Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: dragonman on June 07, 2010, 09:09:14 am
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Here in the uk there is sadly a lack of primitive archers and bowyers. Last year, feeling alone and isolated I decided to join the nearest archery club thinking at least there would be some long bow men amongst them. Firstly I was told I must complete a begginers course, I complained saying I'd shot bows for 20 years, but no, I had to comply with the rules, so I humbly agreed. I proudly turn up at the club next day, with my latest BBI in hand. Loking confused, they ask what kind of bow is that?. I reply its a 60lb BBI I made it. But what kind of bow is that, he replies, never seen one of those befort? It will have to be inspected for saftey you know Have you done an apprenticeship?. I hand over the bow for inspection, hoping for some respect for fine craftsmanship. The leader looks confused, turns it around a few times totaly unable to relate to what he is looking at and says, well I suppose it looks safe and hands it back. Oh well he's a compound man I'm thinkng , Ill get on better with the long bow men. There was 2 of them there that day. The first looks at my bow as confused as the leader, the second, asks what category of bow is this? I no nothing of categories I've always shot in the woods, I reply, but its fast!! Lets see what these long bows can do I've heard a lot about them.. I was very confused and dissapointed. These bows where looong. must have been at least 76", and they kept unstringing them between shots. ????? why, to keep up their speed, their power was quick to let off apperently!! They had at least a 3" set as far as I could see. I decide to ask for a closer look at their bows. Hickory backed lemonwood with a purple heart core they proudly respond. Made by the most respected, 'official' longbowyer in Britain (whose name I wont mention unless you pm me) ??? Very nice I reply, even though they where well sluggish compared to my uncatergorised bbi.
I thuoght wow, they're gonna be well impresed with the speed and performance of my bow, and they can leave it strung all day! I'm gonna get some sales here!! But no, The first guy, says hes about to buy a new long bow and he will sell me his old one at a good price , then I can shoot a real lonbow :o Its all true They wherent concerned, or didnt even notice the performance difference of these bows , they where only concerned with the looks and style.
Even now , I'm confused, as to why, Britains most well know longbowyer, uses the heaviest wood in the core of his laminated bows, makes no sense to me, can anyone else explain it. What is the use of been stuck in tradition at the expense of practical performance?. I persevered for a few weeks at this club but quickly got bored. I hope you like this true, unexaggerated story. By the way, their shooting was ok, not great but ok. The compounds thrashed me every time
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Cool story,we have that here sometime when I take a selfbow,especially a character one to a mostly
compound shoot,Theywill ask questions like can you hunt with that thing. :) :) and they all call them recurves no matter what type of bow they are. :) :) I just smile. :) and think you dumb A$$.You tell them it's a selfbow and they say O you built it yourself. ???
Pappy
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He's just making "pretty" bows for the "sports"... eye candy !!! Tradition and marketability does interfere with progress frequently... ::)
Compounds ??? :o Grrrrr!!!
Best find some mates who share your vision ...
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Hi Dragonman,
That is a very interesting story. I've been to England on several occassions. My sister lives in the London limits.
I always enjoy the time I spend there. I've always been shown fine hospitality from the in laws and the community.
It is always interesting to me, though, about the differences between American and English culture.
Do you think they were "hung up" on tradition or maybe they want to resist change? I hope this doesn't come across offensively, as that isn't my intention, but I've always felt there was more of a feeling of - This is the way things are and I'll know my role and I'll carry on being content- mentality when I've gone to visit.
It's too bad that you couldn't have enjoyed the experience as an exploration of ideas and comeradery in an enjoyed pursuit.
I wonder if hunting the bow was commonplace for the people if there'd be a greater interest in exploring alternatives for bow performance?
I was watching a tv show last night - Pig Bomb - on Discovery Channel. They were highlighting the expansion of the wild boar population throughout the world. Southern England was mentioned, a woman apparently was attacked while on horseback in the countryside.
Have you seen an expansion in wild boar in your area?
Thank you for the post - it's very interesting to me.
Parnell
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Wild boars can be very tasty , especially "harvested" with a bow you made yourself !!! Very satisfying , Twice !!! ;D Don't know the hunting laws there, but it could be classified as "pest eradication" ;)
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There are lot of people who trot out the 'received wisdom' and don't really appreciate what they are shooting.
I'd hope you'd have got a better reception at our club where they are friendly and interested in the whole subject.
Many years ago I had been put off clubs before by stuffy attitudes, I visited one by invitation, they all wanted a go with my longbow but didn't offerme a go with their bows, then some pillock made a fuss because I was spending time looking for one of my arrows that was lost (not shot by me). The worst was when I took my crossbow pistol to demonstrate at their indoor winter practice hall (I was invited). Some officious jobsworth who had drone on at me about safety proceeded to walk across in front of me while I was on the shooting line with a cocked loaded crossbow pistol :o.
I vowed to never go back.
A couple of years ago I found my current club which is great.
I'm sure we've all met some twits, better luck with a different club, the field shooting fraternity generally seem pretty friendly.
Del
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Sounds like you got the new guy snub. Sounds like an opportunity to start a local trend. Perhaps you could set up somewhere, at a festival of some sort, and introduce primitive archery to folks. You may develop a customer base that way. Just a thought, when the gold rush happened here in the US; the folks that did the best, were selling picks, and shovels. ;)
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dragonman it was a bad dream!!! you are home at PA we'll protect you from the wheelie men jw
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thanks guys, I'll have to move to big wilderness over the ocean. Dont mean to put those guys down, they where nice enough, and tried to welcome me best they could, mostly nice guys. Just had no idea about wooden bows, or any interest even. Even the longbow men!!!!. I just found this suprising, along with the quality of the long bows!!! How can you get a 76" bow of prime bow bood to take a 3" set if you make bows for a living? ???
That was my plan Parnell to have this attitude , but I couldnt make it work.
as for wild boar, I've never seen one, there aint any around here and if they showed up the 'farmers' would soon kill them as a pest
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Hmm - I wonder if that story is true. I was surprised to hear of wild boar in England...
Now if the program were Pheasant Bomb then I'd see it. I couldn't believe the dead pheasants on the roadside!
Hope you can find a group you enjoy.
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D-man... I'm finding out that there are very similar scenarios and viewpoints over here in Ireland as you described. There are "societies" like ITFAS and AFAS and probably some others (I'm not really bothered cos I don't need to join them to make and shoot bows) that have certain attitudes and opinions that seem to serve little or no other purpose than to fuel the egos of the ones "ruling the roost".
The chairman of one of the field archery societies over here, runs it more like a target archery format. "...let's cut that tree down- it's in the way. keep that target out in the open and mark off how far away it is from the archer..."
Fine, if that's how he wants to run things. Shouldn't call it "field archery" though. My bowyer mentor is 75 and comes originally from the East End of London. Back in the 50's or 60's, he applied to the council somewhere for land to be put aside so they could use it for field archery. They met the representative out on a suggested piece of land and he asked my friend "what d'you think? Pretty good, eh?"
Jim said it was a lovely field but not very useful for what they wanted ;D they eventually got a wooded area somewhere that fit the bill perfectly.
My friend Jim also says that what I'm doing is very rare in Ireland and even England. He says he knows feck all people that choose to make a bow and the equipment that goes with it. Most people go to the nearest shop and pay through the nose for some slapped-together piece of wood and/or plastic and some "arrows" that have feathers on one end and a pointy bit at the other... and then they're an archer.
For me, it was just the natural thing to do - make my own stuff.
Anyone on here that makes bows to hunt with (or in the UK/Ireland, for field archery) knows that it can take a long time to make a bow that's "good enough" for you! I've seen some longbows made by "respected UK bowyers" and there's a fair amount of set in them... and these are "new bows" for sale in a shop!! Not owned and used for the past ten years... To my mind, there's a big difference between the bows I see on this site and the "professionally made" bows that some guy is whacking out at a serious rate, in order to make a living from.
There's a favourite saying that was used on here the other day - "you simply can't polish a turd..." This is true. But you can seal it in tru-oil or urethane or varnish of some sort and then polish that up pretty shiny ;)
As for wild pigs... There's been some reports over here in the past few months of wild pigs being seen in (I think) the West of the country. Very cool, if it's true. I just wish they'd allow bowhunting here.
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Well, it can be that way here too. I get funny looks at "everybody" shoots. But everybody is respectful of the old guy who shoots outdated tackle. LOL. I haven't been to one in awhile though. Jawge
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Cool story,we have that here sometime when I take a selfbow,especially a character one to a mostly
compound shoot,Theywill ask questions like can you hunt with that thing. :) :) and they all call them recurves no matter what type of bow they are. :) :) I just smile. :) and think you dumb A$$.You tell them it's a selfbow and they say O you built it yourself. ???
Pappy
My dad shoots a compound and for the life of me i can't get him to call my selfbows, "longbows" he always says "recurves", it's funny. I thought it was just my dad, guess not.
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I've heard the term "stick bow" with more than a little derision in the tone. At one 3D shoot, there were three non-wheel bows, two were fiberglass, and mine was the only self bow. I've found the wheelie guys often, but not always, consider traditional bows a joke.
Dane
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Parnel' I believe that it is true there are a few breeding groups of wild boar in Britain. Some in the New Forest, down south, but very few. It is pretty certain that black leopards are living wild here too, ther are sightings snme where in Britain every week. Those guys are smart, because even the army cant find them. There are often sightings from believable people and police and army try to track them down..
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Regarding clubs. At the club I've been going to, they are mostly rural folks who are easy to get along with. They do look with amazment at my rig, and home made everything.
Funny story, there are 3 guys who shoot recurves and the rest all shoot 10 speeds. One of the well respected recurve guys asks to try my selfbow which is not center shot. Shooting at a 5'x6' target at 20 yards, he clean misses the whole thing on the first shot....darn funny. I busted a gut because he used to make wonderful laminate bows and is a respected hunter. To his credit, arrows 2 and 3 were within a foot of each other on the target.
Clubs seem to be funny places. Maybe we need to organize a world wide gathering of Primitive Archers. Perhaps in Alberta, then I could attend....lol
J
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It is pretty certain that black leopards are living wild here too, ther are sightings snme where in Britain every week. Those guys are smart, because even the army cant find them. There are often sightings from believable people and police and army try to track them down..
Isn't one of those called "The Beast of Bodmin Moor"...?
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Interesting story as far as the wild swine around here there are many my son catches them to sell to hunting preserves. I was somewhat amused by the speculation that we would possibly soon see a 2000 pound pig that could run 70 miles per hour, my son and I speculated that it would make a fine saddle animal.Ron
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I to have had similar experiences to Dragon man in the UK.
The first club I tried to join I took along a nice hickory flat bow that i had made and I came in for a lot of ridicule from the members of the club. So much so that as I left a guy came up to me in the car park and apologised for the behavior of the members of the club.
When I got home I had an email from the club secretary telling me to literally P**s off.
The second club I tried to join I got a similar response.
Then I went to a field club and was made to feel very welcome although I get some odd looks when I turned up with a sinew backed Osage recurve.
There is definatly some thing wrong with archery in the UK.
When I started to show a interest in making my own equipment I got no help or encouragement from my fellow countrymen.
I found websites like this one and discovered that there are other people with similar interests to my own but very few in the UK.
Rant over.
Spinney
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What chaps my hide is when someone comes up and asks if I think that my bow can really kill a deer sized animal. :'(
I'm pulling a 50 lb flatbow for heavens sake. The 'public' impression now is that if it does not have wheels and lots of cables, it ain't lethal.
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What chaps my hide is when someone comes up and asks if I think that my bow can really kill a deer sized animal. :'(
I'm pulling a 50 lb flatbow for heavens sake. The 'public' impression now is that if it does not have wheels and lots of cables, it ain't lethal.
i find that when I tell 'em the arrow goes at over 100mph and can go through a car door they can relate to that... Mind you with modern car doors you can probably spit through 'em ;D.
Mind in the UK, they generally know that a longbow will kill anything the size of a Frenchman >:D
Del
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I understand everything the UK guys are saying but it could have been just bad choosing of clubs. I wouldn't think of going and joining a target archery club, field archery yes as that should be set up like hunting without the blood.
But I shoot a English longbow and do field archery. Not British Longbow Society or Target archery.
I have one guy in my club who always say "hey look it's rudolph the reindeer what happen to his nose??" About my Fallow deer quiver. I don't mind because his girl always comes over and says that it is the best quiver she has seen, do I make them to sale,have I any others???
With a lot of things, Someone has to say something bad before they say something nice.
I am sorry you haven't been able to find any other like minded people spinney and Dragonman but don't give up we are here in the UK!!!!!
Dragonman PM me the name of the bowmaker if you can I would like to know their name??
Wild boar in the UK yes there is and more each year. Big wild cats yes there are also. They have been spoted only 5 miles away from where I live.
There are guys I know who say Yeah I would like to shoot a Longbow but they are to hard to shoot right or they are to slow you have to rise the bow up to high at long 40 yard targets and I want to one day......Well I have a draw of gold medals from shooting the longbow, but some of my greatest shoots I shot so bad but laugh so hard that it doesn't matter, it was being out there that was the joy of the day not the score.
I think that's the thing with some people they have to win and they believe they can do that by buying the next best thing or whatever the archer guy on TV is using instead of hard work and just enjoying the time and people you can shoot with......
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I'd seen some coverage on the big cats there, but didn't know if it were true. Very interesting that it is, we've got our panthers in S. Florida, as well. I've only seen one in the wild, but found lots of tracks over the years. Stay on the lookout or Hogzilla, gentlemen, apparently he is out there! I think I'd soil myself if I saw Cracker buckin through an open field on the back of a boar that size!!! :o ;D
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Dragonman,
Where are you based in the UK? I had the same experience at the club I tried out. There were a few Longbow guys; who are apparently supposed to be more friendly the others; and then olympic style. The longbow guys were more interested in keeping to themselves and the others were not interested once they knew I wanted to take up trad!
PM me maybe we can get together and start something like the Mojam in the US. Del are you up for this?
Pete
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Someone with an organizing personality should arrange a yearly British wooden bow shoot, woodenbow people could meet up, it would be a start,
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The offer above is open to all the UK bowyers on here, shall we have a get together?
About the big cats in the UK, I would love to see one. I've tracked leopards in South Africa (was a ranger before moving over here) worked on a leopard project just before I moved. It would be great if one of you (Spinney) pm me when there is sighting, maybe I could track it, take a few pics.
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Dragonman,
Great minds think a like!!!!! Shall we see how much interest we get and then start something?
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This may be of interest to you guys
www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk (http://www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk)
no bow clsssifications
no weight limits
shoot anything you want except compounds
wooden arrows only
... sounds good to me
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Someone with an organizing personality should arrange a yearly British wooden bow shoot, woodenbow people could meet up, it would be a start,
Hey and while you're at it, give some advice to a guy in Tennessee on how to get folks together to shoot like the English Warbow Society. ;D
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Dragonman - you could look out for an NFAS club (field archery) http://www.nfas.net/ NFAS includes a "primitive class" in which your BBI would fit - I've made and shot a couple of these. Some NFAS clubs are mainly compound archers, but others are much more focussed on ELBs, American Flatbows and primitves. NFAS is very informal and friendly. Also check out SPTA for hard core primitive archers. GNAS is the target archery association and has all sorts of stupid rules about what you can wear at a shoot!!! BLBS is an association for ELB target archers and again riddled with traditions and rules.
I can guess who made the ELBs you saw. IMHO his basic three laminate bows sold through arcehry shops and bought be undiscerning target archers are mass manufactured, but his more bespoke bows are something else. Core woods can function in more than one way and don't just serve to lighten the bow, ipe after all is a very dense wood and the "core" of your BBI is ipe. A small amount of string follow is actually preferred by target archers as it makes the bow more stable and softer in release - speed is not so important for target shooters: horses for courses!
I know there are wild boar in parts of Southern England but I've never seen one - would love to do so. The woods where our NFAS club shoots are thick with roe deer - mainly because nobody shoots them here!
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Dragonman,
If you weren't well welcomed in a GNAS club I'm not suprised. Some 10 years ago I was the first to join and shoot longbow in the local GNAS club (having made and shot wooden bows all my life) and they were very suspicious of my yew bow I made myself. I found a better "home" in an NFAS club.
There are a growing number of people making wooden bows in the UK. Many start off making longbows and then end up more on the primitive side. Perhaps we will meet up one day at an NFAS shoot in the primitive class? Yes, there are some prats that just don't understand or see bows like we do, but that is their loss. If they are happy shooting their expensive limp high set bows. so what? Strange how a bow can perfom so badly, have so much set, be sao long yet stull break!
There is a small group called PAAS - Prehistoric Archery and Atlatl Society, an offshoot of SPTA Society for the Preservation of Traditional Archery. We meet up from time to time to talk over a camp fire and beers about the big bow that got away, do archery demonstrations or just make stuff. Why not look us up? We may be meeting up at Flag Fen near Peterborough later in the year.
I really like the idea of their being a UK wooden bow makers gathering.
Re wild boar, I have seen their signs in Kent (dug up turf etc) but not seen any actual animals.
Final word to UK bowyers - Don't let the barstards grind you down!
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I get the same thing once in a while. Guys will say stuff like you actually hunt with that? I dont think they realize that the wooden bow was the prime weapon for hunting and warfare for thousands of years. When I was first getting into shooting a trad bow about 15 years ago I was practicing at an indoor range and naturally some of my shots were not hitting were they should. This compound shooter comes up to me all angry and starts giving me a lecture about how hitting an animal with non lethal shots is unethical. I tried to explain that I was practicing so I could get better and not planning to just go fling an arrow and hope ::). Some people are just that way I guess. Im guessing those kind of people are jerks all the time and are most likely offended because of the degree of skill required to shoot a traditional bow well. I can grab one of their bows and drill bulls eyes all day. Hand them my bow and this type of person wont try it because they are afraid of looking bad :) Most people I run into are good though :)
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Dragonman,
PM me maybe we can get together and start something like the Mojam in the US. Del are you up for this?
Pete
Sounds like a great idea to me! I may even be able to sort out some woodland to play in, and possibly pinchy some staves from too ;)
PS Chester Northwales, access to a bit o woodland near llangollen.
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Whayever is decided or suggested, keep it in this thread so we (UK woodbenders) know where to look! Bob in Surrey (v. near to Backgardenbowyer)
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I'd be up for a nice informal meet up/shoot/chinwag/drink/eat as long as it wasn't a million miles away.
Del
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Any chance an Irish woodbender could wangle an invite to one such gathering...? ;)
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Thanks Horace for that contact, I'll definately check it out. Yes, Inyati, thanks for the imput, a uk. mojam would be a great idea, I'm definately interested, we must talk more, Woodland near to LLangollen, would be great Dwardo, I know that area, very beautifull part of Wales. All interested parties, Markinenland, backgardenbowyer, and the rest, lets put our heads together and make it happen. A venue would be the first step. Preferably central because we all come from different parts of the country, but the uk isnt so big we cant get to most places, I'll bet people travel long distances to get to the USA mojam. HatchA your definately invited, we cant do without the Irish contingent. Trouble is I'm not much of a front man, but would like to try and make it happen.
There arent any NFAS clubs any wherenear where I live , Backgarden, thats the only reason I joined the GNAS, ( not even sure what they stand for!!!)
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Whereabouts are you dragonman? I think most of the wood bowyers who've replied from UK are in the South, but we are always prepared to travel if there is a venue and maybe even somewhere to camp. The idea of a meet for primitive bowyers to swap stories, trade, do a bit of shooting amd maybe a bit of bowmaking together would be great.
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BGB I'm based in S.W. Wales
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I was invited to a indoor GNAS practice night I turn up with my Black Walnut self bow 50lb draw weight and got some real funny looks and comments that you don't shot that do you by the end of the night the chairman came along and told me not to bring "That Bow" again as I had blown the center of the target out at twenty yards and the target was a in need of repair.
My response was so your guys don't hit the center that often then do they even with all them bit bolted to your bows
Let just say I did not go back
I found my home with in the NFAS
They will let you shoot any bow as long as it is safe
There is a small but growing group of archers in the UK that love shooting bows that they have made
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Hi Guys
Just returned from my Holiday and found this thread a few pages down.
So just added this post to bump the thread up to the front page.
I think we should give this idea of a "Britsh Mojam" serious consideration.
I for one have never met another Britsh Bowyer. I Have met several USA bowyers on my lucky travels across the pond and gained a wealth of information from Steve Gardinor (badger) and Rich Safford.
I would like to pass some of my knowledge to others as well as learn new things.
Could this be the start of something new?
I hope so!
Andrew.
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Hi all,
I would be willing to try something out in the UK if there is guys to turn up?????
i am from the east of the UK.
Thanks for your time.