Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: half eye on May 30, 2010, 03:25:06 pm
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Hey fellas,
Got a bug to do some bows with "natural tools". I've got 4 done and an Inuit cable-back....that has yet to get it's cables (that's going to take some time) Anyway, there are two types of chippewa, an ottawa, a short double curve plains bow of black walnut, and the Inuit which is made from a single white oak barrel stave. All the bows are unbacked, split out boards, sanded / carved / finished with rocks. The detail carving on the scallops, knock fineals etc was done with a onondaga chert blade ( from ancient archer).....even used that blade to whittle out the curly maple handle that's it hafted to.
All the bows (3) are white ash, the ntn's, style, etc is at the title of @ pic. All the bows weigh between 44# & 48# except the 53" chippewa which draws 56# @ 27". The arrow in all the pics is the same one and it's 27" from rear of the head to the bottom of the string knock. All the bows have been drawn and shot to 26". I posted some penetration pics in the hunting section under "hunting with NA "d" bows) these things shoot pretty hard.
The last photo is a semi-headon shot of how I shoot them. Notice the "open" stance, slightly bent at the waist, and the floating anchor. Since I'm aiming way left of the photographer the stance doesn't look to be very "open" but generally I am approx. 45 degrees to the target....that is what I mean by open stance.
Hope ya like them....they were fun to make and a blast to shoot, they are tough bows and shoot hard....I sure like them. If you want some detail pics of any of the bows I'll post some here./....just didn't want to bury ya in pics.
Rich
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More pics
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We are almost done
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WOW Rich u are a MANIAC! I mean is u are one heck of a bowyer! That is awesome! It looks like it shoot pretty good too as I noticed the arrows sticking out the other end of the target. I cant say enough about the detail and effort you put in to making your bows Rich. Talk to u soon!
Russ
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Wow Rich! You've been busy again. Really beautiful work, as always.
Are the scallops on the Ottawa asymmetrical or is it just the angle we're seeing it at? And is the Chippewa scallop bow single sided or double with the scallops? Can't wait to hear about cabling that Inuit bow. Make sure you get good draw weight figures before and after!
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damn it man i cant keep up ! i love the attention to detail , and the amount of bend in those short bows ! btw i finished the double handle glue up your method worked like a charm no delams at all . thanks
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Impressive!! to make those bows with only a few stone tools. Yep you've been busy, wouldn't mind to see some more details of those ash bows and you dont mention the lengths of the other 2 , they look pretty short though. Nice work
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Thanks for the comments, like I said it was fun.
Ken, the ottawa scallops get smaller as you go toward the tip (Annishanabii), and the Chippewa bows were only scalloped on one side
Dragonman, the ottawa ash is 45", the black walnut is 46", chippewa double curve is 48" and the chippewa staright bow is 53", and the oak cable backed is 49".
Here's some detail shots: The carving on the ottawa was done with the saw/ file (chert knife) in the pics the black is charcoal and the finish made from fat. The pale green color is made from gree basswood leaves.....the red and dk green on the chippewa are acrylic paint because I aint figured out how to make that yet.
Rich
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here's the rest of 'em
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Wow! :o
Really like all of tham! Great work!
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Partner you are a machine!
Never stop. I can why you have to post NOT for BOM, Because you would be there all of the time.....
Thanks for the teaching in pics.
Ron
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Awesome work, Even more impressive given your tool choice. Too bad you don't want your work included in BOM, you would get my vote for sure.
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Hey Rich looks like Im going to have to make u a big Onondaga blade! That should help! Also an axe...again excellent work my friend! TTYL...
Russ
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Love these Bows!!!
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More incredible artwork/bowmaking from a fantastic guy. Your an inspiration on many levels. Thank you for continuing to share, my friend.
-Doug
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Excellent bows and very well done. Jawge
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Great looking weapons and craftsmanship Half Eye.
Tracy
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absolutely fantastic!!! Man, I got to start shrinking the length of my D bows. Thanks for posting, inspirational to say the least.
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Amazing work, Rich! Ever considered making a stone tool bow build a long? I'd be there for sure!
Frode
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Very impressive bows, I would pic those bone points any day, they go through wood really well also. :)
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Great stuff as always.
One day I'd like to go into the woods with just stoneage tools and make a bow from scratch. Dunno if I'll ever do it, the saw and steel axe are a bit too tempting.
Del
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Excellent work my friend. You truly are an amazing bowyer.
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Rich,
Incredible work man. As much as I've come to like the laminates and R/Ds and stuff it's nice to see some real primitive bows. I do have a question though. Your bows seem to do a LOT of work in the middle of the bow and don't seem to bend much in the mid limbs. Is there a reason for that? Have you found advantages to that tiller style?
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I have noticed that too, NTD. But I see a normal amount of set and no chrysals or signs of overstress. I like the look of the tiller.
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NTD & all,
I think the pics may just look like that. My rigid handled bows are not really 100% rigid. The grips are more "bulbous" than thick and that makes the fade really gradual. I like to feel the "bend" just barely start at the grip and go out. I also usually make the tips "stiff" even if they are straight.
I do all my personal tillering "under-tension" and not on a tree. I try to make the bends symetrical in appearance, but also go by "feel" of the draw. What I mean by that is that I like to feel the "weight" even all the way back, right from brace. That's how I get the whole bow to work and get pretty fair draw lengths from shorter length bows. Maybe a better way to say it is that instead of my limbs bending at the tips and weight and curve progressing toward the handle I like the feel of the bend starting in the whole limb and staying that way all the way back.
They may not look like it but I do try to get even bends, and a lot of my bows are not "recurves" so the stiff tips are to add some speed to the bow, but the "all at the same time bends" produce excellent "cast" and that is my main concern since most of my bows are for hunting (I want the driving power).
The only other thing that might make them look funny is I make the limbs even length and tiller for the asymetry of the arrow pass being above true center.
Rich
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Thank you Rich. It must be the way the pics come out or even that the bows are so short ;D You definitely have an even tiller and you know what you're doing so I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. Thanks again.
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Rich you make beautiful bows...I also use no tiller tree just go by feel and draw. You have skill I hope one day to achieve...I'd be scared making a 48" bow drawing 27 inches lol.
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Sorry I missed this one, too. You've done some incredible things here Rich. Thanks for sharing.
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Great looking bows there, I had a question about what you wrote "I like to feel the "weight" even all the way back, right from brace". Do you mean you pull it back to the full draw length as soon as you get it floor tillered and string it up? I hate to use a tree because you can't take it everywhere and sticks just cheese me off. I would like to figure out how to tiller without one, but then I think about one of the limbs conking me in the gourd and that doesn't sound cool to me. I saw one guy at one of the gatherings looking at his shadow, is that a good way to do it or is there a better one?
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Michael,
That staement was regarding the actual tiller of the limb because some fellas thought I was putting all of the bend at the grip/fades. I tiller the bows' weight and curve profile to be even in the whole limb, not progressive.
As to the method of tillering, I basically hack & slash till the bow will bend enough to string it with tension.....sometimes the string is nearly flat to the bow sometimes a couple of inches......then I put a 6-8 inch 1x2 between the string and center of the bow and start scraping to even the limb symetry.....when they are symetrical I just keep evenly scraping to increase the draw length and draw weight to suit the purpose. At a certain point the 6-8" stick wants to fall out so go to a 12-16 incher and start the process all over again. When that second 1x2 is getting loose I will remove it and short draw the bow to get a feel for its weight and wether or not it's pulling smoothly.
At this point I go to a 1x2 thats about 24" long and start over again. If your draw is a pretty basic 26 to 28 this will be your last stick....if you are making 30+ inch draw bows you will ahve to go one stick bigger.
After you install one of the sticks, I place the bow with one end against a solid object (mop board, wall, tree....whatever) and the other end I push into with my pants belt (about at the hip) Then simply scrape "X" amount of times....reverse the bow and do the same to the other limb ( usually 20 scrapes per limb is necessary to see noticable changes ). When your finished with both limbs hold the bow at arms length and "eye-ball" for symetry....if it's good then repeat step one, if not then scrape the offending area and then go back to doing both limbs.
By tillering under tension I feel that I get a truer picture of the tiller.....and the bow is not constantly being flexed, relaxed flexed etc. ( with tiller trees....your told to "excercise the bow after scraping before going on) well the stick and string does away with all that.....this way also tends to stop ya from pulling too far too soon and producing set or breakage....
Anyway , you asked so thats how and why I do it this way.....added bonus is that you can tiller anywhere, and do so properly.
Rich
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Cool bows Rich, Thanks for sharring !
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Reads sound to me, thanks for the info and a long explanation is never a bad thing. I like having to much info than not enough.
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Very nice work Rich.
I was wondering though. Could you quote your sources for the scalloped bows. All the research I have done on those types of bows say that the Seneca, Fox, Iroquois and a couple other tribes made them but I've yet to come cross any reference that the Ojibwa made them
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I know because I grew up looking at them in Display Cases....that the Menominee...Ottowa (Odawa)....Pottowatomi...and Ojibwe Indians of the Upper Peninsula all made Bows with Scallops on one side...whether the Ojibwe of Canada were in to this Style of Bow I do not know...but these 4 Tribes lived closely together for many centuries ...and may have shared and swapped Bow designs...I know that in the Historical Museum on the Keewenaw Bay Reservation in Baraga Michigan and the Museum in Marquette...you can see the Scalloped Bows from the Upper Michigan Tribes...I have never seen a Bow from any of these Tribes Scalloped on both sides...for the best of my knowlege....only the Fox did this....
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Hey Marc
Got my info on the Odawa, and Ojibwa bows from the horse's mouth. My source is Mr. Jay Sam (Little River Band of Odawa). There are also actual examples as El Destructo says at several Michigan Museums (including Native American). That's for the bows with the single scalloped side. Mr. Jay Sam and the Musee McCord showing an example of an Annishinabee bow scalloped on both sides. (Photo attached). That bow is attributed to Wallpoll Island.
I mentioned the fact that there is very little literature on Odawa artifacts, simply because the early whites lumped everybody in this area together as Ojibwa, and generally speaking the Odawa were considered by most whites (English) as "hostile savages" and that persisted from Potiac's wars against Fort Detroit right through to the US Military's attempts to roust them out of what's now Michigan and Wisconsin up to Minnesota. A few (not many) of the Odawa were finally rounded up and sent to Oklahoma....and those bows were completely different than the originals.
Rich
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I know because I grew up looking at them in Display Cases....that the Menominee...Ottowa (Odawa)....Pottowatomi...and Ojibwe Indians of the Upper Peninsula all made Bows with Scallops on one side...whether the Ojibwe of Canada were in to this Style of Bow I do not know...but these 4 Tribes lived closely together for many centuries ...and may have shared and swapped Bow designs...I know that in the Historical Museum on the Keewenaw Bay Reservation in Baraga Michigan and the Museum in Marquette...you can see the Scalloped Bows from the Upper Michigan Tribes...I have never seen a Bow from any of these Tribes Scalloped on both sides...for the best of my knowlege....only the Fox did this....
That doesn't mean that much. I can show you a lot of pictures of bows that are displayed in a local museum but mostly all are of tribes other than Algonquin. Just to show you how little the people that work in this museum know, they labelled a totem stick as an Indian fly swatter.
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Hey Marc
Got my info on the Odawa, and Ojibwa bows from the horse's mouth. My source is Mr. Jay Sam (Little River Band of Odawa). There are also actual examples as El Destructo says at several Michigan Museums (including Native American). That's for the bows with the single scalloped side. Mr. Jay Sam and the Musee McCord showing an example of an Annishinabee bow scalloped on both sides. (Photo attached). That bow is attributed to Wallpoll Island.
I mentioned the fact that there is very little literature on Odawa artifacts, simply because the early whites lumped everybody in this area together as Ojibwa, and generally speaking the Odawa were considered by most whites (English) as "hostile savages" and that persisted from Potiac's wars against Fort Detroit right through to the US Military's attempts to roust them out of what's now Michigan and Wisconsin up to Minnesota. A few (not many) of the Odawa were finally rounded up and sent to Oklahoma....and those bows were completely different than the originals.
Rich
That's interesting but if you go here http://research.amnh.org/anthropology/database/collections and do a search on Ojibwa bows and of the bows that come up none have scallops
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Marc,
Don't want to argue with ya, just answered your question about what I based my bows on. I can't say what you may or may-not have found but I'm going to take Jays word for it. The bow and war (turtle calw arrows) arrows are displayed at the Little River Band Headquarters, and the Odawa accept them as authentic examples. I'm proud of that.
Rich
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;)
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Bows that were made within the last 100 years or so cannot be used as historic examples. Anyone can take a fancy to the scalloped bow and say that this is what their ancestors made, even me. You need historical proof and I've yet to see some of that.
As an example, there was a Penobscot native that came to the PA board many years ago. He said that there were rumours in the tribe that the Penobscot double bow was actually a recent "invention" by a tribal member about 100 years ago, give or take. That kind of throws a monkey wrench into the idea that the double bow was a historic example of a Penobscot.
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I know because I grew up looking at them in Display Cases....that the Menominee...Ottowa (Odawa)....Pottowatomi...and Ojibwe Indians of the Upper Peninsula all made Bows with Scallops on one side...whether the Ojibwe of Canada were in to this Style of Bow I do not know...but these 4 Tribes lived closely together for many centuries ...and may have shared and swapped Bow designs...I know that in the Historical Museum on the Keewenaw Bay Reservation in Baraga Michigan and the Museum in Marquette...you can see the Scalloped Bows from the Upper Michigan Tribes...I have never seen a Bow from any of these Tribes Scalloped on both sides...for the best of my knowlege....only the Fox did this....
Mike. You may see a division at the border and think of them as "the Ojibwa of Canada" but a few hundred years ago the Ojibwa did not. They were all one nation
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I do understand that Marc...but what I was getting at is that the Tribes that were nearer the Menominee and Pottowatomi Tribes of Lower Michigan and Wisconsin probably traded Bows and Ideas more easily than the farther North Bands of Ojibwe ...so it is possible that their styles of Bows were adopted by them...so maybe not being a truly Ojibwe Design...they were still an Ojibwe Bow...even though they were introduced to them from outside the Tribe...just my thoughts on the matter
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I do understand that Marc...but what I was getting at is that the Tribes that were nearer the Menominee and Pottowatomi Tribes of Lower Michigan and Wisconsin probably traded Bows and Ideas more easily than the farther North Bands of Ojibwe ...so it is possible that their styles of Bows were adopted by them...so maybe not being a truly Ojibwe Design...they were still an Ojibwe Bow...even though they were introduced to them from outside the Tribe...just my thoughts on the matter
Entirely possible and that thought has crossed my mind before as well.
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Pardon for coming into this debate but might we consider that this is not so much a matter of whether or not the Ottawa used this style of bow, but when? It is entirely possible that Rich's Ottawa friend clearly and accurately remembers his tribe using this style bow and could be passed on for a generation or two before that, and this could still be a relatively late adoption to the tribes history, say, within the last 150 years.
While it is much more difficult (and possibly impossible) to prove (or disprove) the use of scallops in Ottawa design before Columbus, we have about as much 'evidence' to prove that they did as much as we do that they did not. We also have to consider that while some Ottawa chose to use the scalloped design, some others did not, preferring a more Seneca-like design. It would be as if two thousand years from now, an archaeologist uncovered a Winchester rifle. He would come to the conclusion that Americans of the Southwest used this design, when in fact plenty of people used Remington shotguns. Ok, maybe a bad example, but I think the point is made anyway. If we found a pile of Ottawa bows buried in a peet bog we might have a better idea of what they used regularly, but we don't have that luxury.
Archaeology is the science of rubbish, and most of it is guess-work after that. Still, this is certainly worth further investigation. I know I'm interested.
Rich, anyone written a doctoral dissertation on Ottawa bows? :) Might have to consider this for myself... >:D
Does anyone have a copy of Alleley's Encyclopedia of Bows, Arrows and Quivers Vol. 1Northeast, Southeast and Midwest? I'm curious to know if they address these bows in that work.
-Doug
PS this prof is about to go on vacation in a couple of days. Wish me and the family a good time and safe journey.
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I have that book and there are no museum pieces that show the Ojibwa made that style of bow
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Profsaffel ....there is no mention of the Ottawa (Odawa) Bows in the Encyclopedia of Native American Bows,Arrows and Quivers by Allely and Hamm....but then the Odawa were not a big Tribe to begin with...probably less than 8,000 in 1600 before contact
Canada currently has more than 4,000 Ottawa.... mostly with the Ontario First Nations on Cockburn.... Manitoulin.... and Walpole Islands..... There are another 10,000 Ottawa in the United States..... Although the Ottawa have signed 24 treaties with the United States, most groups have not had federal recognition since the 1860s...... Only two Ottawa groups presently have this status..... Ottawa Tribe of Oklahoma with 400 members; and the Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians of Michigan...... The 9,000 members of the Northern Michigan Ottawa Association are one of the largest groups of Native Americans in the United States without federal recognition.
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anyone have any Goodies ?