Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on May 01, 2007, 03:02:28 pm
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Something I still struggle with and see others struggle with all the time, especially when we are making bows outside our comfort zone when it comes to length or draw weight is when to do the first brace, most I know go by the long string weight reading or more often just by feel but I still sometimes brace them too strong or too close to finished weight to leave ample room for tillering. What methods do you guys us and are you satisfied with them? I find a long string to be not very accurate but helpful, better than nothing. Steve
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I don't go by poundage at all. I just use a long string on a tillering stick until I get a bend that is reasonably smooth and close to the shape of a braced bow. I go with a short string from that point on. The first stringing is at around 4" brace and is as short as possible to get a reading on where to go tiller-wise. Usually don't even need to pull the bow for the first few short-stringings, just quickly judge bend and/or run a credit card along the belly and mark the flat spots.
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Lennie, I have noticed that works fine as long as I am working inh an area i am familar, but when I stretch out over 72" and close to 100# or even 80# I am not as good at judging just because it is not my normal bow I am making. A lot of damage is done to bows on the first brace, a lot of guys don't even realize the bow has been damaged but it really can be a critical step in bow making. Steve
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I think the only adjustment one would make in using my method for a really heavy bow, would be to pull harder on it to get it on the tillering stick (that and use a really beefy tillering stick). Otherwise, pulling a bow with a long string to something aroudn brace height equivalent isn't really going to hurt it. I don't think you are doing a great deal of damage to the bow at a point where you are not bending the bow very far. And in any case, much of that surface wood is going to come off in the tillering process (if you are far from target weight). Most set comes from exceeding the elastic compression limits of the belly wood. Now if all your bend come in just one spot, you can exceed the limit at that spot. But I'm assuming we're doing some floor tillering and eyeballing the taper before we even bother with a string.
But you are correct, there is definitely a comfort zone for poundage. I can tiller a bow in the mid-50's without even using a scale. That seems to be my comfort zone as far as how hard I pull it on the tillering stick, and how I exercise it during final tillering (by hand, no tiler tree).
Luckily for me, I can't pull 100lb and after three hernia surgeries I don't want to try.
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Badger,
I know what you mean. I've always sensed that the first brace is 'the point of no return.' Something that as helped me is to compare readings from finished bows that are similar and then use arithmetic to figure out what the weights should be. If you have a finished bow that is similar to what you want the bow you're building to come out as, you can weigh it with a long string to get an idea of where you should be. Does that make sense? I'm trying to figure this stuff out too.
I think Jim Hamm's chapter of tillering is better than just about everything else out there, but he fails to point out that a bow that is braced too early is going to lose some spring. He seems to advocate stringing as soon as you can--even when the bow will pull full weight at 12" of draw. To me, that's bow abuse. If you want a finished bow of 50# @ 28" and when you brace it, it's drawing 50# @ 12", you are way over-straining your bow. Ideally, a bow shouldn't be stressed past it's intended finished draw weight (as Jim says) or past it's intended finished draw weight for every inch of draw. In the perfect world scenario, if my finished 135# warbow is going to draw 15# @ 2", I wouldn't want to ever push it past that while tillering. Now, does that make sense! According to my reading of the Hamm method (which again, I think was revolutionary) I could string it at a point where it's drawing 135# @ 2" then remove some wood so I could get it to 135# @ 3" and so-forth.
J. D. Duff
PS: I like to see my bows take a little extra set after I've used them for a couple days. To me, this means that my tillering was even more gentle than it needed to be. Am I right on that?
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I long string tiller out to 10 inches. I check weight. When I get good limb movement and target weight or 5# over I string it with the short string. This puts the stave's final potential target weight at 10-15 # over. Plenty of tillering room. It's actually a pretty easy method. LOL. It really does work. I really don't know why everyone doesn't use it or at least try it. May be it's just too easy to use. I really am perplexed. :) Jawge
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If your stave is reflexed by 2 inches long string tiller out to 12 in. I draw 26 in. If you draw 28 long string tiller out to 12. I've made about 150 bows total. 125 with this method. It took me 25 to learn and develop it. "I'm going to get the limbs bending and then string it method" may work ok with osage but it just doesn't make sense to string a 100# stave when you want 50 # at least not with a whitewood. I learned that quickly enough in my early days upon breaking bows at their first bracing. Anyway, to each his own. :) Jawge
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I have to admit, that does sound pretty easy.
J. D. Duff
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I imagine the long string method has to be the best. I do so much by feel I have to force myself to use the long string when I need it. Last several months I have been building all lengths and draw weights and my sense of feel has gone to put from changing bow types so often. Ideally I like my bow at full draw weight at around 21" when I first brace it, 24' or 25" is a little too close for comfort. I do my first brace at a low brace around 4". JD, Once I get it braced I draw it full draw weight every time I excersize it if the tiller is on regardless of the length I am pulling it, doesn't seem to affect it. Steve
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I don't quite understand , that if you have tillered with a long string and it is bending out more than brace height, what diff. does it make when you brace it. Am I missing something here? I'm a real newbie
David
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David, bracing a stave puts a lot off stress on it. It makes sense if you want 50# to only brace a 60-65# stave rather than a 80# stave. Experienced bowyers can sense and evaluate the weight by feel. I've always done it the way i described or at least for the past 125 bows. LOL.Jawge
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Most of the time I'm building hunting-weight bows for myself and the weight they come out at doesn't really matter to me as long as it's within my preferred range. I'm usually shooting for the highest reasonable weight from a particular stave, so I'm aiming for 60-80# and I can feel those weights well enough. Like Badger, my problem is really with very heavy bows where explosions are a real danger and staves can be damaged easily with the high stresses they're under. I'm going to try to learn this long string method.
J. D. Duff
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David, I think you made a fairly legitimate observation. If the bow bends SMOOTHLY to the equivalent of brace height using a long string, then you can short-string it for a short time at a fairly low brace and there is not a lot of difference in stress between that and bending with the long string. Although, the short string puts more stress on the outer limbs so be aware that a bow that looks a bit stiff in the outer limbs is going to show more bend with the short string. But if anything that is more of a reason to go to the short string as soon as you can.
I think Jawge's method works better for new bowyers, and after all they his target audience. Thats because they tend to not know what is meant by a smooth bend or how to gauge it, or they aren't able to get there as easily with the limited knowledge of the use of tools. If you short-string a bow that isn't yet bending smoothly, you can indeed to some irreversible damage. Been there, done that. By sticking with the long string longer, you are essentially babying the bow a little more since you don't leave it bent very long compared to a continuous stress of being braced. Even when I first brace a bow, I don't leave it braced any longer than necessary to run a straightedge down the belly and mark the flat spots.
The disadvantage of sticking with the long string longer, is that like I said you are going to see a different bend when you do string it, and you have less wood left to make adjustments. So I think there is more likelihood of missing weight. But a slightly weaker bow is certianly preferable to a bow with 4" of set or a broken bow.
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Tom Sawyer, your point about different stresses with the short vs the long is good if long stringing is done for a greater distance but again long stringing it to 10 inches really isn't much. LOL. Nothing wrong about babying the infant stave. Cuts down on set. I've used this method for years because it works and is logical giving an empirical way to determine a stave's readiness to be strung. Veterans can use it too.I really didn't develop it for beginners. I developed it for me though I used to be a beginner. :) Jawge
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Tom, you would be surprised at how much a too heavy first brace can affect the outcome of a bow, I got into a bad habit of doing everything by feel. But I think the long string is a far safer way to minimise the stresses on the wood. Like you said though, if it is familair territory you can pretty much build a bow without a scale, I do that fairly often. A 72" bow has a totally different feel than a 60" bow, when floor tillering. Very hard to gage by feel when you are switching around a lot especially with different types and weights of bows. Steve
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No long string for me, can't stand them. I use a homemade press, a sort of imitation compound bow press. Best way to do it in my opinion. I've made enough bows that I know when to throw them on there and get about whatever weight I want at around 20", once I balance the limbs properly. I really don't know why anyone would do it any other way.
dan
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The way I see it. When bracing a bow for the first time if you are aiming for 50# @ 28" and you were to have a first time braced weight of 5# over your final draw weigth then that would give you a finished draw weight of close to 100#. That's figuring a conservative estimate of 3#/" over a 22" power stroke. That's why I don't worry about such things. In anycase pretty well the only time I use a long string is when I'm making a recurve or a very heavy bow.
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Marc, my apologies for not explaining this process well. Here's the scenario. I am still using the long string now. The bow is not strung yet. I am checking weight with my trusty hand held bow scale. When I get target weight or 5# over with the long string at 10 inches for my 26 in. draw that puts the final potential draw weight of the strung stave at 10-15# over. The relationship is there. I've tested it. That's not the question. LOL. :) Jawge
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Dan, I use an almost identical set up on my recurved reflexed bows, I have a crank in the middle that I crank down on the handle with. There is still some guess work involved. I personally don't think enough importance is put on the draw weight at the first bracing. Most of us usually build similar bows as has been mentioned several times allrerady and experience can tell us when, but the big question mark come in when we are using diffeent length bows and different weight bows than what we are used to. I have never met anyone that could accurately guess a draw weight when working unfamilar territory. Steve
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George, is your long string just barely long enough to get over the nocks? Almost like stringing at a brace height of 0? I used one once that was to long and when I strung it I had no weight left to work with. I think it had something to do with the long string making the string angle bad and it started to stack. This made the bow seem heavy until I put a short string on which didn't stack the bow and I was under weight. Maybe you could show us a picture of your long string on a bow at appropriate length. I like the meathod, I just have a hard time if I don't string with a short string soon enough. Justin
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I know Jawge will love this but I use a long string just long enough to go from end to end
and use a tillering stick.I pull it down a inch at a time working out all the kinks as I go.After
I get it down 4 or 5 slots I will take the stick out of the vice with the bow on it and set it
up on a flat surface and look it over and measure the tips off the table and from there on I
will even the limbs until I get the tips about 6/7 in. off the table and about even.Then I go to a low brace about 3 or 4 in. and go to the tillering board. After I get it out to about 10 in. I will go to full brace.I like to get it on the tillering tree
as soon as possible.The real long string really messes me up and I want plenty of weight left when I get it on the tillering tree. :)
Pappy
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Good thread guys, I've had trouble making weight perhaps it was
the long string was to long eh.
DanaM
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Good string, very interesting reading!
I'm doing it like Pappy...we floor tiller to first get the limbs bending constant just shy of the tips. Of course as already discussed, this is by feel from a poundage standpoint, and visual in evening up the limbs. Then going to the tillering board with the long string and as Pappy said, slowly working your way down to a low brace height. We try and leave the bow on the board as short a duration as possible between scrappings, and also stroke the limbs 30 times or so to get the wood to accept the changes from scrapping. We don't pull the limbs past our previous slot on the board when working them. After getting to a low brace we go to the tree, working the limbs between scrappings and never passing what we want the finished weight to be. We then get to final brace height after about 10" to allow the accurate weight to be shown.
I can understand how a bow out of what you're normally making would be very difficult to work by "feel". I don't know how you could floor tiller a bow with a desired finished weight of 80-100#. :)
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Thats easy Greg (100lb bow thing). You take a normal bow blank, make a string for it and its done.
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Interesting thread! One thing is certain,,,, there is more than one way to skin a cat! ;) ;D
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There's them cats again ;D Fire up the grill!
Dana
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I think one of the main points of the thread is finding methods that will allow you to brace the bow not too soon as to crush the belly wood a bit, and obvoisly not too late and come in light. If I first brace the bow and it will draw to target weight at about 22" I am a happy camper.
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I know I will be changing the way I do things after watching the way Pappy and Greg do it. I will never use a step through brace for the first brace again. I have visibly seen the damage caused by putting more pressure on the top limb while doing this. I keep telling myself that if I am carefull it can be avoided, but I am convinced I am lying to myself. Justin
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22 in. is cutting it a little close for me I like it at about 15 in.But of course I am only shooting for around 26 in. draw.And yes justin I always use a stinger at least until is is almost out to full draw.
Pappy
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Badger, you and I agree on the importance of knowing when to brace for the first time. We also agree on not hitting full target weight until around 22 inches. I often don't hit it until 24 or 25 inches and shoot the bow in for the final 2 inches. Gives me sanding room. Let's give credit to Jim Fetrow. He is a proponent of that method. I no longer pull to full target weight asap. No need for it. No need for a quick bracing either. But to each his own. All we can do is present our view points. :)Jawge
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Once I hit 6" to 8" on the long string and everything looks good I brace the bow to about 4". This will tell me if the limbs are balanced and how the string lines up. If every thing is OK I exercise the limbs slightly while pulling the string a bit farther. If it feels heavy but is tracking and bending well I reduce weight by anywhere from 10 to 25 scrapes per limb with a scraper...exercise more and pull a bit farther. This is the time to correct any balance, twist or misalignment problems before you take too much weight off.
Watching Gary Davis work at the Classic with a tiller stick(look out Jawge :o) to just below brace height made since. Beyond that it is a tiller tree. By not going past brace with the tiller stick you don't unnecessarily stress the wood. Pat
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Pat- Gary Davis, you and Tom Sawyer are not the Jawge of 18 years ago snapping bows in half because they were too heavy to string. You and they have developed a feel for knowing when the bow is light enough to be strung safely. Nothing wrong with that.Most of what I do in bow building is by feel. I have no problem with using a t stick at that point thought I don't need it. Remember, also, not everyone has osage, which is pretty tough, growing in their back yard. Beats me why their is so much resistance to understanding the importance of reducing a stave sufficiently in weight to be strung safely. In my younger days, I used to have a big sign in my classroom called "The Wall". When the kids were being particularly dense and stubborn I'd go to "The Wall" and start talking to the sign. They'd ask what I was doing, of course. I'd say that I was talking to "The Wall" and when I am talking to them I might as well be. Pretty funny ha? I may just put one of those signs on my computer. :) Jawge
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George, I agree with you about the "feel" thing. I use feel and sound for testing for m/c and strength and from experience, I can be pretty close to where I want to be with both. That wasn't the case years ago. It took me years and lots of wood to be able to(or at least realize what I was doing) make a successful bow. The sooner someone realizes that patience is one of the most important aspect of wood bow building, the sooner they will be successful. Pat
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Pat, I agree. Patience is important. :) Jawge
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What a good topic. Good thing I was reading the old archives.
I think I might be doing what Jawge is doing. When I get the limbs bending evenly, I brace the bow at “zero” brace height. I think this is Jawge’s “long string” method? From there I check the weight, never stressing the bow over my target weight. I brace the bow when I can do without strain….when it feels right. Basically, it’s the Jim Hamm technique from that point out.
We also We also agree on not hitting full target weight until around 22 inches. I often don't hit it until 24 or 25 inches and shoot the bow in for the final 2 inches. Gives me sanding room. Let's give credit to Jim Fetrow. He is a proponent of that method.
Interesting thought, Jawge, you point out that you don’t hit your weight until about 22”. That’s probably a good idea. Why stress the bow early? I remember Jim. He was a Guru and a half. :)
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Great thread - have an osage stave i'm starting to floor tiller, thanks for everyone's input.I think I now know why my red oak board bow took so much set, (gotta little overzealous)and my hickory bow blew up on me. Jawge - have 20 kids coming into class now - definitely gonna talk to the wall at the first oppurtunity! ;D
Postman
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I pretty much use Jawge's method, i.e. when the tips are moving about 10" at target weight it's time for the short string. That said, I try really hard for an even tiller before I brace it the first time. And that's easier said than done because the long string doesn't reveal flaws as readily as the short string. So I pay a lot of attention to limb thickness and taper during this phase and the long string is primarly used to excercise the bow between wood removal sessions. If I do my job well, the first brace happens without a hitch and all that is needed are some minor adjustments to the tiller and a fair amount of wood removal to hit my target weight.
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Patience is probably the most important asset a good bowyer has. Experience is something we can only gain by making bows and I have to admit it sure makes life easier. Sometimes when trying to explain something in the right terms to someone whi is just starting out it can be difficult because we don't even realize ourselves sometimes how much we are actually doing by experience. If I am working on a bow of a familiar style length and draw weight I can pretty much just floor tiller the bow to first brace and be within a few inches of being done. I know quite a few guys who do the same thing. We do this for a few years and then the topic comes up when to go to the short string or first brace. Now we have to try and decipher methods that we can safely relay to a newcomer so he doesn't break his bow. Several years ago I used to keep a finsihed bow next to my tiller tree as a model, I could look at it and feel it, when my bow in progress felt just a bit stronger i knew I was close. This is where I have a lot of respect for guys like Jawge who have spent a life time teaching. A good teacher has to be able to ignore his own experience and put himself in the place of someone he is teaching. The whole process of both making bows and passing it on is both challenging and rewarding. Steve
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I thought I was the only one who kept a finished bow handy while tillering. ;) It didn't take me long to decide that making one style of bow was not as fun as a new style every time. I guess that is why I appreciate people who can build a longbow or recurve or R/D, an ELB or ALB along with almost any other style or profile. Its also why I appreciate Steves scientific/mathematic approach to fine tunning and getting the most from our bows. It is pushing our own tallent that makes average into good and good into great. There is a big difference when switching styles. Patience is certainly a constant in all bow making. Justin
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Most of the time Iuse a long string that hangs about 8" below the bow when it is on the tiller tree. When the bow reaches the desired weight at the intended draw length(using the long string), I then brace it about an inch or two lower than finished brace height.
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I pretty much do it the way Lennie dose it,but most of my bows are 60 to 64.I have found on 68 to 72 it is real easy for me to miss weight,I don't get it on the short string to early I get it on to late
and not enough room left for the final tiller.When I use the long string it is just long enough to go
n-n and bring to down to about 8 inches of tip movement before short bracing.There again
most of my bow are close to the same length and most times the same kind of wood,longer
heavy bows of different wood types I am sure would be a problem for me. :)
Pappy
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I finally marked the brace height on my tillering tree. There is a line running across the back board that lets me know that the tips are past brace height. I usually go about 4 inches past the line with a long string then brace it. Justin
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i used to use a long string, but same old same old: come in too light.
Then i found adb's how to on holmegaards, and his def'n of a long string really worked for me: just long enough, like a brace height of 0 inches. To find true tiller and true weight, i like to keep bracing the thing higher and higher as i go until i reach about 7". By the time I can brace it 7", i'm practically there. Weight and tiller are true...and i'm a happy camper.
As soon as I can brace it to 2", i do so. As soon as I can get it to 3, i'm at 3. I don't have a formula yet, but I have found that the bows work better for me if I tiller this way.
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One real simle way to never come in underweight is to always pull the bow to full draw weight, even when it is only bending about 2". When you have a long string on the bow if the string is hanging down 1" loose or 10" loose or braced at normal brace height it will read pretty close to the same poundage when you pull the string down to an inch marker on your tiller tree. The problem with long string tillering is it tends to bend more near the handle and when you brace the bow it will bend more in the outer limbs so you have to allow for this. Steve
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First brace is always uncomfortable for me, along with the early short sting tillering. After I get to the point where I can pull it a bit, it goes a bit smoother.
Sean