remove too much wood and makes a hinge...that's easy to believe....we have all done this I am sure.... but that does not have diddly squat to do with the fact that this Stave was doomed from the get-go....
This Stave has some major Glue-Up issues...and that Knot running the width of the Limb is a No-Brainer....this Stave should have never made it past Quality Control....and to blame these ISSUES on a Newly Bowyer is asinine....
I believe the only thing that this Gentleman is guilty of is being Naive....and not seeing this piece of.wood for what it was.....Kindling.....He should have never laid a file or sand paper to it...should have sent it straight back....but He didn't know any better....and I am sure that He believed that someone that has been on business for nearly two decades....would never sell a Substandard Bow Stave.
I have had nothing but good dealings with Jim and his crew....but this fiasco will make me think hard and long before I ever deal with him again.....jmo....I could be wrong.
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Rudderbows archery has been in business for over 18 years and very seldom we do get an unhappy customer. That is to be expected. All business's experience this at one time or another. We strive to give the very best we can to our customers. Both in customer service and the highest quality products we can. We have a written policy on our website ( under the Warranty department) that clearly states that all u-finish bows are only under warranty until the customer puts a tool to this item. After that we cannot warrant another persons work. You will find that the majority of your companies out there has the same kind of policy. If they didn't then any unhappy customer will alter the products and then expect a full refund. I am sorry but if companies did give those refunds, the bottom line is that they simply wouldn't be in business for very long.
In our defense the unhappy customer did indeed sand the bow down so far that it had severe hinges on both limb tips. The sever hinges are what caused the crack. Thank you
CEO of Rudderbows Archery
than
This makes NO SENSE!
At what point did I cause that crack?
At what point would I have strung up a bow AFTER the crack showed up??
I told you right off the bat that as I started sanding it down the crack revealed itself.
So how in the world did I cause the crack?
Unless the bow was strung and had force put on it, any hinging effects wouldn't do anything to it. So, even though I never strung the bow after the crack showed itself, its still MY FAULT????
What am I missing here???
I emailed you SEVERAL times about the bow and its issues, which you blew off. Specifically regarding that crack you told me to put some super glue on it! Then YOU said yourself several times to just send back the bow for a full refund. I have your emails, you and I both know what you promised and now you're trying to throw this in my face that I somehow caused the crack? Well, it is was "hinged" its because you sent it that way,... along with the lousy glue lamination job that beginners on this forum have told me have done a better job doing with their first try!
Everything is fine until someone has a problem with something they bought from you, then you lash out at them and loose your mind. It doesn't matter what I said, how nice I was to you, how much I praised your work, your sense of self, your beliefs, etc. You make promises to people that you have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION OF KEEPING! How could a businessman of 18 years do taht given the circumstances here?
If you truly practiced what you preached, there would have been no issues and you would have given me a refund as you said you would,.... not to mention you would have not given me several nasty, bizarre emails and SCREAMED at me over the phone cutting me off and cursing at me repeatedly!
Anyone doing this should be ashamed of their actions.
I'm taking this up with my credit card company and I'm letting them go after you to get my refund if you refuse to make good on your promise to me to give me a full refund. I kept trusting that you would be a man of your word, over and over again, even in the face of others telling me to do otherwise,....I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and you are simply blowing me off.
You have emailed me and said you'd refund me obviously under false pretentions, thus by doing so, and having me mail the bow back to you, I believe this constitutes possible mail fraud. Not something I would have ever thought would come to when first I ordered this bow from you?
In addition your OWN website reads,
"Warranty
Our goal at Rudderbows is to provide top quality products as well as great customer service and satisfaction.For this reason we are proud to offer a factory replacement warranty .
We will warrant all parts and products produced by Rudderbows against any and all manufacturing defects in quality , material , and workmanship , which affect the satisfactory operations of the products in question. This warranty is limited to the repair or replacement of only those parts determined to be faulty or defective by the manufacturer. Any product in question must be returned to Rudderbows for inspection ."
It was a blatant defect in the wood! Not to mention a defect in the building process by using a piece of wood where the knot runs through the belly from side to side! It's amazing how SO many competent bowyers on this site, well known gentleman who's work and good reputation preceeds them fully agree with that. Everyone,...but yourself? I still cannot understand this?
If things really were as the bowyers says they are this would be a non-issue! You and I know that.
Thanks a lot Jim,...
Merry Christmas to you as well!
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Glad someone is helping you out in this matter 1776. I would have thought that glue line would have been more than enough to warrant a new bow, but I guess it depends on who you're working with. Good luck with the BBI.
I was taught that if you're going to "talk the talk" you ought to, "walk the walk" ?
You can't say one thing and do another.
Jim's last email to me regarding any refund, etc. This is Jim's own words,....
"Your manners are nice, Your words lead to dissapointment. Dont you ever bother me again.
Send that bow back for a full refund and never speak to me again."
Thanks and Pray hard !
Jim and Sherry Boswell
http://Rudderbowsarchery.com
509-968-3051
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Eeeew.....I can almost hear the Thin Ice cracking now....thread lightly....please....I for one don't want to see this Thread getting pulled....I want to be here for the Fat Lady to Sing....
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Two hydrogen atoms meet. One says, "I've lost my electron." The other says "Are you sure?" The first replies, "Yes, I'm positive."
Thought I would try to lighten the dark mood. The transverse knot is bad ju ju on quarter sawn wood. I built a couple Ash bows that had those, and they completely collapsed under stress.
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Eddie
I got a whole new respect for you.
Ronnie
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:-X :-X
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@1776J:
My advise would be to let go; the problem is that our energy flows to where our thoughts are so leave him alone. You will not be able to make this guy admit he's wrong, you will not be able to make him realise he talks different than he acts.
You'll get a stave from mullet, and a string from JW, and here on PA you'll get answers to all your questions.
On top of that, I will precut a pair of tip overlays and mail them to you, and I will help you to mount them as good as I can; that is best to do when the tillering is done. So please get in touch with me when you start your bow!
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@Jim from Rudderbows:
Sir, I have a question.
Let's say I'd buy such a stave from Rudderbows. It comes in the mail, it looks all nice, I start working on it.
Than, after reducing the edges by working out my design I happen to find a gap in the glueline as the one pictured below, would you than STILL go by the hard and cold rule, and not refund the item because I have worked on it??
Some guys here might be interested to hear your answer!
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I'm with you medicine wheel. I've immediately scrapped bows and made firewood for better glue lines than that. The thing about this whole mess is for $240 how many potential customers have now been turned off from using this company. Goodluck 1776, make sure you post pics and ask questions during the process, I'm interested to see the bow as you move along. I'm actually going to attempt my first bamboo glue up here pretty soon.
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I tried to stay out but my fingers just started typing ;D I will say that when I dealt with Jim at rudderbows a few years ago he treated me well. He even sent me a nice hickory board in the mail for free. I'm surprised to hear this and even more shocked at his response.
As for the glue line ----its not pretty but thats how he does them. They are deep groves cut before gluing so sometimes you can see that when they run off on the edge. If you go in a tad it will look solid again. This does not mean the glue joint will fail but in my opinion the grooves are too large which can make it ugly and not the way I do mine either. As for the cracked knot----well in my opinion you should get a refund for that no question. Come on Jim just send the guy a refund. I would think this would be worse for business than loosing a couple bucks on a refund.
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I tried to stay out but my fingers just started typing ;D I will say that when I dealt with Jim at rudderbows a few years ago he treated me well. He even sent me a nice hickory board in the mail for free. I'm surprised to hear this and even more shocked at his response.
As for the glue line ----its not pretty but thats how he does them. They are deep groves cut before gluing so sometimes you can see that when they run off on the edge. If you go in a tad it will look solid again. This does not mean the glue joint will fail but in my opinion the grooves are too large which can make it ugly and not the way I do mine either. As for the cracked knot----well in my opinion you should get a refund for that no question. Come on Jim just send the guy a refund. I would think this would be worse for business than loosing a couple bucks on a refund.
yeah, i believe just from the responses, that a refund would REALLY help thier cause... after all, the longer this goes on, the more people will be turned off on their products, i know i am turned off for now, this has gone on too long; I feel queesy from this whole ordeal... its either jim admits the bow was scrapwood to begin with, or he bites his tongue, something needs to be done if he expects to keep a business going,
i am sorry, just my opinion on the matter
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I have read this thread with some attention and I am flabbergasted.
I have had a considerable amount of glue ups done by Jim from Rudderbows and none failed on the glue line so far.
In fact I tested one to destruction and it failed at 41 inches.
One may or may not like the looks of the glueline but technically they are fine.
None of all of you who posted on this thread can judge if indeed the buyer sanded the bow into destruction. In fact perhaps in the beginning, if one does not have a clue, one should buy a ready made bow. not mess with the wood if you havent got a clue what you are doing. Now it is impossible to see if the pins in the wood would have holded, or would have cracked. Not Jim not the buyer can know now. perhaps even shooting the bow before sanding was a better option.
whatever price agreement was made to buy the bow, it is none of our business.
that brings me to the following impression, apart from one or two, you all act like a pack of wolves smelling blood.
The point where it was about a technical question or sharing knowledge has long been passed.
It is no loger helping anyone. do you really think badmouthing will do convincing and help anyone?
Reading your post you are better at building bows than writing.
but as always, my personal opinion.
I wonder if it will be on this board for long.
best of luck building bows
pooryewaddict.
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Hello for a start...
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Welcome to PA PYA. I see it's your first post. How about sharing some pics of your work.
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Hello Pat B., medicinewheel and others, thank you for your welcome.
In the coming days Ill start a couple of threads for you to see my work. 'till then. '
pooryewaddict.
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I dont agree, pooryewaddict, I think the responses where quite reasonable under the circumstances no-one was overly rude for the sake of it..., I would be well pissed off if I paid that price for a stave with a knot in like that, he deserves his money back, and the seller shouldnt get away with it, I wouldnt sell a stave like that.... just my humble opinion
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I find it a bit weird PYA registered today and came to the rescue of Jim.... :-\
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I find it a bit weird PYA registered today and came to the rescue of Jim.... :-\
Ya Think...... :P
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DejaVu
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I think one could have gotten around that knot by leaving the belly sufficiently proud, but it would have taken an experienced bowyer to recognize that. And that's probably not the kind of person that buys a stave like this. The glue line is ugly but it is hard to know if it is indicative of a serious problem unless until it fails.
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I have read this thread with some attention and I am flabbergasted.
I have had a considerable amount of glue ups done by Jim from Rudderbows and none failed on the glue line so far.
In fact I tested one to destruction and it failed at 41 inches.
One may or may not like the looks of the glueline but technically they are fine.
None of all of you who posted on this thread can judge if indeed the buyer sanded the bow into destruction. In fact perhaps in the beginning, if one does not have a clue, one should buy a ready made bow. not mess with the wood if you havent got a clue what you are doing. Now it is impossible to see if the pins in the wood would have holded, or would have cracked. Not Jim not the buyer can know now. perhaps even shooting the bow before sanding was a better option.
whatever price agreement was made to buy the bow, it is none of our business.
that brings me to the following impression, apart from one or two, you all act like a pack of wolves smelling blood.
The point where it was about a technical question or sharing knowledge has long been passed.
It is no loger helping anyone. do you really think badmouthing will do convincing and help anyone?
Reading your post you are better at building bows than writing.
but as always, my personal opinion.
I wonder if it will be on this board for long.
best of luck building bows
pooryewaddict.
I find it very interesting that you, not knowing myself, what was or not done, by your viewpoint are ready to assume that I may very well have, "sanded it to destruction"???
I see in your a negative person that has settled your sights upon myself, even with the given circumstances that I truly wonder if you really do understand, given your view on this matter?
Your attitude is assumptive and you know nothing at all.....except for maybe what your friend Jim has told you and swayed you to. Its pretty evident from your thoughts this is the case, as exemplified by your own words.
So, by what you say, I "have no clue"? I'd like the crystal ball you have that makes you a good judge of others based upon your vast lack of knowledge of myself.
I didn't see anyone here other than myself while I was sanding it...
In regards to the bow being cracked,.... it was there BEFORE it was sanded,... it simply showed up AS it was being sanded, as the dust from sanding worked its way into the crack. It was defective from before it ever reached me.
Anyone who has worked with wood should be able to easily understand this.
Amazing,... your second post and your strange aggressive mindset with focused cross-hairs upon me sure sounds like the same rude behavior I got from Jim.
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1776J,
HE DOES KNOW YOU. This is getting old, we've seen all of this before. I'll glue up that blank in a day or so. It's easier to just forget it and let it go. Enjoy Christmas. Some people aren't worth the drama or stress.
This should have never even lasted 6 pages, wasn't worth it.
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1776J,
HE DOES KNOW YOU. This is getting old, we've seen all of this before. I'll glue up that blank in a day or so. It's easier to just forget it and let it go. Enjoy Christmas. Some people aren't worth the drama or stress.
This should have never even lasted 6 pages, wasn't worth it.
couldn't agree more, it is a shame it couldnt have been stopped before it got this far
besides this drama, it let a few people's true colors shine through, it showed another great example of how generous some of the people here really are,
iunno, just trying to shed some positive light on this topic after all, optimism is always a good viewpoint (almost always)
let the drama end, let everyone find their peace and let it remain peaceful for a good while, it is all i wish for as of now...
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I remember rudderbows starting up and I know it wasn't 18 years ago. I'm not sure why that lie came up but some of us were on here when he first started spamming the site with his stuff.
Fred Bear practically went bankrupt making good on a line of defective bows so if Jim hardly ever gets complaints he should have little trouble swallowing the losss of this blank which probably cost him about 20 dollars to throw together.
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Don't know how I missed this thread.... :o
1776, welcome to the family.
Eddie, You're a good man!
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Don't know how I missed this thread.... :o
1776, welcome to the family.
Eddie, You're a good man!
NYD,...
Thank you very much sir....your welcome is much appreciated!
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[quote author=mullet link=topic=22441.msg307290#msg307290 date=12
...
HE DOES KNOW YOU. This is getting old, we've seen all of this before. ... Some people aren't worth the drama or stress.
...
[/quote]
I second that.
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...and to all a good night! ;)
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What...??? - I only just got up; it's 6:45 am here... 8) 8) 8)
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I used to do professional magic shows for part of my living. I did. I really dd. LOL. One of my publicity pictures showed a boy in a guillotine. But I never did that in a kid's birthday show only for the larger shows (read more money needed). Anyway, when I got to the kid's party mom said, "Did you bring the guillotine?" I said that I did not. She seemed disappointed. I drove all the way home. Yes, drove back home, put the trick in the car and performed it for that kid's party. In the entertainment business one can't afford bad publicity. There must be a moral there for archery dealers who also can't afford bad publicity in such a small market. But hey I make my own stuff dealers can run their businesses as they see fit. Merry Christmas! I love this time of year when our Lord was born of flesh. :) Jawge
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Jim's reputation just continues to grow and grow...
Thanks, Eddie for helping a new bowyer get started on the right track. Well done.
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Great thread everyone, some truly generous people out there.
Does anyone else find it odd to spend $240 on a stave and then test it until it breaks? I guess there are people out there that actually have money to burn.
Merry Christmas everyone!
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...and to all a good night...again!
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Great thread everyone, some truly generous people out there.
Does anyone else find it odd to spend $240 on a stave and then test it until it breaks? I guess there are people out there that actually have money to burn.
Merry Christmas everyone!
nope... its perfectly normal to throw that kind of money away, i do it all the time lol :P (sarcasm)
good luck on the new bow 1776, hope you have plenty of fun with it, wish ya luck
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Nope. I don't find much that is odd these days. I just expect odd anyway. Tell you what I wouldn't spend $250 on a stave. I'm glad I make my own selfies after I read threads like this. My advice is go to Home Depot and buy a straight grained red oak board, 1776. Don't get a board stave with knots. It will break sooner rather than later. How do I know? Ive probably made more board bows than any one on here. I've been making board bows since '93. EVERY board bow I've tried to make with a knot in it (sometimes you can't see them until you get into the wood) has broken. Board'll cost ya $7. Forget about your U stave. It's not worth it; life is too short. My wife's cousin just died and another one is getting married Sat. It's the good with the bad. You learned an expensive lesson. Jawge
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Well said Georg.
Good night Pat.
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Thank you very much for all of your much appreciated support in all of this.
There are a lot of great fellows on here,... I'm glad I got involved!
Have a VERY Merry Christmas everyone,...
:)
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Have a VERY Merry Christmas everyone,...
:)
And To All A Good Night....At Last............... O:)
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Thanks, Jawge, and Merry Christmas. ;)
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PatB?!?!?!
Can I have a glass of water?
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GOOD NIGHT John Boy!!! >:(
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JW, no! Especially at your age.
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I agree with PAT on the sloppy glue joint.You should get another stave.The small crack I'd just have to shoot it before finishing to see.