Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: recurve shooter on September 10, 2010, 11:34:26 am
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sorry, no pics right now, got a different phone and i cant figure out how to post pics. >:( anyway, its a cabellas sporterized hawken, percussion, .58 :o cal. i have a few questions for yall. i tried asking a few on the muzzleloading forum but it didnt help much. anyway, patches, what do i use and how tight should it make the ball fit in the bore? second, lube. i havnt tried to make anything homemade yet, but i have some muzzleloading lube, but i dont really know what its based on, i think its petrolium based, and of course, i have bore butter, which i think can be used for lube??? and it has a replacement ramrod on it that falls out when you point the gun down. how do i fix that???
anyway, i really like the gun. not all trad but close, short little sucker, 28 inch barrel. double set trigger set finer than a frogs hair, which i love. the bore is chrome lined , adjustable sights, its outfited for a sling, and has a sling my uncle made for me years ago when he was in angola state pen on it. its sighted for a hundred yards, so at the fifty that ive been shooting it it hits 5 inches high or so. thats alot of drop! but anyway, it should make a good partner for my .44 bp revolver, and whas appropriatly dubbed, The Beast. ;D
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Bore butter is a fine lube, never had any problem with it except that it is often liquid at higher summer temperatures.
Go back to your owner's manual and get the rate of twist for the barrel, you might have something that has a fast twist for shooting conical bullets rather than slow twist for round balls. Or it might be a red-haired stepchild with a rifling twist rate that is in between meaning it won't stabilize maxi-mini-conical bullets for spit and spins roundballs so fast that you blow out your patching.
If you are shooting a .570 roundball purchased from the store, it's going to be made of soft lead, almost elemental pure. Nice advantage there is that the ball will "upset" or deform when the gun goes off. The force of the black powder explosion behind the ball will cause the ball to flatten slightly at the back and squeeze outward to grip the rifling. In my opinion, too many people claim that muzzleloaders (traditional ones) are tempermental and picky in their loads. Ten thousandth patching should be just fine, easier loading than thicker patches. THAT is very handy for that backup shot.
I own 4 different muzzleloaders and I find that they all change point of impact when I change somethign in the load, whether it be different sized ball, different thickness patch, different lube, etc. But all loads shoot consistent patterns and the sights can be adjusted to compensate. I have yet to find a load that sprays all over the target unless you count the one where I didn't use any patch at all.
Lastly, go load a tightly patched ball down the barrel without any powder behind it. Yup, you heard me. Then pour a little water with plenty of dish detergent down the barrel and practice pulling a stuck ball. Sooner or later you are going to run a dry ball down the barrel, might as well get it over with while you are at home and no one is standing behind you at the range pointing and laughing.
Smoke'em if you got 'em.
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Just checked cabelas' website, your gun's rifling is 1 in 48 if it is the Hawkins and 1 in 28 if it is the Hawkins carbine.
1 in 48 will shoot balls or conicals, 1 in 28 is a conical barrel.
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A good patch material is pillow ticking, always worked well for me.
Experiment with different loads and ball combinations, including minis, which dont need patching, as the base is hollow and expands into the grooves when you fire the piece. Place a large piece of white fabric, maybe a drop cloth, on the ground in front of your bench, and when you see unburned particles of powder, you know you have gone beyond what the gun likes, so reduce the load from there. The odds of you blowing up a modern barrel are pretty slight, so hefty loads are fine, even 125 or more grains of FF for that caliber.
The best advice for any muzzle loader is to clearn it religiously as soon as you are done shooting for the day, so you don't get pitting. The stuff is so corrosive, you cant be lazy on that part.
Dane
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I have a 50.cal hawken so maybe I can help.OK here goes, #1. patches first DEFINATELY use pillow ticking its what the mountain men used and you can get a crapload of the stuff for a few bucks. #2. Lube, mink oil and tallow are great(tallow you can getfrom fat from the butchers for free). #3. ramrod, take a little piece of leather and glue it to the rod track to tighten the fit. Hope this helps ;D
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Woodslore, do you have any first person documentation of "mountain men" or anyone's choice in pillow ticking. The only specific documentation I have seen was thin leather (mentioned because they had run out of patching material but no mention of what patching material), and a few references of using shirt tails when they were late in season and low on supplies.
Whatever your choice in patching, remember that the tighter it gets going down, the more you have to deform the front of the roundball pushing it down and seating it firmly on the powder. Try using several different th8icknesses pre-cut patching and decide what you like best. Then measure it with a micrometer and go to your local fabric store and buy a couple yards of tightly woven pure cotton cloth of a similar thickness. You'll pay about $10 for 3 yds of fabric that will last the life of the gun vs $3.50 for 100 precut patches.
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Walmart pillow ticking runs about .018 and is what I use in a .54 with a .535 ball. For patch lube I like Hoppes #9 plus lube and cleaner on the range and mink oil or natural lube for hunting because I may leave my gun loaded for a month or more.
I am a flintlock guy now but shot percussion for years.
Made this flinter last year from scratch(pile of parts and a block of wood), my first.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/beck%20rifle/baghornsandrifle.jpg)
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That.....is beautiful!!! :o
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cool. thanks guys. i got some cotton fabric from hobby lobby, lady said it was the thickest cotton material she had. it seems to be working pretty well. the guy has a 1 in 48 twist, and im gunna stick to roundballs if i can. im about to go load her up and shoot some more. ;D
Eric, that thing is SWEET!!!! :o
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Recurve, what the other guys said, and don't rely on the chrome barrel being a barrier from rust. If it is only water, and no Black Powder, it is very minimal rusting. But if you have black powder, and it gets moisture, from humidity, or where ever it "WILL" rust. Stainless steel, reacts differently to black powder rusting, or sulphuric acid, which is what you get when sulphur and water mix, and sulphur is a component in black powder. Stainless will have very little surface rust, but it will pit really bad. So do as Dane said, clean it extremely well !! I use hot soapy water, and remove the barrel, and the nipple, and stick the barrel down in a bucket of hot soapy water, and take the ram rod, and put a piece of cloth on it that will fit somewhat snug, and stick it down the barrel, and put the barrel in the bucket of water, and start pumping the ramrod up and down, and it will act like an old pitcher pump, and start drawing the hot soapy water up into the barrel, through the nipple insert, and you can bring it all the way to the top. Do this for at least three to four minutes, or longer, then run a clean rag down the barrel, and it it comes out sooty, or streaked, repeat the hot soapy water process, and then when a clean rag comes out clean, put the barrel down into a bucket of hot clean water, and do the pumping action with it, till it comes out clear, and no soap. You can just pour hot water down it also, to clean the soap out. Then let sit upside down, for a few minutes, and then run a clean dry rag down it, and then when it is dry, run a lightly oiled rag down it.
You have a lot fun ahead of you. Dirty, but fun! ;) Don't forget to clean the nipple also. And it would be a good idea, to get an extra nipple. ;)
Wayne
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stickbender, thanks, i'll clean it like that. i know it'll rust bad. ;D
ok so i upped the charge to a hudred grains FF, and went out back and shot it about twenty times. (ouch. :'()
here are the results. i was shooting off of a little sapling tree. not perfectly stable but close. at something like thirty or fourty yards i was grouping high left. i got it tuned it hitting bulseye, but every shot varied by about an inch in random directions. i decided i was content with that, as the inch or so varriation may have been me, and moved a target out to about a hundred and twenty yards, cuz i was currious. first shot off my sapling rest compleatly missed my one by 3 foot backstop. so i reloaded and layed prone, proped on a stick (that hurt even worse lol) and let her rip again. that shot hit dead on as far as windage, but about a foot high. after all that i looked for some spent patches, and found a bunch of pieces of patch. its demolishing my patches. so i guess my cloth isnt thick enough, i would assume that would account for my troubles huh? ??? ???
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Try running a cleaning patch after each shot. The more you shoot, the more residue you build up in the barrel. This causes you to have more back pressure and will make your shots start climbing or shoot erratic.
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will do mullet. ok so my walmart dont have ANY fabric, so i cant get ticking there, and hobby lobby seems to have everything EXCEPT ticking. >:(
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Cut up some cotton sheets or pillow cases.
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would that be much different from the cotton cloth i bought? it seems like it would work well but it desentigrates in the barrel when it shoots and i tried to like double-patch it but i cant get it to go down the barrel with tow patches around it. >:(
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Like Mullet said, the more fouling, the more inconsistent your shots. Do you have a JoAnn's fabric shop, or a cloth world, or any kind of fabric shop there? And since I now have you on line, I have some foreign coins, some Italian, some French, some German, etc.
They are various sizes, are you still looking for some coins for your knife butts ? I had sent you some pm's but never heard back from you.
The next time you try to sight your rifle in, try to run a wet patch down the bore after you shoot, then a dry one, and then load, and shoot again, and see where you are hitting. Also get a good rest. Don't rest the barrel on anything hard, as it will cause it to jump. Put your hand under it, or a sand bag, etc.
Wayne
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Never seen a Walmart without a fabric/sewing department. If you can't find ticking, try to find drill cloth. It is off white, thick and close weave like ticking.
Close weave fabric is what you want, not just thick. Blown patches could be caused by several things, too thin patching material, too loose ball, or sharp lands in your rifling.
If you still blow patches after you find the correct patching material you need to work on the lands. To take the sharp edges off you use a piece green scotch bright pad wrapped around your bore brush and give the barrel about 100 strokes. This will polish the lands up real nicely and get rid of sharp edges.
You could also lead lap the barrel but that would be a lot of trouble when the scotch bright pad will do the same thing.
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You also may want to think about reducing the powder load. It isn’t a he-man masochistic contest, and 65 or 75 grains will kill a deer just as dead as 100 grains, the piece will be more pleasant to shoot, and it will cut down a bit on fouling. My experience tells me that guys tend to use larger loads than they really need.
A cleaning kit for field cleaning should be part of your kit every time you shoot, at the range or in the field. At least run a patch down the barrel between each shot, use a brush after every few shots, and make sure you clean the vent or nipple each time, too, so you get consistent ignition. And whatever habits you develop at the range should be followed when you hunt. You owe it to the animal. If you know where your piece will shoot at a given range after 5 shots, don’t take a shot at the animal after having fired the piece ten times, for example.
Any closely woven cotton fabric will do, not just pillow ticking. Ticking is designed specifically to minimize feathers coming out of a pillow or mattress, and there is such a thing as imitation ticking. If you switch to mini balls, you won’t have to worry about patching again.
Dane
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i may switch to miniballs. seems like that would be a ton easyer. but idk i'll try to get something figured out. thanks a ton for all the help guys, i need it lol
stickbender, thanks for the offer, but after that one blade i refuse to do another hidden tang lol. they are a pain. i apriciate it though. ;D
i need to get some more lead (roundballs and minis) and try again. i'll let yall know how it's comeing. again, thanks! ;D
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Recurve, they used to make a little green plastic double ended cup for round balls, in stead of patch material. Sort of like a sabot. I have used them for my fifty cal. TC hawken. I used a hundred and ten grains, behind a TC maxi ball, or Lee "R.E.A.L." Maxie. I can't remember the name of the little cups, and the R.E.A.L. stands for rifling on entry, or something or another. They both are accurate bullets. I used to use 110 grains behind the Maxi Balls, because, I had better range, and it was the most accurate load, for the maxi balls. Been a long time since I have been black powder hunting. I might have to get back into it.
Wayne
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Run the "dry ball test" I told you about earlier. Then look closely at your patches. If there are any cuts, nicks, or tears in the fabric then you know your rifling is sharp (a real common situation with new barrels).
Another thing to do is take a bit of your patching and put a match to it. If you get nothing but ash, then it is all cotton. If there is any residue that is crumbly, burnt plastic then you have a blended material and they never hold up no matter how well the barrel is lapped and shined.
Jeweller's rouge mixed with your chosen lube will also lap your barrel smooth, too.
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Halverson, No I do not unfortunately, but in quite a few paintings of real mountain men I see a long strip of thin canvas like material hanging from the stap of possible bags that closely resembles pillow ticking.
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Halverson, No I do not unfortunately, but in quite a few paintings of real mountain men I see a long strip of thin canvas like material hanging from the stap of possible bags that closely resembles pillow ticking.
I'm always interested in the artwork of a period just as much as the written accounts because it shows many things that are just not mentioned...for instance, how clothing or accessories are worn. One thing I learned about colonial times that went unprinted was the wearing of a belt around pants that didn't have belt loops. Woodslore, could you send me a list of those paintings and the artists? Some of the stuff gleaned off paintings is pure gold for a historical re-enactor.
And back on subject...smokepoles, that is. Yesterday I unlimbered "The Fat Lady". She's a Pedersoli double barreled caplock 10 ga. 90 grains of FFg down each with an equal volume measure of #5 lead shot. Got off 4 rounds at some sharptail grouse and came home to clean the gun only. Sometimes you eat the bear.....
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I use a left handed flinter myself. I believe a bore on a blackpowder rifle is similar to a good frying pan - it needs to be seasoned. I clean mine as described above with as hot of water as I can handle, and when it's clean I let it sit inverted for a few minutes for the heat to evaporate the moisture. Then I use "Bore Butter" instead of a petroleum product to protect the metal from rust. When I shoot, I just keep the next patch in my mouth and load with the spit patch. I usually don't have to clean a barrel between shots, but will sometimes run a cleaning patch every 25 shots or so...
HTH,
Keith
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If you are shooting a single ragged hole at twentyfive yards you have the right balance of grains of powder, patching thickness, and ball diameter. If you are getting occasional flyers hunt some of your shot patches out in front of you. They should be intact with no blow outs and a nice golden burnt brown. It takes a little fine tuning to get everything just right. My .25 gets fed 17 grains of 3F, a .010 ticking patch and .244 ball.
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Hey Recurve,, are you using a volumetric measure,,, or are you weighing your powder charges? this rifle shouldn't hurt when you shoot? just my two cents,, the new black powder equivalents are a god send!! no rotten egg smell the old lady lets me clean the gun in the house too I hope I'm not breaking a rule but I use (American pionere powder) but the #10 caps are dirty!! Jeff w
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i use a volume measure. its just the way i shoot that gets my face. right now im waiting to get some minis and some patches, then ima try again. a little preocupied with archery season though lol. ;D
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Knocker has a point about "seasoning" a barrel. Once upon a time the barrels were forged from black iron "scorps" and the metal was slightly porous like a good cast iron skillet would be even today. But modern guns are made of hot forged steel, the metal is homogeneous in the extreme and doesn't really season like the older barrels. I've read articles on black powder barrels being abused far above and beyond what they should undergoe in the hands of a decent gun owner, all this so they could test the various cleaning techniques. The barrel that got the least pitting was the one that was cleaned with just hot water!!! The theory was that the water dissolved all the corrosive salts left behind, but did not have the detergent action necessary to remove the waxy/oily components in the lubes.
He didn't mention it, but I bet he was saying to use the spit patch when you are target shooting and there is less time for the water in the spit to wet down the powder charge and cause the barrel to "ring" with an area of intensely localized rust where the patching rests. Grease lubes are the only way to go when hunting or leaving a gun loaded more than a few minutes.
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Yes JW, I use spit patches when target shooting and the patch isn't in the barrel longer than 10 minutes. If I were leaving a gun loaded for anytime at all, I have an old 35mm film cannister (more primitive than digital) full of patches lubed with bore butter. For me, I use petroleum products to clean my modern firearms, but I like grease or wax products for blackpowder. Wasn't bear grease one of the most common in the day?
Keith
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This is my pet smokepole.50 cal. CVA Bobcat. 245 grain powerbelt. I have a woodstock started. The gun will shoot just about anything a put in it. Dropped the doe at 60 yards.
<a href="http://s1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee451/HickoryBill/?action=view&current=1016101656a.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee451/HickoryBill/1016101656a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
This doe was shot 3 days later 50 yards running, again dropped in its tracks
<a href="http://s1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee451/HickoryBill/?action=view&current=1019101814a.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee451/HickoryBill/1019101814a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>