Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: profsaffel on July 26, 2010, 09:56:31 am
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Ever since Rich Rousseau's article "Building Authentic Ottawa Bows" came out in the Feb/Mar issue of PA, I've been a little more than obsessed with short, scalloped style bows that he makes so well. I knew then I'd have to make at least one of these. After reading the article many times, however, a few technical questions remained. Naturally, I asked around on the boards and everyone redirected me to "half eye", or Rich's handle on the message boards. What many mentioned is how helpful and friendly he would be. They were correct.
I emailed Rich several times before attempting my first Ottawa, and he always responded back promptly with tremendous insight and patience. What I expected was a "form letter" response to my inquiries, but "half eye" was always down to earth, sometimes apologetic if his responses were confusing, and never seemed to be bothered by my questions. After my first failed attempt at recreating one of these unusual bows, Rich gave me specific reasons why it failed and responded with pictures and diagrams to help. Most astonishing is when he took it upon himself to send me, via regular mail, a couple of real working rough Ottawa bows so that I could better understand the process. Few people anywhere would do such a thing without expecting to get something in return!
I promised Rich I'd post my first working Ottawa in the BOM since he insists in omitting his every month. Maybe doing so will encourage others to try this design. So, without further ado, I present the Rich Rousseau Tribute Bow in honor of a great bow-building mentor and one of the most giving individuals I've encountered.
The bow is 51" ntn, and comes out close to 35# at 26". I marked it at 24" for 'safety', but I know very well that I can draw it back to my full length with no problems. Solid hickory construction, it sports a deep red-brown stain and sealed with Tung oil. The decoration for this bow remained subtle in honor of our friend. Don't let the size fool you, this bow will zip an arrow as well as the big boys at similar weight.
To add, I think a better tribute will be to make several more of these bows and give them away, hopefully teaching at least one other person how to make them in the process. Perhaps half eye's Ottawa bow might become the official PIF bow of PA magazine!
Thanks for reading,
Doug
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holy crap, Doug
You sure built a fine "boise-de-arc" that tiller couldn't hardly be more of a circle. The main thing is YOU built it, not me, all I did was give ya some drawings.......very nicely done.
Now I got to see if I can get the red off my face ;D That is a very nice Ottawa my friend.
Rich
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That came out great! Very nicely done. Jawge
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Cool Bow! :) Bookmarked for July Self BOM fun too. :)
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That did come out great, nice work!
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Sweet bow ! One just like it is on my list !!
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holy crap, Doug
You sure built a fine "boise-de-arc" that tiller couldn't hardly be more of a circle. The main thing is YOU built it, not me, all I did was give ya some drawings.......very nicely done.
Now I got to see if I can get the red off my face ;D That is a very nice Ottawa my friend.
Rich
Thanks all. Yeah, Rich. I figured this might embarrass you a smidgen, but I figured you'll recover. ;) In the future, I will make a "hunting weight" bow similar to this one, now that I've got a successful one under my belt. And my first PIF bow will go to my bowyer friend Dave. He taught me half of what I know about bow making to this point, and he'd love to try to make his own if he has an example.
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thats what its all about , and your right Doug he is a rare breed , so unlike most of the self centered folks today !
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great job done on that bow,you got the ottowa scallops nailed.
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Mr. Rich taught me how to make mine as well, the tribute is well deserved. Nicely done, I hope to pay tribute come deer season by making meat with one.
Jeff
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Great little bow. Sure like to see folks pushing down boundaries. Best use for good quartersawn material I've seen.
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Great job on the bow! Rich aka HalfEye is a great friend and a great bowyer. I cant say enough or thank him enough for all the tips, ideas, info, etc... When it comes to native americans he is like a human museum. For those who know him knowwhat Im talking about. Very nice bow again and Rich I missed the article Im going to have to get it now...Have a great day!
Russell
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Nice bow but as I said elsewhere this really shouldn't be called an Ottawa bow until it is proven to be so. There are no artifacts collected that substantiate the claim.
Perhaps Rich would care to provide some documentation?
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Nice bow but as I said elsewhere this really shouldn't be called an Ottawa bow until it is proven to be so. There are no artifacts collected that substantiate the claim.
Perhaps Rich would care to provide some documentation
I,m sure some people care but I'm not one of them ;D Whatever it is you did a great job on it :) Cool looking bow and nice tiller
Perhaps you don't but I'm sure the Ottawa care and so do their ancestors
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Who gives a crap if its Ottawa, Apache, or from Outerspace why does someone have to provide documents on a bow that they had made? What I want to know is does the pyramid bow really come from Egypt? In my opininion Ive seen a few bows that were not classified correctly but each time I commend the maker of the bow and move on. I didnt know there was a trial going on or DNA was needed to prove the verdict. If a fellow PA member and friend says its an Ottawa bow I have no reason to disbelieve him otherwise. This is a fact and not my opinion! Good day!
AncientArcher76
Russell Hill
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:-[
Look gentlemen. All I wanted to do was share with everyone this little bow that Rich was kind enough to share with me (and many others). I never wanted to ruin this moment with a heated argument about what label it should have. If it helps calm everyone, we'll just call it "the short bow with scallops down the sides." Now, let's get off the boards and go build some more bows! ;D
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I'm sure that they do too. That's why two of my bows are displayed by the Odawa as replicas of their ancestoral bows. But I've told you that before and it's not good enough. My PA article was approved by Jay Sam before it ever went to Mr. Ingold, but that's not good enough.....hey I get the point that the Royal Canadian Authenticity Police are going to continue to piss up my flagpole, both here , Paleo Planet etc.etc. ; but like I said before the Odawa like it, that's accurate enough for me.
Maybe you ought to get together with the rest of the Moderators and throw me off your site, really dont matter though cause I met some nice people and can stay in touch anyway. If my posts offend you or violate the rules some-how then remove me.....and if not, give it rest, eh?.......please at least don't high-jack other peoples' posts.
Abscence of artifacts only proves that they haven't been found, not that they do not exist.
Rich
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I really like "your short bow with scallops down the sides",I especially agree with your depiction of rich,He is by far the most generous kind hearted down to earth individual that i have met that i have never really met.Kinda like the stranger giving you the shirt off his back,thats rich.People like Rich are the ones Who keep our passion alive by handin down their knowledge and getting everyday people involved in this addicting culture.Kudos rick and great tribute bow Saffel!
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Awesome bow, I sure do love the way that looks. Can't wait to see more!
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I really like those scalloped bows; have to try making one some day...
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Nice little bow with Scallops, ;) :) :) Very nice work,great tiller and finish work. Looks like it is ready for the woods. :)
Pappy
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I can see that there is a lack of understanding about this issue ::).
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Thanks Randy, Riley, Frank, Russell and Pappy!!! (I hope I didn't leave anyone out) Come Oct 1, I'll probably see if it will knock a squirrel from a tree. ;D
By the way, has everyone taken a good look at the little bow on the front cover of the Aug PA? I think it is really incredible how a 'modern' man, decked out with his Mossy Oak camo (probably sprayed down with scent blocker) has a hunting bow that is a truly primitive design! This is what I want to do and why I'm here and I hope to get a similar experience to John's this fall. A great cover *thumbs way up*.
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that bow that you made as a tribute is a BEAUT! I love the color of it. for a second i thought it might have been purple heart, till i saw that is was stained. once again it is a nice bow, and a great sentiment.
Rich makes a heck of a bow! AND he is one of the best dang kind hearted and caring people you would ever hope to meet. if he told me an apple was an apple i would believe him and not need documentation for it, because what is it that historians do anyway? they make informed guesses as to what might have been. thats why they are always backtracking each other and making amends to statements. also if one of the freaking tribes says it is. then i pretty much have to say it is. But this is all my opinion, and everyone knows opinions are like butts. everyone has one and most of them stink...
oh and if that ain't enough to say what kind of person rich is. then when i asked for help for a free camp for homeless, handicapped, and poor kids. well a few stepped up, but rich went above and beyond! I wont get into specifics cause i don't wanna embarrass my friend, but he helped alot. OK i am done carping and moaning. lol cant we all just get along?
God Bless
Kenneth.
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i've often wished i had a professional master bowyer for a neighbor so i could ask his opinion on things ... now im glad canada is not next door !
this is one of the neatest bows ive seen in a while and it inspires me to build scalloped Ottawa bows for the next year or so , now if i could just find a nice giving bowyer to steer me in the right direction... >:D
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i've often wished i had a professional master bowyer for a neighbor so i could ask his opinion on things ... now im glad canada is not next door !
this is one of the neatest bows ive seen in a while and it inspires me to build scalloped Ottawa bows for the next year or so , now if i could just find a nice giving bowyer to steer me in the right direction... >:D
Regardless of that statement, if you were to ask for my opinion I would still give it to you.
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Not trying to hi jack the post or discredit the bow in any way I believe these sights have tried to maintain a high level of historical accuracy when ever possible. The north american indians did have quite a few ceremonial type bows that were not actually used for everyday hunting or warfare that were built a variety of ways more for looks than actual use. I do have a naturally scalloped bow due to branches growing off the sides that could have concievably been made from saplings as mine was. Other than ceremonial or aesthetic reasons their would have been no reason to scallop a bow as survival was the main objective of bows. Steve
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But then on the Other Foot....there was no reason to paint them all up with purty Hyroglyphs and adorn them with Feathers...Beads and other purty stuff either....but they Did....... ;)
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Thought personal attacks were unacceptable? if you cant say something nice.....
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Not trying to hi jack the post or discredit the bow in any way I believe these sights have tried to maintain a high level of historical accuracy when ever possible. The north american indians did have quite a few ceremonial type bows that were not actually used for everyday hunting or warfare that were built a variety of ways more for looks than actual use. I do have a naturally scalloped bow due to branches growing off the sides that could have concievably been made from saplings as mine was. Other than ceremonial or aesthetic reasons their would have been no reason to scallop a bow as survival was the main objective of bows. Steve
No prob, Badger, whether intended or not, this thread was highjacked (maybe that's too strong, more like distracted from its intent) long ago.
I've tried and tried to keep the focus here on the bow and not the label but since you brought this related point up, let me propose a reasonable idea.
On page 61 of TBB Vol 2, which I have not to this point seen anyone attempt to discredit or argue against in any fashion, a clear-as-day Seneca bow with scallops down one side is pictured and discussed, including various "unnecessary for survival" decorations. That info is brought to us by the work of Steve Allely based on the history contained in the National Museum of the American Indian. I have to believe that all of those sources have worked toward the goal of historical accuracy as well as can be expected. Now, based on the history in the Historia-Dominion (The Canadian Encyclopedia) and I'm sure a few other legit sources, both the Seneca of the Iroquois people and the Algonquian Ottawa had dealings with one another, probably much in the way of warfare with the Ojibwa's expanding into former Seneca lands. Much like Christian crusaders in the middle eastern lands did about borrowing, adapting, and stealing Muslim tech (and their are plenty of other examples but this was fresh on my mind), it is very possible and even probable that within the last four hundred years, these scalloped bows of various designs were exchanged, stolen, adapted, etc. and not just for religious purposes. To continue the theory, it is possible and probable that at one time or another, most of the Eastern Woodlands groups came into contact with one another and therefore cultural diffusion did indeed run rampant, and with the way history goes, it could very well be that this "Seneca bow" from the TBB was originally an Ojibwa design the Seneca adapted and used for their own in warfare, hunting, whatever, and that the evidence we have today suggests that scallops are with the Iroquois only. But I don't know any of this. I can only speculate based on very reasonable hypotheses that this is possibly an Ottawa but extremely likely at least an Eastern Woodlands style bow, that Marc is looking out for the best interest of the group by being critical of what goes on the web site, and that Rich has what he believes is adequate substantiation of his claims so that I do not have any business discrediting him because I have not visited any museums, reservations, or archaeological sites that can collaborate nor disprove those claims. And I'll leave it at that.
It's situations like these were I wish to goodness I was a research professor at a major university with access to funds... but I'm not. I'm just a small fry teaching prof at a community college. However, I'm putting this on my top five possible research topics for publication if my future allows me to go this route. In the mean time, I'm going to keep making scalloped bows and enjoying life.
Ok, lecture over. I'll expect an essay on this on my desk by Monday and test will be conducted next Friday. Class dismissed. (sorry, relapse) ;D
Finally, can I ask that if anyone else would like to discuss historical authenticity, may they humbly start their own thread, entitle it something like "Debate over Ottawa bow authenticity" or whatever, and have a good time doing that if you so choose.
Now I've got a stave that is begging to be whittled upon, so I'm outta here. Have a great evening.
-Prof
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Well said and I do add I actually enjoyed reading your thread and the way you carried yourself during its course. History does repeat itself and this certainley was not the first debate over historical conclusions nor will it be the last. All in all what it comes down to is learning, teaching, and the ability to perfect your craft. Thanks for sharing with us your work. Have a good day!
Russell
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Very nice job on the bow, I'm glad you're enjoying it!
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Prof, beautiful tiller and a well crafted bow. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. With a mentor like Rich you are in good hands. Looking forward to your next stylized bow. ;)
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I have to say/ask this in case no one has noticed the obvious. This forum, as well as the magazine, has provided an enormous resource for me as well as thousands upon thousands of others that are engrossed in the creation of bows. Without meaning to downplay anyone else's participation, influence or brilliance; that article by Rich (half-eye) on the Ottowa bow that was printed in PA mag appears to have inspired more bowyers as of late than I have ever seen on this or any other forum. In fact I dare say that I have never seen as much response in anything outside of archery as well. Rich, if there was an award for most influential builder, or best article of the year, or any such thing then you would receive my vote hands down. It is readily evident of one's worth as a teacher when the student creates a masterpiece as is the case here. Congratulations to both of you!
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Wow, thanks Scott, Russell, Parnell, Pat and pighunter. I truly appreciate the kind words. I went to bed last night kinda down after the initial posting reopened some "old wounds" for lack of a better description, but the series of positive comments really brightened the day.
Go in peace,
Doug
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Like Badger, I have never been able to figure out the logic behind the scallops. But why it was done doesn't really matter. Just add that to the long list of things I don't know.
You did an awesome job on a difficult bow. My hat is off to you for being able to tiller it so well with all those scallops.
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Glad to see everyone is playing nice,that is how it is supposed to work around here,each with there own opinion and able to post it in a nice mannerly way. Like I said before very nice bow on a challenging style to make. Well done. :) I will stay out of the rest cause I sure ant a Indian History
or Indian lore expert,I just make wood bows. :) :) and know a nice one when I see it. :) :)
Pappy
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Rich and benefactor...
Half Eye,
As you know we have never met, and, well.... probably never will.
BUT, you have given me more ideas that I will ever be able to create! Every time I get on a project that I am really up on..............YOU POST ANOYHER PIC!!! ;D ;D ;D
This is my own way of giving a compliment.
Beautiful Bow Benefactor...I say this in this way because i have benefited from Half Eye myself.( from his knowledge.)
GREAT JOB on the weapon,.... and, Rich,....Thanks for the inspiration.
GOD BLESS
RON
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Great job on the "shorty"' Prof. Ottowa or not, you nailed the tiller and created a nice looking bow.