Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: mullet on April 22, 2007, 06:58:11 pm
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I was just curious what everybodies responce would be with this question.A few people on here know I like short bows and my favorite "model" is the 48" Bear Kodiak Magnum.Yes I have one and love shooting it.
The question is,does anybody think this bow can be duplicated in wood?With or without backing and a 28" 0r 30" draw? But still keep the speed,like not being dragged down with too much sinew for an example.And to keep it simple,without horn backing.
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Bamboo backed bamboo, perhaps? Or bamboo backed Osage? With a reflex-deflex design.
Sean
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I don't think so myself. That length is just too short to handle that kind of draw length and still shoot good. I would think if you made an osage bow from billets in which you spliced in alot of deflex and then reflex and recurved the limbs and then backed with rawhide prior to tillering, you could get a good hunting weight bow around 52" long that could pull back to 28". You would need some top quailty osage to produce a great shooter though.
dan
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You had to go and add the no horn at the end didn't you. I know it can be done with horn, so I know the wood can bent that much. I suspect it can be done, but it would take a bowyer more qualified than me to do it. Justin
If its OK I would like to add another question to this. How short is to short to be stable and shoot accurate?
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Eddie, I bet it would be hard to duplicate the Bear 48" mag. But I know you can build short bows without sinew and make em perform pretty good. I have a r/d thats about 48" and it starts to hit the wall about 26". Another, I posted, is around 51"-52" and my brother hunted with it all season. It performs well enough to kill any deer in the US. Dont think I would hunt griz with it though. I think it pules well to 28". A lot of it depends on the design. A r/d will get you close, if you pay attention to how much, or sharp the deflex is, and where the reflex is.
I know you said no horn but, I built one sorta like John S. builds, with horn on the belly and bamboo on the back. It draws to 28" pretty well. When I first built it I had it tillered to about 63 lbs. but i didnt like the tiller so i changed it a bit and brought it down to 56 lbs. It shoots well enough that I might consider hunting griz with it.
Ive been thinking of building one similar to it, but flipping the tips real hard (sorta like that new glass bow being made). I think if you did that and used the best materials you could get, you could get real close to a 48" bow that would draw 28-29" and 60 lbs. more so if it had a mild r/d profile.
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this is getting interesting.I for sure had osage and bamboo in mind.I have made some BBO at 51" that pulled 55#@28".But I'm talking the shape of the bow.It is a classic one of a kind bow.What separates the Mangnum from the Super magnum is the 4".I did see a 53" R/D that was curved almost as much,but still did not have that deep set handle.
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I think Ryan make some of his re-curves about that short with a 28 in. draw.I think he posted one here that is about that.The St. Patties bow in last Mont's B.O.M.I will look and see.That seem mighty short to me for that draw but I don't need that kind of draw so I haven't tried it. :)
Pappy
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I don't really know what the Kodiak looks like but to try making an all wood bow in that length and still keep good speed is just not possible. There's not enough working limb to go to a 28" draw
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Guys, why build it in that design in the first place? I know its cool and space aged looking and spits arrows like bullets. BUT! Short bows are in close hunting bows anyways. Why not do like the Native Indians of the Northwest coast did. Build short sinew backed bows on the Modoc and Huppa designs and then only draw them up to 24". They will shoot just as well and be really, really light to cary arround all day. Pluss, the Huppa designs often were only 36" to 40" in length but pulled up to 50 - 60#'s. I beleive these are short enough to put in your back pack or quiver!
Everything that is new is actually old! Just different in design. ;D
Also, in hunting get close and get personal!
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Mark,that's what I thought also.I didn't know if there was some magical wood that would bend that much.I know RyanO likes to push the envelope and so does Steve(Badger).I was just curiouse if anybody thought it could be done.D.Tiller, I Just like the way it looks and shoots.It's not to space age,coming from the early to mid 60"s.
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I think the bow Marc called "Dream Weaver" is the most similar if I am remembering correctly what a Kodiak looks like. Even if 48" inches isn't enough you could sneak a 28" draw out of a 52 incher.
Pat
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Making it with a stiff handle would be very difficult. BUT, if you made the handle very small, put in some deflex, and you might have it. Ryan's bow was 50" ntn and pulled to 27". If you put in the deflex, you could get another inch of draw, and got the handle as small as possible, maybe one more from the same length bow. So, if you modified the design, you could maybe, MAYBE get a 29" draw from the same bow, and because 2" of bow length equals each inch of draw, you could perhaps shorten it to 48", and still getting a 28" draw. This is in theory now, I'm not sure if it will work out.
Sean
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Sean,I couldn't remember how long Ryan's bow was,Thanks,Maybe with alot of reflex it might work.The Super Magnum has like a 81/2"brace height.It might work ??? Might have to wear armor to tiller it :)
When I get caught up,I'm going to have to see what I can tear up.
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In one of the PA issues I saw a palm bow someone made and it had a very small handle (it looked to me like the very small handles on the composite bows, and the fades were normal size, I think). But with a very small stiff handle and a good bit of reflex, it might end up a shooter!
Sean
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BTW remember, if this turns out, I want to see it! ;)
Sean
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sounds pretty short for comfort, BUT< What the heck, anything is worth trying. Education costs something even if it is a couple of good pieces of wood and boo. How about a 48" D style bow that bends in the handle with slight recurves at the tips to get rid of the stacking problem?
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They key word here is "speed". You can make a bow that short but making one that will be fast is the problem. The short working limbs just can't store enough energy without taking excessive set. Keeping the recurves very small will add to working limb length and deflexing will add to draw length. Makes for an interesting challenge
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i think there is a hickory board bow in one of the bowyers bibles that is 48" long and draws to 28". you would have to keep the back and belly perfectly flat to lower stress and possibly heat treat the belly. the slightly deflexed static recurve would possibly work. short statics would help prevent stacking. now that i'm thinking about it, a quarter sawn perfectly clean piece of osage backed with bamboo maybe hickory should hold up. or you could use the same combo and glue it up into a dou-flex working recurve. this would allow the limbs to uncoil and lenghten during the draw.
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I believe putting sinew on a bow while it is put into a reverse draw and allowing it to dry will cause more energy to be stored in the limbs.
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I don't think sinew will solve the problem by itself. If the wood don't blow under the additional stress, it will probably fret. The belly area is what someone would have to figure out. That is why he added the no horn clause. Justin
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How about widenning the limbs a bit to take up the extra stress and using Ipe for a belly wood?
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Well lets see here. If the bow is 48" long and is gonna pull 28 then your gonna need a wood as close to horn like ipe. A bamboo backing will work for the tension side and will also keep mass down bringing up the speed. Problem is I don't know how well ipe recurves. You could glue one recurves and have the boo going over it to keep it from popping off,also this way you can use a lighter wood like ash to lower tip mass. Adding deflex and lots of reflex seems to be the key here. So maybe like 1 1/2-1 3/4" wide limbs and very skinny tips. Well Ill be making something like this soon but with bamboo too see how it works before i try anymore.
Alex
P.S. throw the armor aside and get a bomb squad suit!
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Could you film the tillering process and put it on the net? I would love to see a bow go BOOOMMMM!!! Never seen it happen before but I think you may have a good chance! ;D
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Seriously though, I've been thinking about it. How about getting laminates of Ipe, thin ones, and a few of another to act as a core wood and allow for a good gluing surface for the sinew. Build a form and glue the laminations together. Belly of a couple lams of ipe then one of the bellywood and then start glueing the sinewbacking to it. Make sure to put horn overlays on the tips to take the shock well. This would allow you to get the shape of the bow and the tension from the sinew and the Ipe for compresion. I think this would work.
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It could be done, no doubt in my mind. It just depends on what you think "Fast" is.....Here's what I would recommend. Two Osage billets spliced in the handle with around 4" of deflex,A 6" stiff handle ,make it a reverse riser like the one I did on the paddy's day bow, add about 5" of reflex with about 3" static flipped up 45 tips and heat treat the crap out of the belly. make the limbs 2" wide at the fades and taper straight to 1/2" at the tips. My 50"er draws fine to 28" and still holds the same profile after many shots. No doubt this would make a great hunting bow, flight bow maybe not but it should perform quite well with a 28" draw. The old Bear 48"ers are no speed demons either..... 8)
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It's very possible. If the limbs are thin enough(3/8" tapering to 1/4") and wide enough (over 2") then it would work. Would need some serious reflexing though, and would have to bend through the handle for maximum performance.
Swear I've seen a bow like that. Shot well. Was all hickory. Hmm, might have to replicate it ;D
Man I love this place. ;)
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reflex it and bamboo//////////yourbest bet is a backed bow///////////
jpw
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So what's wrong with using horn?
Ralph
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Nothing,I just thought that would make it too easy.And take all the excitement out of tillering ;D
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I don't know Eddie. I think watching a heavy weight horn bow explode could be exciting. ;D Justin
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I don't know Eddie. I think watching a heavy weight horn bow explode could be exciting. ;D Justin
Hey Justin-try a shortbow sometime, gives a new meaning to the word "ka boom" ;D.bob
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How about horn backed Eastern Red cedar for excitement.Takes me back to my blasting days playing with nitro. ;)
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How about a decibel contest. We will see who can make the loudest boom. ;D I think if I put 2 layers of sinew on the back and a heavy horn belly, It will get up in weight before it blows. Anybody want to draw it for me. ::) Justin
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Eddie, I hear you on the ERC.Tuesday before last I had one explode into 3 pieces,and my ears rang all day!
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Hey Justin I'll draw it for ya. And I'm in GA so all dem Florida boys can come up and watch. Last time I checked my draw was right about 32" so it would be a good test. I've been out of archery for awhile and am trying to get back in, man I miss having gear, but that is half the fun of being interested in making my own. That and I've always wanted to do a horn composite. Send it out this way we'll get it on film and I'll be sure to were those safety glasses for once 8) ::)
There's probably not much that can equal the explosion of a horn bow xept maybe a horn warbow.
Blake